Can the dead communicate with the living?

[Giuliano]

One cannot escape from or reason away the inevitable question that arises when this topic is discussed. That question rests on the veracity of God's word. Because the general consensus by majority opinion revealed on this thread is that God has lied. When His word says the soul that sins shall die, (Ezek.18:20) and that there is only one Who is immortal, God, (1Tim.6:16) , coupled with God's revealed mechanism for the dead to live again only through Resurrection (John 5:25-29). So whoever dies, is awakened at the Resurrection, and only in response to one voice, (John 11:25; Daniel 12:1-3; 1Thess.4:13-18;
KJV Job 19:25-27
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.).

To reach that a mere human witch can summon the dead... Or that the dead can appear and talk to the living of their own volition is occult and spiritualism, and ground for many false doctrines and suppositions and the gateway for all manner of deception... Such as Marian apparitions etc etc.
Souls (another word for living being) die. Bodies die and decay away. The spirit which is granted man to give him life returns to God. There is nothing in scripture to suggest these spirits are sentient beings. Or that they turn into angels. Or that they can and do continue to communicate with people.
Samuel was dead. Nothing suggests that God raised him from the dead and then died again. The witch didn't even recognise Saul, yet she recognised Samuel? She, and Saul, were mistaken. It was a demon. No way was God going to give any veracity to a practice He called an abomination. As He said through Daniel later...
KJV Daniel 2:27-28
27 Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king;
28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;

Is God so inconsistent as to give validity to a witch to raise the dead, but not too give validity to a bunch of them to decipher a mere dream?

I must object to citing that passage from Job out of context. It's from chapter 19 when Job is still afflicted and confused somewhat. He's largely right, but he also misses the mark somewhat. What does Job say after the LORD shows up for him?

Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

Let us not get stuck then in Job's earlier speech where he says, "I shall see for myself." It was possible for Job to see for himself even before his body died. Job has been transformed: Now he can ask God and get answers. Before when he was questioning things, he had some wrong ideas and his questions were inappropriate.

Note too that I said a part of him which should have been allowed to rest until the resurrection was vexed by the medium wanting to talk to him. I don't think he wasn't resurrected by anyone -- but perhaps that depends on what we mean by resurrection.

 

[Taken]

You can look it up. He is telling the truth.

Maybe you have a link? I have had no success in finding viable information.

 

[Giuliano]

People presume that they, born of their mothers, are not beasts, that they have somehow in the image of God. That image was lost to mankind when Adam and Eve disobeyed to them and to all of their offspring. There is such a thing as redemption and being born anew or from above, but it is not equivalent to being born from the coupling of a carnal man and a carnal woman. Without God we are dead indeed, and/or beasts indeed that "goeth downward to the earth"!

Great post, let me continue along that line. I think the symbols of fire and salt help explain it too.

Suppose we are like olive trees and able to produce oil. We would still need a spark of the Divine Fire if we want to be "creatures of fire" which help shine the Light of God. Once we receive that fire, then it is up to us to act like trees in the dirt -- growing olives so we don't run out of oil. It is said in places that God is Light and in others that He is a fire. The same is said of angels. Which is it? It is both, I think.

The Light comes down, and the flames go up. "Did not our heart burn within us" is always a good place to be, since the human heart is still on fire, returning "something" to God in the form of praise or glory. The saint can also give Light to the world.

Now of course, physical salt cannot lose its savor, so let's not be naive and think Jesus was confused about that. But spiritual salt can lose it savor. The human heart is almost like a crystal of salt -- and ideally it is soft and malleable in a way physical salt isn't. It too has fire within it -- it is like a fiery stone. Such is the altar of God -- a stone from Heaven itself. If it has lost its savor, it is hard and brittle and dead. Just one Divine Spark can make it alive again if the Word is received properly.

Of course, there are saints who can speak the Living Word of God. When they preach the Gospel, it is with the intention of "Let there be Light." When they speak, it becomes so; and the heart ready to receive Light receives it, and the heart starts the process of being redeemed -- and bit by bit, the old heart (like brittle clay) is shattered and removed to be replaced by the "new heart." It is a miracle to me.

To be sure, everyone has received Light from Jesus himself -- everyone born into this world does. But the ways of this world can tempt children as they grow up to let that Light go out, and they are seduced into thinking they need to act like ravening beasts at times because it's a dog-eat-dog world. They don't want to become ravening beasts, but they fear they won't survive unless they do. The "Good News" as I see it is that God will protect us all if we don't fall prey to the fears of this world. There is no reason to betray self and God.

The saint who preaches the Gospel is giving that sinner what he always wanted all along. He always wanted to behave lovingly. He never wanted to be something he felt ashamed of. Yes, it is safe to return to that state of innocence -- becoming like a little child spiritually, wanting to love and to be loved. Will such a person who lost his own light by being deceived fall for the same trick from the Dark Side again? Maybe a few, but I doubt many would. They know what they lost when they were deceived the first time. Why do that again?

