Can the Soul Die?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

keithr

Well-Known Member
Dec 4, 2020
1,541
409
83
Dorset
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
The Rich Man and Lazarus - continued.

The Death of Lazarus

In the context of this parable Jesus said the following: "The Law and the Prophets were until John. Since then the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it." (Luke 16:16) To those who view this parable as literal, this statement would seem to be dealing with a completely different subject. Yet Jesus gave the parable as an illustration of this very statement. Jesus made a similar statement as recorded in Matthew 11:12,13: "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven is pressing forward vigorously and those who are vigorous seize it eagerly. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

Jesus also stated: "Whoever puts away his wife, and marries another, commits adultery: and whoever marries her that is put away from her husband commits adultery." (Luke 16:18) Again, this seems to be unrelated to the parable. However, it has much to do with the parable as we will see.

The parable tells us: "The beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom." The death of the beggar illustrates the Jew who puts his
faith in Jesus as figuratively dying with Jesus. Thus Paul says: "Do you not know, brothers, (for I speak to them that know the law,) that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman which has a husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he lives. But if the husband should die, she is released from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband lives, she should marry to another man, she will be called an adulteress. But if her husband should die, she is free from that law; so she is no adulteress, though she should marry another man. Therefore, my brothers, you also have become dead to the law by the body of Christ, that you should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we have been delivered from the law, because being dead to that in which we were held, we should serve in a new manner by spirit, and not in the old manner by the letter." (Romans 7:1-6) Notice how well this parallels Luke 16:18.

When Lazarus died, he was taken by the angels to Abraham's bosom. This signifies the faith-believing Jew becoming part of the true seed of Abraham in Jesus by promise apart from the Law. "For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise." (Galatians 3:18) "When the full measure of time had come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the Law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons." (Galatians 4:4,5) They were being received into the favored position before God. -- Romans 4:13,14.

Likewise, the believing Gentile also, being a law unto himself, had to die to the Law of Sin that ruled in his body. (Romans 2:12-15; 3:9-20) Thus both the believing Jew as well as the believing Gentile are represented in Lazarus.

The Death of the Rich Man

John the Baptist warned the Pharisees and Sadducees: "Even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." (Matthew 3:10) The Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the scribes claimed to be the representatives of that law. (Matthew 12:2; 19:3; 22:34-36; John 7:47- 49) As a rich man riding upon the Law as a means to righteousness, they missed the righteousness of God. "Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. . . . For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God." -- Romans 9:31,32; 10:3

Did the Jewish nation, seeking righteousness after the law, continue in the favor of God? Or, on the other hand did that nation die to special blessings and mercies of God that they previously so richly enjoyed? Shortly before Jesus died, he wept over Jerusalem and said: "Your house is left to you in desolation." Thus the parable continues: "The rich man also died, and was buried." With the rejection of the national polity of Jerusalem, the city of the Jews, Rich Man died, for he no longer had any standing before Yahweh. This was signified by the vail being ripped apart in the temple at Jesus' death. -- Mark 15:38.

The Rich Man in Torments

Then we read that the Rich Man, in Hades, lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and he saw Abraham in the distance, and Lazarus in his bosom. So much were the Jewish leaders tormented by the change of conditions that they persecuted the followers of Jesus, even to putting them to death. The torment of the Jewish leaders is demonstrated at Acts 5:33, when the high priest, the captain of the temple, and the chief priests heard the things Peter and the other apostles told them: "They were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them." They demonstrated a similar torment at the words of Stephen: "When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth." (Acts 7:54) The fulfillment of this is also well-illustrated by Saul (before he became Paul the apostle), who was a Pharisee. Paul himself states: "For you have heard of my past conduct in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and destroyed it." (Galatians 1:13) "I actually thought to myself, that I should do many things to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth. These things I did also in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I put into prison, having received authority from the chief priests. When they were being put to death, I gave my voice against them. I punished them often in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme. Being exceedingly angry against them, I persecuted them even in foreign cities." (Acts 26:9-11) Their torment of feeling the rejection of God by the preaching of Jesus' followers led them to try to prove that they had not been rejected. A successful revolt against the Roman yoke would be such a proof.

The Rich Man asks Abraham to send Lazarus, that he might dip the tip of his finger in water and cool the Rich Man's tongue while he is tormented in the flames. (Luke 16:24) The Rich Man is not here really wanting to receive help from the Lazarus class. He speaks, not to Lazarus, but to Abraham, asking for water from Lazarus. The Jewish leaders began to realize that something was happening. They did not want to admit that they had missed the Messiah. They wanted Messiah to deliver them, but on their own terms. Seeing Lazarus at a distance, they desired a Messiah, someone to deliver them from the torments they had come into. Especially were they seeking deliverance from the Roman yoke. In May, 66 CE, the group known as Zealots, with whom were joined Pharisees and Sadducees, openly rebelled against Roman rule. Under the leadership of one Joseph Ben Matthias, a Pharisee (better known as Flavius Josephus), the Jews repulsed the Roman armies for 47 days before surrendering the fortress of Jotapata. By seeking deliverance from another source than through faith in Jesus they in effect were saying to Abraham: "Send Lazarus over to us, that he may cool our tongue." Returning to the parable, Abraham reminded the Rich Man how he had the good things during his lifetime, while Lazarus received bad things. The Rich Man had all the favors -- the Law and the Prophets. "To them were committed the oracles of God." (Romans 3:2) Now Lazarus was comforted with the knowledge of the Good News, while the Rich Man was in anguish. -- Luke 16:25; Acts 9:31; 2 Corinthians 1:3-6.

