Can the dead communicate with the living?

[Taken]

You are mistaken, Taken.

Uh, No.

The story of Jesus in Luke 16:19-31 was a known myth

So you think Jesus spoke Falsely...

I don't!

John 14:
[6] Jesus saith ...I am ...the truth...

To take this story and attempt to make it say the dead are not dead is playing the Devil's game....

That is not what I said!

And Jesus does NOT Lie!

 

[quietthinker]

That is not what I said!

And Jesus does NOT Lie!

You quoted Luke 16:19-31

If you are not quoting Jesus' story in Luke 16:19-31 to say the dead are not dead then what are you quoting it to say?

 

[Taken]

Yes, everything that breathes has soul. But what made Adam special? What happened when God breathed into his nostrils and he became a "living soul"? All souls are alive in one way. That means to me that while the animals were alive and had souls, Adam became alive in another way and thus his soul was alive in a way the animals' weren't.

Yes animals have souls.
Animals were not created in the image of God.
Animals were not made in Gods Likeness to Know Good and Evil.
Animals can not reason a belief in God.
Animals can not sin, thus their soul does not require Saving.

The disciples were already alive (in one way) when Jesus breathed on them. Why did he do that?

Jesus tells us Why.
Jesus is sending them as Jesus was Sent.
Jesus was Sent, With the Word of God.

John 20:
[21] Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

Jesus breathed ON them.
God many times has been "with" men, "as" they are "Sent" to accomplish a task, the Lord God Sends them to do.


John 20:
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

John 14:
[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

In Acts, we learn (After Jesus left Earth), the Disciples receive the Indwelling, Spirit of God.

The disciples were alive in one way, and Jesus made them alive in another -- their souls which had been mortal received the Holy Spirit which made them "living souls." Jesus said that those who receive him would never die.

No.
Their bodies were alive.
Their souls were alive.

The Holy Spirit "on" a man, is the Holy Spirit with a man.

Souls are not mortal.
Body's are mortal ...which means they Must Die.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

You quoted Luke 16:19-31

If you are not quoting Jesus' story in Luke 16:19-31 to say the dead are not dead then what are you quoting it to say?

Yes I quoted JESUS speaking.
Jesus does Not speak, what is NOT True.

Luke 16: 19-31 says nothing about the Dead, not being Dead, and neither did I.

Abraham's Body died and was buried.
The Rich man's Body died and was buried.

In hell, Abraham's Saved Living soul was having a conversation with an UnSaved Living soul.

Body's are of Dust and return to dust.
Souls are from God...and depart a Dying Body, and...
* IF Saved, the Living soul is Escorted by Angels, to Paradise.
* IF UnSaved, the Living soul is Sent to hell.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[DNB]

“The Scripture account of Saul’s visit to the woman of Endor has been a source of perplexity to many students of the Bible. There are some who take the position that Samuel was actually present at the interview with Saul, but the Bible itself furnishes sufficient ground for a contrary conclusion. If, as claimed by some, Samuel was in heaven, he must have been summoned thence, either by the power of God or by that of Satan. None can believe for a moment that Satan had power to call the holy prophet of God from heaven to honor the incantations of an abandoned woman. Nor can we conclude that God summoned him to the witch’s cave; for the Lord had already refused to communicate with Saul, by dreams, by Urim, or by prophets. 1 Samuel 28:6. These were God’s own appointed mediums of communication, and He did not pass them by to deliver the message through the agent of Satan.

The message itself is sufficient evidence of its origin. Its object was not to lead Saul to repentance, but to urge him on to ruin; and this is not the work of God, but of Satan.
Furthermore, the act of Saul in consulting a sorceress is cited in Scripture as one reason why he was rejected by God and abandoned to destruction: “Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it; and inquired not of the Lord: therefore He slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.” 1 Chronicles 10:13, 14. Here it is distinctly stated that Saul inquired of the familiar spirit, not of the Lord. He did not communicate with Samuel, the prophet of God; but through the sorceress he held intercourse with Satan. Satan could not present the real Samuel, but he did present a counterfeit, that served his purpose of deception.......cont.

