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Can salvation be lost

Discussion in 'Christian Spirituality Forum' started by charity, May 1, 2021 at 11:58 AM.

  1. mailmandan

    mailmandan Well-Known Member

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    Notice that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation. So "type 2 works salvation" is not being taught here. The idea is to progress to the finish or completion in spiritual growth and maturity. This process is what the Bible calls "ongoing sanctification." When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. In verse 13, Paul further says - for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
     
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  2. Daniel Veler

    Daniel Veler Active Member

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    Why listen to scholars. You have the Holy Spirit he will teach you all truth. You need man not teach you anything after receiving Christ.
     
  3. mailmandan

    mailmandan Well-Known Member

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    I commonly hear three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it "unequivocally" teaches a really "saved" person truly "lost their salvation."

    In regards to the never truly saved view, the words, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

    In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive..

    Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some mental assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these factors may be genuine Christians, yet these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of the Christian life (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in (Hebrews 10:39).

    These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responded to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or have "received the Spirit's pledge which is the guarantee of future inheritance." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

    In regards to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we merely "taste" into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    Those in Matthew 7:22-23 prophesied, cast out demons, performed works in Jesus' name, but were not saved. Jesus NEVER knew them and referred to them as "workers of iniquity" (v. 23). Such people certainly would have experienced what we read in Hebrews 6:4-6, yet were not genuine believers. It's not hard to find those types of people in Matthew 7:22-23 (which even sounds descriptive of word of faith teachers) on TBN.

    In regards to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for your argument.

    In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is a sign of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.

    *Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

    It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.
     
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  4. mailmandan

    mailmandan Well-Known Member

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    The Holy Spirit does teach me. (1 John 2:27) I just pointed out some comments from AT Robertson because he made a very good point. ;)
     
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  5. mailmandan

    mailmandan Well-Known Member

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    How about a little context. 1 Corinthians 9:16 - For when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, since I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! 17 If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. 18 What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel. Notice that verse 24 says, "Do you not know that those who run in a race ALL run, but ONLY ONE receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it." In an Olympic race, all runners run but only one receives the gold medal.

    So what happens to the runners that receive the silver medal or bronze medal or finish the race with no medal? Are they disqualified from the Olympics or from the prize, receiving the gold medal? In context, Paul is talking about being disqualified for the prize and a prize is something that you work for and earn where a gift is something that you freely accept without merit. Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph. That doesn't sound like a free gift (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8). 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 mentions - If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, (of reward) though he himself will be saved.
     
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  6. kcnalp

    kcnalp Well-Known Member

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    "2 Every branch in Me"

    Yep, that's Christians!
     
  7. mailmandan

    mailmandan Well-Known Member

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    I can see that everything I explained to you in post #78 just went right over your head. Let's try it again:

    When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

    John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

    *So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established.*
     
  8. kcnalp

    kcnalp Well-Known Member

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    I hope OSASers are right! I can't lose if I'm wrong. But OSASers who tell new Christians that it's impossible for them to be lost again will have blood on their hands on Judgment Day! OSAS is a SCAM! One OSASer here even said unbelievers go to Heaven.
     
  9. kcnalp

    kcnalp Well-Known Member

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    Unbelievers are not "IN CHRIST"! It's clearly referring to Christians!
     
  10. Truman the Levite

    Truman the Levite Well-Known Member

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  11. Truman the Levite

    Truman the Levite Well-Known Member

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    ...lol
     
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  12. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the humor, Ron. :)

    These threads are usually always so serious and abrasive. Nice to see someone not taking things quite so seriously, LoL.

    P.S. Please don't create a video where you sing that song on guitar, or I will seriously disown you, LoL. :p
     
  13. mailmandan

    mailmandan Well-Known Member

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    I certainly don't believe that unbelievers will go to Heaven. (John 3:18) My view on OSAS lines up with "preservation of the saints" and not salvation for unbelievers. Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
     
  14. Truman the Levite

    Truman the Levite Well-Known Member

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    A car will get you from A to B. You don't have to build it, and you don't have to understand all the nut and bolt workings of it. You just have to know how to drive it. :)
     
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  15. kcnalp

    kcnalp Well-Known Member

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    Of course God doesn't forsake His people. But they can certainly forsake Him!
     
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  16. Truman the Levite

    Truman the Levite Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad for the levity...but the truth of the matter is I did lose my hairbrush!
    Make a video of it? I never thought about that...thanks! :)
     
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  17. Truman the Levite

    Truman the Levite Well-Known Member

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    Oh where...oh brother, where art my hairbrush?!
     
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  18. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    LoL!
    Yes. But not everyone has passed their spiritual driver's test yet.


    [​IMG]
     
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  19. mailmandan

    mailmandan Well-Known Member

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    You continue to miss the point. Go back and read post #78 slowly and carefully.
     
  20. mailmandan

    mailmandan Well-Known Member

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    Is that what we read in Psalm 37:28? God said that He preserves His saints forever. How long is forever? Do you believe God?
     
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