(To be continued.)
 

keithr

Well-Known Member
Dec 4, 2020
1,541
409
83
Dorset
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
The Rich Man and Lazarus - continued.

The Chasm

Then Abraham informs the Rich Man that there is a great chasm (canyon, gulf) between the Rich Man and himself. This chasm represents the difference between faith in Jesus and the seeking of righteousness through the Law. The Rich Man, representing those holding to the Law and denying Jesus as the Messiah, could not cross over the chasm to the other side in an endeavor to blend faith in the Messiah with seeking righteousness by Law. Likewise, Lazarus, representing those who are justified by faith in Jesus apart from the works of the Law, could not cross the chasm to the other side so as to blend the two opposing parties. Any individual Jew putting faith in Jesus (apart from the Law) would be represented in the Lazarus class. Any individual Jew who continued in seeking righteousness according to the Law would be represented by the Rich Man class. The Jew could be represented by one or the other. One could not accept righteousness through faith in the Messiah and at the same time seek righteousness by Law. Such would be crossing the chasm, that is, trying to bring salvation by works of the Law over to the side of Lazarus, or trying to take salvation by faith in the Messiah over to the side of the Rich Man, neither of which could be done. -- Galatians 2:16,21.

The Rich Man's Brothers

Next, the Rich Man, again addressing Abraham, asks for Lazarus to go to his father's house to warn his five brothers, that they not come into the place of torment he was in. (Luke 16:28) In the years 67-68 CE many Jews were taken prisoners by Vespasian. A knowledge that God was punishing the chosen people was growing amongst many of the Jewish people who had been taken prisoners. Josephus was among these. Another Pharisee, Jochanan ben Zakkai, likewise began to recognize that it was not God's will for the Jews to be freed from the Romans. These prisoners and others, in effect, were asking Abraham for a Messiah, not to deliver the remaining revolting Jews from the Roman yoke, but to warn them of the tragedy that was to come if they continued in their revolt. In doing this, however, they still did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah nor his followers as the true Lazarus. They wanted a justification, a Lazarus who would come to help their "brothers" under the Law. Abraham replied that they had Moses and the Prophets; they could listen to them. These, we are told, would lead them to the Messiah. (Galatians 3:24) To send the true Lazarus to the "brothers" of the Rich Man, would have necessitated the revoking of their death to sin and the law. (Romans 6:2,7,8,11; 7:4) To do so would have meant they would become "twice dead" condemned to death twice by the law of sin. Thus Abraham told the Rich Man that if his brothers would not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither would they listen to one who rose from the dead -- those dead with Messiah. The remaining Jews in Jerusalem, Masada, etc., did not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they continued their rebellion until the city of Jerusalem with its temple was totally destroyed in the year 70 CE. In the year 73 the siege of Masada ended in disastrous results to the "brothers" of the Rich Man. Jesus does not take the narrative any further.

The number of "brothers" used in the parable is a total of six; the one who dies and the five who remain alive. We believe this number -- six -- the number of imperfection, is used to represent the unrighteous condition of the six brothers, that is, they had not been justified in the blood of the lamb. **

Some try to show that Abraham's bosom in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus represents heaven or paradise. They argue: "The fact that at death Abraham's soul went to heaven is plainly stated in Scripture (Hebrews 11:10,16; cf. Matthew 8:11)" Yet, neither Hebrews 11:10,16 nor Matthew 8:11 say anything about Abraham's continuance of life in heaven while in death. Those who refer to the scriptures in this manner desire to read into scripture something which is not there. Matthew 8:10-12 and Luke 13:28-30 depict the end results of the Jewish rejection of their Messiah in the resurrection. The Kingdom was taken from them and given to a nation producing its fruitage. (Matthew 21:43) Abraham, Isaac and Jacob sit in this kingdom because it is this nation that becomes the seed of Abraham. Of course, the language of the parable is pictorial, not to be taken literally. The children of the kingdom, the Jews as a whole, were cast out into outer darkness. There they were weeping and gnashing their teeth. They were cast out when Jesus stated: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem you who killed the prophets, and stoned them that were sent to you how often I would have gathered your children together, as hen gathers her offspring under her wings, but you would not allow it! Look, your house is left to you in desolation. Truly I say to that you will not see until the time comes when you will say: Blessed is he who comes in the name of Yahweh!'" (Luke 13:34,35) In all this there is no reference to a living existence of Abraham going to heaven when he died.

Likewise Hebrews 11:10,16 refers to the city that will come down from heaven in the next age. (Revelation 21:1-4) Thus it will be in the time when Abraham will be resurrected, and the time when God himself is spoken of as dwelling with men. Hebrews 11:35 indicates that the resurrection, not an undieable soul, is referred to. Abraham did not receive the promise, we are told, nor was he made perfect before the believers in the Messiah. (Hebrews 11:39,40) Nothing is stated in the scriptures cited nor in the context to the effect that Abraham's soul went to heaven when he died.