 

[Brakelite]

I must object to citing that passage from Job out of context. It's from chapter 19 when Job is still afflicted and confused somewhat. He's largely right, but he also misses the mark somewhat. What does Job say after the LORD shows up for him?

Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

Let us not get stuck then in Job's earlier speech where he says, "I shall see for myself." It was possible for Job to see for himself even before his body died. Job has been transformed: Now he can ask God and get answers. Before when he was questioning things, he had some wrong ideas and his questions were inappropriate.

Note too that I said a part of him which should have been allowed to rest until the resurrection was vexed by the medium wanting to talk to him. I don't think he wasn't resurrected by anyone -- but perhaps that depends on what we mean by resurrection.

Whether you think Job was 'confused' depends on your own mindset you take to scripture with you when you read. You have already convinced yourself that the soul is immortal and doesn't die. Therefore you read every scripture through those glasses. I believe no-one is immortal... And no part of us immortal. We do surely die. Therefore when I read the payable of the rich man and Lazarus, I look at it from that viewpoint. That there is no such thing as an immortal sinner, therefore Jesus was not preaching on the state of the dead, but using a false Jewish understanding of the afterlife as a lesson about right living. Turning their falsehood against them.. not for the first time.
God is Spirit. So when He says only I am immortal, He is saying I am the only immortal Spirit. That excludes angels including the devil. Immortality or eternal life is a gift for the redeemed and it comes to us at the second coming, after judgement. There is none in heaven now enjoying the glories of eternal life except for a select few who were either resurrected (Moses and the several who were said to be raised at the time of Jesus Resurrection,) and those taken alive who didn't see death such as Elijah and Enoch. Apparitions of departed relatives regardless of how they may look, feel, and what they may divulge, are not to be trusted. The numbers worldwide who claim such visitations destroys the credibility of scripture... And the devil loves to have it that way.

 

[Brakelite]

I must object to citing that passage from Job out of context. It's from chapter 19 when Job is still afflicted and confused somewhat. He's largely right, but he also misses the mark somewhat. What does Job say after the LORD shows up for him?

Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

Let us not get stuck then in Job's earlier speech where he says, "I shall see for myself." It was possible for Job to see for himself even before his body died. Job has been transformed: Now he can ask God and get answers. Before when he was questioning things, he had some wrong ideas and his questions were inappropriate.

Note too that I said a part of him which should have been allowed to rest until the resurrection was vexed by the medium wanting to talk to him. I don't think he wasn't resurrected by anyone -- but perhaps that depends on what we mean by resurrection.

Job is not confused if he is in agreement with the rest of scripture. He quite clearly and lucidly states that after his body is long dead and eaten by worms, there will be a time when he shall see God in the flesh, with his own eyes. He is confessing his faith in his Redeemer, in the midst of trial and suffering. Nothing out of context there at all.

 

[Giuliano]

Whether you think Job was 'confused' depends on your own mindset you take to scripture with you when you read. You have already convinced yourself that the soul is immortal and doesn't die.

You have not been reading my posts carefully. At no time have I said the soul is immortal. Why would I say such a thing when there are places in the Bible which clearly say the soul can die.

Therefore you read every scripture through those glasses. I believe no-one is immortal... And no part of us immortal. We do surely die. Therefore when I read the payable of the rich man and Lazarus, I look at it from that viewpoint. That there is no such thing as an immortal sinner, therefore Jesus was not preaching on the state of the dead, but using a false Jewish understanding of the afterlife as a lesson about right living. Turning their falsehood against them.. not for the first time.
God is Spirit. So when He says only I am immortal, He is saying I am the only immortal Spirit. That excludes angels including the devil. Immortality or eternal life is a gift for the redeemed and it comes to us at the second coming, after judgement. There is none in heaven now enjoying the glories of eternal life except for a select few who were either resurrected (Moses and the several who were said to be raised at the time of Jesus Resurrection,) and those taken alive who didn't see death such as Elijah and Enoch. Apparitions of departed relatives regardless of how they may look, feel, and what they may divulge, are not to be trusted. The numbers worldwide who claim such visitations destroys the credibility of scripture... And the devil loves to have it that way.

You appear to be failing to differentiate between soul and spirit. Spirit is immortal. If it offends, that does not mean it ceases to exist. Some spirit returns to God and loses its individual identity. Some spirits go to the Outer Darkness, but even that is not eternal -- eventually all spirit returns to God.

Body and soul can be destroyed in hell, for sure -- so why would I think soul is immortal? Jesus came so that our souls could live -- why would he do that if they were already immortal? The guarantee is that anyone who believes in him will never die -- that means the soul is immortalized.
That does not mean the body is resurrected at the same time.