Although @quietthinker , you correctly addressed this issue at a fundamental level, that God does not collude with spiritists and mediums, and that Samuel was resigned to never consult with Saul ever again, all which are true facts, you overlooked the distinct peculiarities of the passage.
The witch was surprised and overwhelmed by what she seemingly had conjured up by her own power, and that the oracles of the spirit of Samuel were, first of all, correct, and secondly, unobtainable without divine inspiration and insight.
I believe what occurred here, was God exploiting a situation that had a nefarious intent behind it, and using it to first, affirm that it is only through Him that the fate of man can be determined, and secondly, to underscore the divine auspices that Samuel had ministered under and repudiated Saul with. God, in this distinctly unique and ignoble circumstance, intervened in an unprecedented manner to further denounce the reign of Saul.

This is somewhat analogous to the rebuke of Balaam by his donkey. One could argue, for example, that since animals are irrefutably not created in the image of God, they do not have the capacity to make such a reasonable or insightful remark, and therefore, Balaam through a guilty conscience, merely imagined the words spoken to him by his beast of burden.
You are arguing your case by the same restricted overview of the entire context.

 

[charity]

Luke 16: 19-31

'For in death there is no remembrance of Thee:
in the grave who shall give Thee thanks?'
(Psa 6:5)

'Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might;
for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom,
in the grave, whither thou goest.'
(Ecc 9:10)

Hello @Taken,

Yes, I agree with @quietthinker regarding this. The Lord is exposing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees' teaching.

Thank you for drawing our attention to this in relation to this subject though: for the very fact that the characters within it are said to be conscious and able to communicate is a denial of the testimony of Scripture, and that in itself should make us stop and take stock concerning the purpose of this story, told by the Lord.

Thank you
Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Our Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[Giuliano]

The word says it was Samuel. Be that as it may, when I hear grieving relatives say they've talked with their deceased I know they have been duped by deceiving spirits, aka the spirits of dead Nephilim. Necromancy is strictly forbidden by God. Shalom.

I had stopped grieving for my Father -- and that didn't stop him from showing up one day.

I inherited a car from him when he died. My sister and I lived in the same time and were visiting my Mother -- my sister drove me over so I could pick the car up and drive it back. The car couldn't be driven. It had a broken tie-rod and wobbled all over the road. People had said my Father was too old to drive, blaming him for how the car weaved around; but I found out it was the car. His mechanic must have been grossly incompetent. I dropped the car off at a garage a few miles down the road and my sister drove me home.

The car got fixed and I drove it. Then one day, while I was delivering newspapers, an old couple rear-ended me. The cops came to fill out a report; and as I was talking to them, my Father showed up, saying, "So that's how it ended." It was awkward, to say the least, trying to hold two conversations at the same time -- one mental with my Father, and the one with the cops. I knew the cops would think I was crazy if I said I needed to talk to someone they couldn't see -- they might have thought the accident drove me mental.

My Father had worried about me. He had known it wasn't safe, so he worried. He was so relieved I hadn't killed myself because the car was dangerous when he died and I inherited it. I told him mentally he had been worried over nothing, that I had had it repaired.

He also turned up one night when I was sleeping to apologize to me for something else that he felt had been his fault. I understood what he meant. He had done some wrong things; but he hadn't hurt me way he thought he may have.

Mind now, I didn't try to invoke him. He came to visit me.

I don't know if I should tell the story about when he died. I knew someone had died, but the message I got from "the other side" wasn't that clear. I thought a dear woman who I knew was very ill had died and gone to Heaven. My three sisters had tried to call me to tell me he had died but couldn't reach me since I was driving to our Mother's house. When I got there, my youngest sister came running out of the house looking troubled. She said, "I have something to tell you." Immediately, I knew what it was, and I said, "You don't need to, I know; Daddy is dead." She was really surprised. "But there's no way you could know that." But there was -- and I'm glad it happened that way, since it assured my sisters and Mother he had arrived safely in Heaven.

I also saw him once in Paradise. He also showed up once for one of my sisters.

I was caught up one night in the spirit and surprised to see an aunt who had died. Like an idiot, I said, "But I thought you were dead." She laughed -- and I've never met anyone who laughed the same way she did -- it was her -- and she said, "I guess some people would call it that."

She was with other people however, and she told me it would be better if I left -- not to annoy the people with her. She was right, too. It's better for us if we stay on our side and let the "dead" stay on their side. It's definitely wrong to try to talk to "dead" people trying to get them to predict the future.

I have other stories, but I doubt people would be convinced -- people believe what they believe, and what I say probably isn't going to change anyone's mind.