** A different interpretation of the five brothers:

The key that identifies the rich man of the parable is in the statement concerning his five brothers - "They have Moses and the prophets." This was true only of the Jewish nation. The nation was divided into twelve tribes. Following the Babylonian captivity, it was mostly the members of the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin that returned to Judea, although some of all the tribes returned. It was largely, therefore, the two tribes to whom Jesus ministered, and who would be represented by this rich man of the parable. If this one man represented two tribes, the other ten tribes could be well represented by his five brethren, and the parable shows that they shared the same fate because they had failed to hear Moses and the prophets.
 
Last edited:

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,695
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why did Jesus give the poor man the name Lazarus? Because the name means "whom God helps".

Here's an article (fairly long) about this parable that I downloaded about 21 years ago:

The Rich Man and Lazarus
Luke 16:19-31

It is evident from the whole setting of this passage that it is a parable. Otherwise the logical lesson to be drawn from it is that unless we are poor
beggars, full of sores, we will never enter eternal bliss; and that future torment will be our portion if we happen to wear fine linen and purple and fare sumptuously every day. And, if taken literally, those who are poor are taken, not to heaven, but to Abraham's bosom. However, the context of this passage shows that Christ in this parable was teaching a great dispensational truth, namely, the change of favor from the Mosaic Law Covenant to the Covenant of faith. (Luke 16:16-18; Galatians 3:6-29) If you read carefully the 32nd chapter of Deuteronomy, you will see that Jesus was merely repeating in vivid pictorial language what Moses had already said. See particularly verses 20 to 29; and also Paul's quotation of the 21st verse in Romans 10:19, where he shows that Moses' prophecy referred to the overthrow of Israel consequent upon Jesus' rejection of that nation.

Jesus was evidently drawing upon something that was in the real world, the apostate Jewish belief which blended the Grecian philosophies into the Bible. The Jewish leaders knew of these beliefs and it was the Jewish leaders that he was addressing. He used their own beliefs, not to condone their apostate beliefs, but to illustrate the change he had just spoken of: "The law and the prophets were until John." -- Luke 16:16.

Some other reasons that this story should be viewed as a parable:

To think that Jesus was supporting the idea of eternal roasting after death by use of this parable is contrary to God's justice, for justice demanded the forfeiture of man's life for sin (Genesis 2:17), for "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23), and of God it is said (Psalm 145:20): "all the wicked will he destroy." Therefore, it would be an infraction of God's justice for him to preserve the wicked and eternally torture them.

Additionally, such a conclusion violates God's wisdom, for wisdom devises plans which useful ends are attained. There is surely no useful purpose in keeping the rich man eternally in a place of torture.

Of course, the parable says nothing about Lazarus remaining in hades for eternity, but as Revelation 20:13 shows, all in hades will be brought back for the judgment day, and then hades will be destroyed in the lake of fire. -- Revelation 20:14; See also Hosea 13:14.

If the Rich Man were in literal flames in hades, this could contradict the entire testimony of the rest of the Bible, which shows that sheol/hades is
nothingness, oblivion, silence, destruction. -- Ecclesiastes 9:10; Psalm 6:5; 115:17; 146:3,4; Isaiah 38:18; 63:16; Job 14:21; etc. This has been showned throughout this publication.

It would contradict God's stated purpose to bless mankind. -- Genesis 12:1-3.

It would contradict the ransom, which is clearly taught, for example, in 1 Corinthians 15:3,21,22, Hebrews 2:9; 1 Timothy 2:6, which scriptures teach that Christ died (not suffered eternal torment) for our sins according to the Hebrew scriptures. The prophecy of Isaiah 53:4-12 shows that our Lord would bear our penalty (which is death -- Genesis 2:17; Romans 6:23 -- not eternal torment), pouring out his soul to death. The effect of this ransom is to be the salvation of all men, not the eternal torture of the vast majority. (1 Timothy 4:10; 1 John 2:2).

The rich man of the parable represented the proud and self-righteous of the Jewish nation in our Savior's time, seeking righteousness by means of the Law Covenant. (Galatians 2:21; Philippians 3:9; Romans 9:31,32) The Pharisees seem to be particularly represented by the Rich Man. (Luke 16:14,15) The scribes and Pharisees sat in Moses seat' (Matthew 23:2) as the religious leaders and representatives in Israel. (Matthew 23:5-7) The Rich Man's clothing of purple and fine linen represented the honors and privileges accorded to the scribes and Pharisees. (Matthew 23:5-7) The fine linen represented the self-righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, which they claimed by the Law. (John 9:40,41) The purple clothing represented royalty -- not only was purple the royal color in our Savior's day, but we still speak of royal purple. (Judges 8:26; John 19:2,3; Mark 15:17,18) The scribes and Pharisees were sitting in Moses' seat, therefore they had the purple in the sense that to it belonged the honor of being the typical Kingdom of God, and the promises respecting the future dominion of God as the Kingdom of God. The abundance of food upon the Rich Man's table represented the abundance of divine promises and blessings and instructions given to the scribes and Pharisees. (Romans 9:4,5) It was this table of divine favors that the apostle referred to saying: "What advantage does the Jew have? Much in every way, chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God." (Romans 3:1-3) This was the table respecting which the prophet and the apostle spoke concerning Israel: "Let their table become a trap and a snare to them." (Romans 11:9) In other words, the very bounties and blessings of God's revelations or oracles tended to make them not humble, but proud, and ultimately assisted in their stumbling and rejection of the Savior due to their insistence of their righteousness by works of the Law. -- Romans 9:30-32.