People get confused so easily, it seems. Note that Paul was writing, not to us, but people in his own day here:

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Our bodies are corrupt, being made so by the Adamic curse on the earth from which they come. The "flesh and blood' of this world is definitely mortal then.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Did they all sleep at Corinth? Or did some sleep and will be changed later while others were changed without sleeping?

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Has that ever happened? Uh, yes. There was a "trumpet" sound at Sinai. Moses was changed -- the idolaters were not. Elijah experienced a "small still voice." He was changed. John was changed and saw the return of Jesus just as promised. He heard a trumpet sound and was caught into Heaven. Of course, his body wasn't caught up. He was caught up -- the way Ezekiel was caught up in the Spirit. Such people can move around without their physical bodies. They move "like the wind" -- as Jesus told Nicodemus those born from above can move.

It can happen to people today too. Here the phrase used is not "a trumpet" but "the Word of God. It separates soul and spirit among other things:

Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The person born thus from above is a son of God in a way he wasn't before. He is no longer confused about what a soul is or what a spirit is. The sad truth is that man's spirit often gets confused by associating with a physical body. The body rules him rather than him ruling the body. He becomes a slave to the "carnal nature."

Job is not confused if he is in agreement with the rest of scripture. He quite clearly and lucidly states that after his body is long dead and eaten by worms, there will be a time when he shall see God in the flesh, with his own eyes. He is confessing his faith in his Redeemer, in the midst of trial and suffering. Nothing out of context there at all.

Can you grapple with what I wrote instead of repeating yourself?

Of course he said he was convinced he would "see" God in the flesh with his own eyes after his body was dead. Of course he said that. And it was true too. It turned out however that he didn't have to wait that long. He could "see" God before the worms took his body. Ah, yes, few find that way. Many will sit down with Abraham in the kingdom, but few find the strait and narrow way.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

He said that in the Sermon on the Mount. The same day after coming down from the mountain, he said "many":

Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Both are true! To be sure, the average sinner will not be cast into outer darkness.

 

[quietthinker]

Giuliano,

Notice how quietthinker and his ilk conveniently duck the decisive refutation of his soul sleep position in post #35, a post that merely expresses the scholarly consensus on this issue of which your critics are oblivious.

Berserk and Giuliano, you turn your claim of believing God's word into a lie for God has plainly said '.....you will surely die' yet you say the dead live.
You choose to disbelieve God's words because they don't suit you're paradigm. Your preference is to believe the serpents words '....you will not surely die'

You further try to substantiate this lie by using God's word. You are doing the same as Satan tried with Jesus in those temptations in the wilderness.

Your own hand qualifies who you believe.

 

[Giuliano]

Berserk and Giuliano, you turn your claim of believing God's word into a lie for God has plainly said '.....you will surely die' yet you say the dead live.
You choose to disbelieve God's words because they don't suit you're paradigm. Your preference is to believe the serpents words '....you will not surely die'

You further try to substantiate this lie by using God's word. You are doing the same as Satan tried with Jesus in those temptations in the wilderness.

Your own hand qualifies who you believe.

But I said they did die -- the very day they ate of the forbidden fruit. Their bodies also died later. So you leave me baffled. Then you got nasty again, comparing me to Satan. The expression that the dead live doesn't even make sense to me.

But what about you? The Bible says, "Samuel" and you say, "But it doesn't mean Samuel." Talk about twisting words around.

 

[quietthinker]

wo

But I said they did die -- the very day they ate of the forbidden fruit. Their bodies also died later. So you leave me baffled. Then you got nasty again, comparing me to Satan. The expression that the dead live doesn't even make sense to me.

But what about you? The Bible says, "Samuel" and you say, "But it doesn't mean Samuel." Talk about twisting words around.

Work it out Giuliano, work it out!

 

[Brakelite]

Spirit is immortal

you say I'm not reading not grappling with what you are saying. I think it is the reverse. I said previously somewhere up above, that

• God is Spirit.
• God only is immortal
• Therefore God only is an immortal Spirit.

That means angels, humans, and any other spiritual being in the universe, is mortal. Immortality is a gift. It is not something we have naturally. Such a belief is pagan occult spiritualism bequeathed to the human race through the lies of Satan.

 

[Taken]

Berserk and Giuliano, you turn your claim of believing God's word into a lie for God has plainly said '.....you will surely die' yet you say the dead live.
You choose to disbelieve God's words because they don't suit you're paradigm. Your preference is to believe the serpents words '....you will not surely die'

It is Not about lying...but is about Understanding the words in context.

Death, is physical.
Death is Separation from God.

That day Adams Body did not die.
That day Adam was Separated From God.