 

[Giuliano]

'For in death there is no remembrance of Thee:
in the grave who shall give Thee thanks?'
(Psa 6:5)

'Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might;
for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom,
in the grave, whither thou goest.'
(Ecc 9:10)

Hello @Taken,

Yes, I agree with @quietthinker regarding this. The Lord is exposing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees' teaching.

Thank you for drawing our attention to this in relation to this subject though: for the very fact that the characters within it are said to be conscious and able to communicate is a denial of the testimony of Scripture, and that in itself should make us stop and take stock concerning the purpose of this story, told by the Lord.

Thank you
Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Our Lord and Head.
Chris

You know Jonah visited sheol for three days and three nights. . . . Jonah was however able to remember God.

 

[Taken]

'For in death there is no remembrance of Thee:
in the grave who shall give Thee thanks?'
(Psa 6:5)

'Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might;
for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom,
in the grave, whither thou goest.'
(Ecc 9:10)

Hello @Taken,

Yes, I agree with @quietthinker regarding this. The Lord is exposing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees' teaching.

Thank you for drawing our attention to this in relation to this subject though: for the very fact that the characters within it are said to be conscious and able to communicate is a denial of the testimony of Scripture, and that in itself should make us stop and take stock concerning the purpose of this story, told by the Lord.

Thank you
Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Our Lord and Head.
Chris

From your comment:
(regarding Luke 16: 19-31)
It looks as if your opinion is:

1) you agree with quietthinker.
2) Pharisees came up with the hypocritical notion,
Living souls depart a dead body.
3) souls die and are buried in a grave
4) Jesus (who is the Truth), madeup a lie, about living souls in hell, to prove that the Pharasies were lying, by saying souls remain Living after the Body dies.

Is that correct?
Thanks
Taken

 

[Waiting on him]

You know Jonah visited sheol for three days and three nights. . . . Jonah was however able to remember God.

Well, he had to lose his life in order to find it, he wasn’t like todays christian.

 

[quietthinker]

I had stopped grieving for my Father -- and that didn't stop him from showing up one day.

I inherited a car from him when he died. My sister and I lived in the same time and were visiting my Mother -- my sister drove me over so I could pick the car up and drive it back. The car couldn't be driven. It had a broken tie-rod and wobbled all over the road. People had said my Father was too old to drive, blaming him for how the car weaved around; but I found out it was the car. His mechanic must have been grossly incompetent. I dropped the car off at a garage a few miles down the road and my sister drove me home.

The car got fixed and I drove it. Then one day, while I was delivering newspapers, an old couple rear-ended me. The cops came to fill out a report; and as I was talking to them, my Father showed up, saying, "So that's how it ended." It was awkward, to say the least, trying to hold two conversations at the same time -- one mental with my Father, and the one with the cops. I knew the cops would think I was crazy if I said I needed to talk to someone they couldn't see -- they might have thought the accident drove me mental.

My Father had worried about me. He had known it wasn't safe, so he worried. He was so relieved I hadn't killed myself because the car was dangerous when he died and I inherited it. I told him mentally he had been worried over nothing, that I had had it repaired.

He also turned up one night when I was sleeping to apologize to me for something else that he felt had been his fault. I understood what he meant. He had done some wrong things; but he hadn't hurt me way he thought he may have.

Mind now, I didn't try to invoke him. He came to visit me.

I don't know if I should tell the story about when he died. I knew someone had died, but the message I got from "the other side" wasn't that clear. I thought a dear woman who I knew was very ill had died and gone to Heaven. My three sisters had tried to call me to tell me he had died but couldn't reach me since I was driving to our Mother's house. When I got there, my youngest sister came running out of the house looking troubled. She said, "I have something to tell you." Immediately, I knew what it was, and I said, "You don't need to, I know; Daddy is dead." She was really surprised. "But there's no way you could know that." But there was -- and I'm glad it happened that way, since it assured my sisters and Mother he had arrived safely in Heaven.

I also saw him once in Paradise. He also showed up once for one of my sisters.

I was caught up one night in the spirit and surprised to see an aunt who had died. Like an idiot, I said, "But I thought you were dead." She laughed -- and I've never met anyone who laughed the same way she did -- it was her -- and she said, "I guess some people would call it that."