The scribes and Pharisees would not so much as eat with any they considered as sinners. (Matthew 9:11) They viewed Jewish sinners the same as if they were Gentiles, without law. Those who accepted the Messiah's teachings were of this lowly Jewish class. Matthew, one of his apostles, was a tax collector, others were common fishermen. (Matthew 10:3; Mark 1:16,19) None of them were recognized by the religious aristocracy of the time. They were looked down upon, declared not to be heirs with the holy Pharisees and educated Scribes and Doctors of the Law. The Pharisees even determined that Jesus himself was not only a friend of publicans and sinners but an injurious person who must not be allowed to live. (Matthew 12:14) From the Jewish leaders' standpoint Jesus and his followers were all outside the gates, excluded from the special privileges and blessings of God through the "righteousness" Law. These lowly Jewish followers of Jesus were the first of the Lazarus class.


(To be continued.)


Man crafts a fancy story, but has nothing to do with reality8.

simple fact is all names in Jewish times had specific meanings. Even our names have meanings. With the exception of the Sadducees, religious Jews knew of Abrahams Bosom/Paradise and the place of torments.

Twice inteh epistles it is spoken of and Jesus Himself said to the penitent thief that on that day (Good Friday) the thief would be with Jesus in Paradise which is th eother name for Abrahams bosom. Until Jesus shed His blood, no one when they died entered heaven. Now when we die we go tobe with the Lords in heaven. It is a shame this man you trust to make doctrine does not know this basic understanding of OT salkvation and where the righteous went and where the lost went.

If you wish to believe it is a parable- that is your business. It is not for it does not have th languagge of a parable, it would be th eonly parable Jesus mentioned naems, and it makes no comparisons between earthly and heavenly things.

And by what authority does this guys personal interpretation of this account rely on to say His reinterpretation of it is the truth God intended and ot simply what is written which was commonly known amongst the jews? Why is this mans reinterpretation correct and many others who have reinterpreted it differently than him are wrong and the words as written are wrong?
 

keithr

Well-Known Member
Dec 4, 2020
1,541
409
83
Dorset
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
simple fact is all names in Jewish times had specific meanings.
Which is why Jesus gave the poor man the name (but he didn't name the rich man), because the meaning of the name gave information relevant to the story. He was indicating that Lazarus represented those of true faith who God was going to help.

Twice in the epistles it is spoken of
Abraham's bosom is only ever mentioned in this parable in Luke 16.

and Jesus Himself said to the penitent thief that on that day (Good Friday) the thief would be with Jesus in Paradise which is the other name for Abrahams bosom.
Jesus was in the grave for three days, so he wasn't in paradise with anyone during that time. Therefore it should be read with the comma (which was added centuries later) after the word today, not before it, so it becomes, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in paradise". Or perhaps he meant that as far as the thief was concerned when he awoke at his resurrection it would seem to him to be the same day, even though it will be around 2,000 years later. Paradise (a park) will be on the earth, not in heaven.

Until Jesus shed His blood, no one when they died entered heaven. Now when we die we go tobe with the Lords in heaven.
Not according to Paul. Dead Christians are not resurrected until moments before the rapture, when Jesus returns for his bride:

1 Thessalonians 4:
16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

1 Corinthians 15:
22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​

If you wish to believe it is a parable- that is your business. It is not for it does not have th languagge of a parable, it would be th eonly parable Jesus mentioned naems, and it makes no comparisons between earthly and heavenly things.
If you wish to believe that then that is your prerogative.

And by what authority does this guys personal interpretation of this account rely on to say His reinterpretation of it is the truth God intended and ot simply what is written which was commonly known amongst the jews? Why is this mans reinterpretation correct and many others who have reinterpreted it differently than him are wrong and the words as written are wrong?
I'm just sharing the information. If you don't believe it or agree with it that is your choice. Personally, I try to harmonise all Scripture so that I can be more confident that my understanding of it is correct. Taking this parable as a factual story does not harmonise with other Scripture verses which are contradictory.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,695
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Abraham's bosom is only ever mentioned in this parable in Luke 16.

automobiles are never mentioned in the bible. does that mena they are notr real and don't exist?? C'mon man be real. It was common belief and reffered to twice in the epitles.


Which is why Jesus gave the poor man the name (but he didn't name the rich man), because the meaning of the name gave information relevant to the story. He was indicating that Lazarus represented those of true faith who God was going to help.


Now just prove that you rinterpretation is what Jesus intended instead of what is simply written. And how did you crack the code?


Jesus was in the grave for three days, so he wasn't in paradise with anyone during that time. Therefore it should be read with the comma (which was added centuries later) after the word today, not before it, so it becomes, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in paradise". Or perhaps he meant that as far as the thief was concerned when he awoke at his resurrection it would seem to him to be the same day, even though it will be around 2,000 years later. Paradise (a park) will be on the earth, not in heaven.