It was Cunningness of the Devil, knowing Adam did not Understand or have a full understanding of Death. Many people do not.
People focus on mortal bodily death...

look at how many presently are consumed with Covid-death-death-death...24-7 brainwashing to be fearful... oh, oh, oh, a virus is such a phenomen, the world needs to stop moving, crawl in a hole and AND stay put until the World Economic Forum declares you can Crawl out, weak and begging them to save you!!! Ha!

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Giuliano]

you say I'm not reading not grappling with what you are saying. I think it is the reverse. I said previously somewhere up above, that

• God is Spirit.
• God only is immortal
• Therefore God only is an immortal Spirit.

That means angels, humans, and any other spiritual being in the universe, is mortal. Immortality is a gift. It is not something we have naturally. Such a belief is pagan occult spiritualism bequeathed to the human race through the lies of Satan.

You say only God is immortal. Then you say it can be a gift He gives. I may be able to agree with that if it was phrased somewhat differently.

 

[Taken]

you say I'm not reading not grappling with what you are saying. I think it is the reverse. I said previously somewhere up above, that

• God is Spirit.
• God only is immortal
• Therefore God only is an immortal Spirit.

That means angels, humans, and any other spiritual being in the universe, is mortal. Immortality is a gift. It is not something we have naturally. Such a belief is pagan occult spiritualism bequeathed to the human race through the lies of Satan.

Consider- mortal ONLY applies to Earthly human Body's whose natural life is Blood.

Earthly men experience Mortal Death.

God is Everlasting.
Created Spirits are Eternally Alive.
A Natural spirit of Earthly men, Given Gods Seed, becomes a Born Again spirit, that is Eternally Alive.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Brakelite]

Consider- mortal ONLY applies to Earthly human Body's whose natural life is Blood.

Earthly men experience Mortal Death.

God is Everlasting.
Created Spirits are Eternally Alive.
A Natural spirit of Earthly men, Given Gods Seed, becomes a Born Again spirit, that is Eternally Alive.

Glory to God,
Taken

Yet all conditional.

 

[charity]

You think the soul is dressed the way the body is? I would think Samuel's physical body would have been dust by that point along with grave clothes. Moreover they were not at Samuel's grave.

'And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.'
(Gen 2:7)

Hello Giuliano,

We appear to have differing understanding concerning what the soul is. I believe that it is the whole person energised by life. When the person dies, the soul is also dead, for the whole person is devoid of life. It is the 'breath of life' (or spirit) that goes back to God Who gave it. There is no life for the whole person until it is energised by life once again at the resurrection, then it will be once again 'a living soul'.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Giuliano]

'And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.'
(Gen 2:7)

Hello Giuliano,

We appear to have differing understanding concerning what the soul is. I believe that it is the whole person energised by life. When the person dies, the soul is also dead, for the whole person is devoid of life. It is the 'breath of life' (or spirit) that goes back to God Who gave it. There is no life for the whole person until it is energised by life once again at the resurrection, then it will be once again 'a living soul'.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

So what is the difference between animals and people? Why did God breath into the man but not into the animals?

 

[charity]

So what is the difference between animals and people? Why did God breath into the man but not into the animals?

Hello Giuliano,

Scripture tells us that the breath of life is what animates both man and beast. (e.g., Genesis 7:15)

God explains the process in the creation of man, we are not told that detail in relation to the rest of creation.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Brakelite]

You say only God is immortal. Then you say it can be a gift He gives. I may be able to agree with that if it was phrased somewhat differently.

Immortality is given at the second coming at which time is the Resurrection of the just. Until then people are dead/sleep in their graves. Sleep of death. The death of wrath for unrepentant sinners comes after their Resurrection ( Resurrection to damnation) and execution of sentence 1000 years later. They are not suffering in hell now, nor are the righteous in heaven now.

 

[Taken]

So what is the difference between animals and people? Why did God breath into the man but not into the animals?

God DID Breath His Breath of Life into animals.

The difference is: animals were not made in Gods Likeness or image, can not Sin Against God, thus their soul does not require saving.
Their blood life dies just like a humans, and they return to dust.

 

[amadeus]

these are the good old days
life has never been better, according to almost any measure
your ancestors from even 100 years ago--no time--would think you were lying if you described your station and lifestyle, most likely
and we make bargains with the grave

Those able to hear Jesus loved it, for the moment, but they looked away to see and hear the "good" and "evil" around them and back to the start they went or perhaps to a place seven times worse! As you might say here: "When we all get to heaven..."
Give God the glory now:

"Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content." Phil 4:11

.
what is it? is something you eat
just like the fruit of the tree of knowledge huh

People are always eating something, but is it the loaves and the fishes or is it manna? What is it?

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me." John 6:53-57

Matthew 24:15-16 follows Mark 13:14 closely: "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains"

Where is this holy place? To which mountains should one flee?

"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." I Peter 1:15-16

"They that trust in the LORD shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.
As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the LORD is round about his people from henceforth even for ever." Psalm 125:1-2