She was with other people however, and she told me it would be better if I left -- not to annoy the people with her. She was right, too. It's better for us if we stay on our side and let the "dead" stay on their side. It's definitely wrong to try to talk to "dead" people trying to get them to predict the future.

I have other stories, but I doubt people would be convinced -- people believe what they believe, and what I say probably isn't going to change anyone's mind.

The power of it!...we believe our senses rather than the word of God and so we become sitting ducks for deception.

I'm sure Jesus didn't conjure up Satan in the wilderness.....he just appeared.

 

[charity]

[QUOTE="Giuliano, post: 834082, member: 8320"
]You know Jonah visited sheol for three days and three nights. . . . Jonah was however able to remember God.
[/QUOTE]
'Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD,
and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I,
and thou heardest my voice.'
(Jonah 2:1-2)

Hello @Giuliano,

If Jonah was able to pray then he was not dead. He was in the belly of the whale, which God had provisioned for him. He likened it to the grave (sheol translated 'Hell'), for he was hidden away in a place where only the dead would normally occupy.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

From your comment: (regarding Luke 16: 19-31)
It looks as if your opinion is:

1) you agree with quietthinker.
2) Pharisees came up with the hypocritical notion,
Living souls depart a dead body.
3) souls die and are buried in a grave
4) Jesus (who is the Truth), madeup a lie, about living souls in hell, to prove that the Pharasies were lying, by saying souls remain Living after the Body dies.

Is that correct?
Thanks
Taken

Hello @Taken,

In reply#100 @quietthinker said, (quote)
'The story of Jesus in Luke 16:19-31 was a known myth and understood to be so. He told it to make a point not to give a dissertation on the state of the dead. His point being, if you don't believe the scriptures neither will you believe if a miracle is done. He says so clearly in verse 31. To take this story and attempt to make it say the dead are not dead is playing the Devil's game....it is reiterating his lie to Eve 'thou shalt not surely die''

* This is what I agreed with @quietthinker about, Taken.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[quietthinker]

Uh, No.



So you think Jesus spoke Falsely...

I don't!

John 14:
[6] Jesus saith ...I am ...the truth...




That is not what I said!

And Jesus does NOT Lie!

When you tell a joke Taken or use a figure of speech to make a point or illustrate something, are you speaking falsely?

 

[Taken]

When you tell a joke Taken or use a figure of speech to make a point or illustrate something, are you speaking falsely?

I am not called "the Truth".
I am not "All knowing."

I can speak according to the limit of my knowledge, learn something new tommorow and have a new Truth.

^^ That did not, does not apply to Jesus.
If He said something it is True. Period.

If you can not believe What He said IS True...
Then how could you believe, He is The Truth?

The dilemma, is with you, not me.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[quietthinker]

I am not called "the Truth".
I am not "All knowing."

I can speak according to the limit of my knowledge, learn something new tommorow and have a new Truth.

^^ That did not, does not apply to Jesus.
If He said something it is True. Period.

If you can not believe What He said IS True...
Then how could you believe, He is The Truth?

The dilemma, is with you, not me.

Glory to God,
Taken

Denial is convenient in retaining that which one refuses to acknowledge. It does come at a cost though and that is, the sticky web of falsehoods traps its victim in the labyrinth of self justification.

 

[Taken]

Denial is convenient in retaining that which one refuses to acknowledge. It does come at a cost though and that is, the sticky web of falsehoods traps its victim in the labyrinth of self justification.

Denial certainly can be an issue.

I did not quote some random sticky web of falsehood.

Jesus IS the Truth. I believe that. I have stated that.

(You have not stated that, nor agreed, when I stated that).

So Confess or Deny...IS According to your Belief...Jesus the Truth? If so, stop side stepping, use your words and Say it.

Taken

 

[quietthinker]

Denial certainly can be an issue.

I did not quote some random sticky web of falsehood.

Jesus IS the Truth. I believe that. I have stated that.

(You have not stated that, nor agreed, when I stated that).

So Confess or Deny...IS According to your Belief...Jesus the Truth? If so, stop side stepping, use your words and Say it.

Taken

Sounds like the inquisition!

 

[Brakelite]

Truth... Understanding... Revelation... Becomes unattainable the moment we demand from others that they surrender their individual sovereignty to our own lordship. We at that time ensnare others and trap them in our own labyrinths of half truths and unending rabbit warrens. The dead burying the dead in self made graves.