HIs body was in the ground. but His spirit and soul went to Paradise as He told the penitent thief! Until His ascension, all righteous dead , their bodies went into the ground but their souls went to paradise to await Jesus actually shedding His blood. As it saysd ini ephesians when He ascenbded on high He led the captives.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,695
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Not according to Paul. Dead Christians are not resurrected until moments before the rapture, when Jesus returns for his bride:

orrect that is the rapture!

But did you not read what also was written?

2 Corinthians 5:6-8
King James Version

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


When we die we are absent ffom the body and present with the Lord.


I'm just sharing the information. If you don't believe it or agree with it that is your choice. Personally, I try to harmonise all Scripture so that I can be more confident that my understanding of it is correct. Taking this parable as a factual story does not harmonise with other Scripture verses which are contradictory.

Which verses?

How come your person picked to explain what the parable meant did not address what was meant by paradise and the place of torments and about dipping his finger and the warning about believing Scripture? Seems everyone who wishes to reinterpret this simple passage always leave explanations for these out or just whish right by trhem.
 

GEN2REV

Well-Known Member
May 12, 2021
3,850
1,436
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is nothing in the text of Revelation chapter 6 to suggest that the verse is taking place "in the spirit" or "in a spiritual realm."
The entire book of Revelation takes place in the spirit.

The book is John's prophetic vision given to him by Christ. All that is conveyed after chapter 1 verse 10 takes place in the spirit.

"I was in the spirit on the Lord's Day, ..."
Revelation 1:10
Jesus speaking: " ... What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto ... (all the churches)"
Revelation 1:11

Jesus clarifies now for all those who would claim that these things were symbolic and not to be taken literally.
Jesus speaking:
"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; ..."
Revelation 1:19

The spirit realm is always more real than the physical. The spirit realm is eternal, the physical is temporary.

"While we look not at the things which are seen (physical/transitory), but at the things which are not seen (things grasped by faith/eternal/spiritual): for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are unseen are eternal."
2 Corinthians 4:18
 

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
5,552
2,069
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The entire book of Revelation takes place in the spirit.

The book is John's prophetic vision given to him by Christ. All that is conveyed after chapter 1 verse 10 takes place in the spirit.

"I was in the spirit on the Lord's Day, ..."
Revelation 1:10
Jesus speaking: " ... What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto ... (all the churches)"
Revelation 1:11

Jesus clarifies now for all those who would claim that these things were symbolic and not to be taken literally.
Jesus speaking:
"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; ..."
Revelation 1:19

The spirit realm is always more real than the physical. The spirit realm is eternal, the physical is temporary.

"While we look not at the things which are seen (physical/transitory), but at the things which are not seen (things grasped by faith/eternal/spiritual): for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are unseen are eternal."
2 Corinthians 4:18
The fact that John was "in the spirit", whatever that means, doesn't indicate to me that what he saw were depictions of actual events. What John saw were picture metaphors, symbolic images, which draw upon a set of Biblical stories many of his readers share in common. John says that he saw souls underneath the alter. This picture takes its meaning from animal sacrifice, practiced throughout the known world at the time. During the actual event of an animal sacrifice the blood of the victim is poured out underneath the alter. Exodus 29:12

John's vision pictures souls underneath the alter, rather than blood, which represent human lives, perhaps martyrs, who made the ultimate sacrifice for belief in Jesus Christ. Perhaps these souls died for the cause of Christ. Perhaps these souls are the same souls who are brought back to life in Revelation 20.

Souls are not eternal, they die. Ezekiel 18:4 Souls need to be delivered (or saved) from death. Psalms 33:19, Psalms 56:13, Psalms 116:8, James 5:20 Souls can be destroyed in Gehenna. Matthew 10:8

When a person dies, the body is destroyed and the spirit returns to the Father who gave it. Psalms 146:4 When Jesus died, he committed his spirit to the Father. Luke 23:46 When Jesus was on the cross, he prayed, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." And having said this, he breathed his last. Luke 23:46 He was quoting Psalms 32:5.

But while Jesus committed his spirit to the Father, he didn't go to be with the Father at that time. John 20:17 He went to be with the father after his resurrection when he physically ascended into heaven. Acts 1:9

Essentially, the term "soul" refers to the life of the individual, not merely his inwardness, though that is a large part of the meaning, but also his life experience, his occupation, his life's work. Genesis says that when God breathed into man, he became a living being, with the emphasis on "living", the focus is on his livelihood, his way of life, his work, his activity and all things such as this that help define who he is as an individual. To save a man's soul is to save the whole complete man, not merely a third of him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GEN2REV

keithr

Well-Known Member
Dec 4, 2020
1,541
409
83
Dorset
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
automobiles are never mentioned in the bible. does that mena they are notr real and don't exist?? C'mon man be real. It was common belief and reffered to twice in the epitles.
What I wrote was correct. The only place in the Bible that "Abraham's bosom" is mentioned is in this parable, in verses 22 and 23.

And how did you crack the code?
By reading good Bible study literature.

HIs body was in the ground. but His spirit and soul went to Paradise as He told the penitent thief! Until His ascension, all righteous dead , their bodies went into the ground but their souls went to paradise to await Jesus actually shedding His blood. As it saysd ini ephesians when He ascenbded on high He led the captives.
Why would the dead go to a paradise or a place of torment, considering that death means you will be in an unconscious state (likened to sleep)? We will only regain conscousness when we are resurrected:

(Ecc 9:5) "the dead don’t know anything"
(Ecc 9:10) "there is no work, nor plan, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, where you are going."

(Joh 11:11) [Jesus] said to them, “Our friend, Lazarus, has fallen asleep, but I am going so that I may awake him out of sleep.”
(1Th 4:14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
 

keithr

Well-Known Member
Dec 4, 2020
1,541
409
83
Dorset
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
But did you not read what also was written?

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 King James Version

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

When we die we are absent ffom the body and present with the Lord.
In this passage Paul is saying that as Christians we know that after we die, and our earthly bodies disintegrate away (perish), that God will give us an eternal heavenly (spritual) body (verse 1). While we groan and are burdened in our corrupt earthly bodies, we desire to be clothed with our new spirit bodies, when we are resurrected (verse 2). He says that we are confident that we will be given new spirit bodies because God has given us the down payment of His Spirit in us (verse 5). Therefore, whilst we know that while we are in our human bodies that we are not with Jesus and God (verse 6), we are nevertheless confident of our future and looking forward to being with our Lord Jesus in our new home in heaven (verse 8).

4) For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.​

Paul is not contradicting himself and saying that as soon as we die we are resurrected and given a spirit body, nor is he saying that when we die and are unclothed (in the state of death) that we are conscious and alive in hades (hell).

Which verses?
Verse like those I quoted in post #369. And others like:

Psalms 146:4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.


How come your person picked to explain what the parable meant did not address what was meant by paradise and the place of torments and about dipping his finger and the warning about believing Scripture? Seems everyone who wishes to reinterpret this simple passage always leave explanations for these out or just whish right by trhem.
I think the writer did address those points. But I'm afraid I can't contact the writer to ask him questions because it came from a newsgroup and the website that it referenced no longer exists.
 
Last edited:

GEN2REV

Well-Known Member
May 12, 2021
3,850
1,436
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@CadyandZoe
I don't entirely agree, but ... nice post.

The fact that John was "in the spirit", whatever that means, doesn't indicate to me that what he saw were depictions of actual events. What John saw were picture metaphors, symbolic images, which draw upon a set of Biblical stories many of his readers share in common.
I believe Revelation 1:19 makes clear that these things were not to be taken symbolically. Revelation 4:1-2 repeats this assertion.

" ... I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard ... saying,"Come up here and I will show you things which must take place ... Immediately I was in the spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne."

Souls are not eternal, they die. Ezekiel 18:4 Souls need to be delivered (or saved) from death.
It is my understanding, per scripture, that souls do not die until/unless they are destroyed by God.

" ... do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Matthew 10:29

This verse makes very clear that there is only ONE individual who has the power to destroy the soul. All others are only capable of destroying the physical body. Therefore, the soul does not die, it does not expire, upon physical death along with the body. There is no other way to translate that verse.

One of the biggest hang-ups to this entire debate is that many cultures throughout history have considered the spirit and soul to be the same. If that is the case, which I believe based on scripture as a whole, then this debate is concluded and my position, that the soul does not die until it is destroyed by God, is a position that we can agree upon. Unfortunately, 1 Thessalonians 5:23 says there is body, soul and spirit. Therefore this debate will rage on. But if anybody takes the time to consider that the spirit and soul are the same thing, when looking through all the biblical information on the subject - including the spirit/soul/life being in our blood (Leviticus 17:11), it all makes much more sense.

It is said that the soul is more our personality while the spirit is always facing, and committed to, God, but that doesn't follow scripture references to the spirit like those verses that refer to people seeing, or communicating with spirits, that are clearly not of God. In Matthew 14:26, the disciples see Jesus walking on the water of the sea and they are terrified, claiming they thought He was a spirit (ghost). This verse strongly indicates that their impression was of something evil, something demonic. Jesus even confirms their fear to be justified when He calms them, reassuring them that it is just Him and not some evil thing (Matthew 14:27). This event doesn't really add up if they simply thought they were seeing the spirit of a deceased human; especially if the spirit of a human is always facing, and committed to, God - as some claim.

Those who serve and worship the enemy believe that ingesting blood, and flesh with the blood in it, allows them to assimilate the spirit/soul of the creature, or person, supplementing their own with that creature's spirit/soul characteristics - good and bad. We are strongly commanded not to ever do this. (Genesis 9:4; Deuteronomy 12:23)


When a person dies, the body is destroyed and the spirit returns to the Father who gave it.
If you commit your spirit/soul to the devil, it does not return to God upon your physical death. It belongs to the enemy unless major repentance, and possibly severe spiritual warfare and divine intervention, take place. The devil prowls like a lion seeking whom he may devour. (1 Peter 5:8). Like God, he is a spiritual (incorporeal/disembodied) entity. He cannot ingest our physical body or blood, but he can take our spirit/soul under certain circumstances. Is it possible, if our body is eaten - or our blood is ingested, that our spirit/soul does not return to God and is damned to remain with the demon responsible throughout their time in the lake of fire?

I digress.

Essentially, the term "soul" refers to the life of the individual, not merely his inwardness, though that is a large part of the meaning, but also his life experience, his occupation, his life's work. Genesis says that when God breathed into man, he became a living being, with the emphasis on "living", the focus is on his livelihood, his way of life, his work, his activity and all things such as this that help define who he is as an individual. To save a man's soul is to save the whole complete man, not merely a third of him.
Actually, that verse says man became a living soul which contradicts everything you state there following.
" ... and man became a living soul. "
Genesis 2:7
 
Last edited:

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,695
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
By reading good Bible study literature.

So you read someone elses opinion and they cracked the code. How did they crack the code? and how do you know their opinion of many is actually the one God inteneded if as you believe God did not intned us to take this literally!


What I wrote was correct. The only place in the Bible that "Abraham's bosom" is mentioned is in this parable, in verses 22 and 23.

Is that your standard for dec iding if something is literal or allegorical? How many times it appears? wow that is sad. But Paradise is mentioned several times and the Jews Abrahams Bosom is the same as Paradise!


Why would the dead go to a paradise or a place of torment, considering that death means you will be in an unconscious state (likened to sleep)? We will only regain conscousness when we are resurrected:

(Ecc 9:5) "the dead don’t know anything"
(Ecc 9:10) "there is no work, nor plan, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, where you are going."


So I take it you don't believe that man is a tri-chotomous being comprised of Body (soma), soul (psuche) and spirit (pneama).

Now go an d learn that teh earlky Hebrews did not have a concept of life after dseath. People were not supposed to die. Gods promise was for a paradise on earth for the righte9ous dead.

But the New TEstament shows us man has an immortal soul. Even in Jesus day the people knew that sheol/hades/ the grave/ hell was compriosed of three portions.

1. Abraham's Bosom- where the righteous dead went
2. Place of torments- where the lost went.
3. Tartarus- Where the angles who left heaven and had sex with women in Gen. 6 are chained.

As it is written in Ephesians when Jesus ascended- He led the captives and emptied Abraham's bosom. Why? Because He had shed His blood and poured it out on the mercy seat so access to heaven was now gained.

That is why Pual wrote in 2 Cor. that when we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord!

Also Paul sounds awful silly when He wrote and prayed god would bless ujs body, soul and spirit!
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,695
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In this passage Paul is saying that as Christians we know that after we die, and our earthly bodies disintegrate away (perish), that God will give us an eternal heavenly (spritual) body (verse 1). While we groan and our burdened in our corrupt earthly bodies, we desire to be clothed with our new spirit bodies, when we are resurrected (verse 2). He says that we are confident that we will be given new spirit bodies because God has given us the down payment of His Spirit in us (verse 5). Therefore, whilst we know that while we are in our human bodies that we are not with Jesus and God (verse 6), we are nevertheless confident of our future and looking forward to being with our Lord Jesus in our new home in heaven (verse 8).


No that is you putting words in Pual mouth! Oual is simply saying that when we are gone from the body (present tense) we are at home with the Lord (present tense) it is not some mystical code for a future event! YOu are deliberately8 and intentionally correcting the grammar that the Inpsired Apostle wrote the Scriptures in! why should I believ eyo uover Paul?


Paul is not contradicting himself and saying that as soon as we die we are resurrected and given a spirit body, nor is he saying that when we die and are unclothed (in the state of death) that we are conscious and alive in hades (hell).

And I never implied that eiother! Just the opposite to be exact! We are not resurrected at the moment of our physical death. The believers soul and spirit go up and the body goes down. The resurrection only concerns the physical body. OUr soul and spirit will already be in heaven and at teh resurrection we will be reunited with out body.
 

GEN2REV

Well-Known Member
May 12, 2021
3,850
1,436
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The resurrection only concerns the physical body. Our soul and spirit will already be in heaven and at the resurrection we will be reunited with our body.
Does your understanding coincide with these verses, Ron?

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle (physical body) were dissolved, we have a building of (body from) God, an house not made with hands (not made by man/not physical flesh), eternal in the heavens (not decaying, buried in the earth - not our physical body we died in). ... our house which is from heaven (not our previous body resurrected): "
2 Corinthians 5:1-2

" ... that which thou sowest (plant/bury), thou sowest not that body that shall be (raised), ..."
1 Corinthians 15:37

"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption (corruptible, physical body/flesh); it is raised in incorruption (incorruptible, spiritual body/flesh): It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body."
1 Corinthians 15:42-44
 
  • Like
Reactions: keithr

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,695
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Does your understanding coincide with these verses, Ron?

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle (physical body) were dissolved, we have a building of (body from) God, an house not made with hands (not made by man/not physical flesh), eternal in the heavens (not decaying, buried in the earth - not our physical body we died in). ... our house which is from heaven (not our previous body resurrected): "
2 Corinthians 5:1-2

" ... that which thou sowest (plant/bury), thou sowest not that body that shall be (raised), ..."
1 Corinthians 15:37

"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption (corruptible, physical body/flesh); it is raised in incorruption (incorruptible, spiritual body/flesh): It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body."
1 Corinthians 15:42-44

Yes those all speak of the natural body transformed in to teh spiritual glorified body we will inahbit for eternity. How that body functions and what it is like we do not know. But based on Jesus we can conclude the following!

1. It is visible.
2. It is recognizable
3. It carries some of our mortal things.
4. It will eat and drink
5. and unlike our present bodies, they will not die.

This is what we will get back into at theresurrection. In the meantime the spirits of the saved are in heaven with the Lord- for to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord!
 

keithr

Well-Known Member
Dec 4, 2020
1,541
409
83
Dorset
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
So you read someone elses opinion and they cracked the code. How did they crack the code? and how do you know their opinion of many is actually the one God inteneded if as you believe God did not intned us to take this literally!
I have read other people's explanations of their understanding of this parable, and reading and studying the Scriptures too convinced me that their explanations were reasonable. Claims that it is a true story or a description of reality seems unreasonable to me because it it contrary to many other verses of Scripture.

Is that your standard for dec iding if something is literal or allegorical? How many times it appears? wow that is sad. But Paradise is mentioned several times and the Jews Abrahams Bosom is the same as Paradise!
No. You had claimed that Abraham's bosom was twice mentioned in epistles. I was correcting that because it is only mentioned in this parable, and never in any of the epistles. I was not using the number of times it was mentioned to determine if it was literal or allegorical. Paradise is not mentioned in this parable and there is no reason to think that Abraham's bosom is referring to a garden or paradise. The word paradise is used three times in the Bible, but I don't see any connection of that to Abraham's bosom. I believe that Jesus' use of "Abraham's bosom" is signifying that Christians have become children of Abraham:

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. (Galations 3:7)​

just as Jesus, God's son, is described as being in the bosom of his Father:

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18)​

As it is written in Ephesians when Jesus ascended- He led the captives and emptied Abraham's bosom.
It does not say that in Ephesians. You're reading into the Scriptures words that are not there.

That is why Pual wrote in 2 Cor. that when we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord!
Paul didn't say that either! Read it more carefully. The early Christians died over 1900 years ago, and their bodies have disintegrated long ago, but they are still yet to be resurrected and given their spirit being bodies:

(1 Corinthians 15:52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
 
Last edited:

keithr

Well-Known Member
Dec 4, 2020
1,541
409
83
Dorset
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
In the meantime the spirits of the saved are in heaven with the Lord- for to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord!
2 Corinthians 5:6 says, "while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord". That does not mean that being absent from the body implies that we must be present with God. In between we "sleep in death".
 

GRACE ambassador

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2021
2,370
1,532
113
71
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
2 Corinthians 5:6 says, "while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord". That does not mean that being absent from the body implies that we must be present with God. In between we "sleep in death".
Precious friend, I do not see an implication of why not - Departure Truth:

"Now He that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given
unto us The Earnest of The Spirit. Therefore we are always Confident, knowing
that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from The LORD: ( For
we walk by faith, not by sight: ) We are Confident, I say, and willing rather to be
absent from the body, and to be present With The LORD!" (2 Corinthians 5:5-8)

Exact
opposites! Amen? Not much Confidence in "sleeping/UNconscious in death,"
and, Paul further teaches:

"For to me to live is Christ, and to die IS GAIN!" (Philippians 1:21) How's that?

"For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be
With Christ; which IS FAR BETTER!" (Philippians 1:23) Hallelujah?

"Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together
With HIM
." (1 Thessalonians 5:10) In a Conscious state, Correct?:

Q: How then do the UNconscious souls, of them that were slain
{absent from their bodies}, cry out To The LORD, if they are not
present With Him, In Heaven (Revelation 6:9-10)?

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!

(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship, today?)
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,695
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I have read other people's explanations of their understanding of this parable, and reading and studying the Scriptures too convinced me that their explanations were reasonable. Claims that it is a true story or a description of reality seems unreasonable to me because it it contrary to many other verses of Scripture.

Please cite them please. do not go deep into the OT unless you first declare you believe in soul sleep or annihilation/restoration. The New Testament explicitly shows this passage true.

Abrhams bosom and paradise were the same place.

Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
This is Jesus emptying Abrahams bosom and leading those righteous souols to heaven, now that His blood had been shed and poured out on the heavenly mercy seat!


2 Corinthians 5:6 says, "while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord". That does not mean that being absent from the body implies that we must be present with God. In between we "sleep in death".

WOW!!! You are right! It does not imply it, it explicitly says it! The body sleeps in death, but the spirit of the saved goes to be with the Lord. There is no other way to read this if you have any sense of Grammar and linguistic understanding.


No. You had claimed that Abraham's bosom was twice mentioned in epistles. I was correcting that because it is only mentioned in this parable, and never in any of the epistles. I was not using the number of times it was mentioned to determine if it was literal or allegorical. Paradise is not mentioned in this parable and there is no reason to think that Abraham's bosom is referring to a garden or paradise. The word paradise is used three times in the Bible, but I don't see any connection of that to Abraham's bosom. I believe that Jesus' use of "Abraham's bosom" is signifying that Christians have become children of Abraham:

YOu are free of course to believe anything you want. But given your opinion of this story- please do not call it the Word of God. You would be lying. I will give you credit. You are the most fanciful yarn spinner of this account I have readin my 47 years of being a follower of Jesus. Why should I believe you8r opinion instead of the Word as it is written and was understood.
 

BarneyFife

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2019
8,978
6,219
113
Central PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Oh, wait - JWs and SDA think hell is the grave and the soul sleeps with the body in the dirt.
Sometimes the word "hell" does mean "the grave" in the Bible. Seventh-day Adventists do believe in a literal, burning hell reserved for the persistently wicked. :)