CAN WE FALL AWAY ?

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BreadOfLife

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Exactly. They were not and indeed COULD NOT be willing. They do the will of "Their father, the Devil" [Jhn 8:44]. Our wills are enslaved to sin. We cannot make any choice that is not in some way tainted by our natures, as all of our thoughts are "only evil continually" [Gen. 6:5]

So no, this is not an invention of Calvinism. It is an invention of Scriptures.
WRONG.
We HAVE a choice to choose God or to choose evil.

The problem that YOU and Calvin have is that you actually believe that God only gives the grace to believe to SOME - and tosses the rest into Hell.

That would render MANY Scripture verses a LIE . . .
1 Tim. 2:4
states emphatically that God WILLS the salvation of ALL people and that ALL come to a knowledge of the truth.

John 3:16 tells us in NO uncertain terms that God so loved the WORLD - that He gave His only begotten son; that WHOSOEVER believes in Him should NOT perish but have everlasting life.

Either Calvin is right - and God is a LIAR - or Calvin is wrong and God is ALL truthful.
 

Stranger

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Let me get this straight: From Post #60 and before - YOU claimed that these people DIDN'T have Epignosis.
NOW you are saying that they DID??

MY point has been that if YOUR Protestant KJV is correct - and the Rom. 1:28 says, "And even as they did not like to RETAIN God in their knowledge (epignosis), God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; - then they HAD Epignosis.

HOWEVER
, since the term "retain" is NOT in the Greek, it merely says that they ". . . did not see fit to acknowledge (Epignosei) God . . ."

Either way - you LOSE.

If the verse says that they DIDN'T have Epignosis - this has absolutely NO bearing on the term "Epignosis". It simply means that they didn't have it - like the people in Rom. 11:22 and Heb. 10:26-27 did.

Look - the weight of evidence from Protestant scholarship is against you. These are Greek scholars who have given their lives to the study of the Greek manuscripts.
YOU, on the other hand, are just a little, angry anti-Catholic, posting on an obscure forum who doesn't have a linguistic leg to stand on.

I'll go with the experts . . .

No. I never said they didn't have 'epignosis'. And I believe you mean at least from post #57. They did have it. But, they are not saved. 'Epignosis' is not synonymous with being saved or born-again.

(Rom. 1:28,32) is clear. They had the knowledge, 'epignosis', but they were not saved. (Rom. 1:18-3:20).

Your 'epignosis' argument is DOA. Better for you to cut your losses and go to something else. You can't change it. And isn't it terrible, the believers are still saved.

Stranger
 
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Mjh29

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WRONG.
We HAVE a choice to choose God or to choose evil.

The problem that YOU and Calvin have is that you actually believe that God only gives the grace to believe to SOME - and tosses the rest into Hell.

That would render MANY Scripture verses a LIE . . .
1 Tim. 2:4
states emphatically that God WILLS the salvation of ALL people and that ALL come to a knowledge of the truth.

John 3:16 tells us in NO uncertain terms that God so loved the WORLD - that He gave His only begotten son; that WHOSOEVER believes in Him should NOT perish but have everlasting life.

Either Calvin is right - and God is a LIAR - or Calvin is wrong and God is ALL truthful.

Um, about the John 3:16 thing.... I would think that someone who has spent so much time trying to beat others into submission using the Greek texts would take a little bit of time to do the same for this one. the whosoever...in the Greek... is "All that."

And doesn't everyone believe that God gives grace to some? Or do you think that everyone will be in Heaven?

And, let's take 1 Tim 2:4 in its actual context, shall we?

1 Timothy 2:1-4 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

As plainly stated, The "All" people is actually making reference to all kinds of people; Jew, Gentiles, Slaves or Free, all kinds of people can now experience the blessings of God.

Calvin dedicated his life to the study of God.... you are just a grumpy little anti-Reformed person. I'll stick with the expert.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Um, about the John 3:16 thing.... I would think that someone who has spent so much time trying to beat others into submission using the Greek texts would take a little bit of time to do the same for this one. the whosoever...in the Greek... is "All that."

And doesn't everyone believe that God gives grace to some? Or do you think that everyone will be in Heaven?

And, let's take 1 Tim 2:4 in its actual context, shall we?

1 Timothy 2:1-4 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

As plainly stated, The "All" people is actually making reference to all kinds of people; Jew, Gentiles, Slaves or Free, all kinds of people can now experience the blessings of God.

Calvin dedicated his life to the study of God.... you are just a grumpy little anti-Reformed person. I'll stick with the expert.
WRONG.

If 1 Tim. 2:4 and John 3:16 are the truth - and I am banking on that - then that means God gives EVERYBODY the grace to believe. NOT everybody, however, will cooperate with that grace and choose to believe.

God is not some cosmic rapist who forces His love on some while damning the rest. He does not drag people kicking and screaming into Heaven against their will - NOR is He a monster who sends people kicking and screaming into Hell against their will. He gives US the choice.

That was something that an arrogant guy like Calvin simply couldn't handle . . .

Calvin was an arrogant little anti-Catholic who invented some bizarre things some 1500 years AFTER Jesus and the Apostles walked the earth. I'll stick with the Church that Jesus and His Apostles built . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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No. I never said they didn't have 'epignosis'. And I believe you mean at least from post #57. They did have it. But, they are not saved. 'Epignosis' is not synonymous with being saved or born-again.

(Rom. 1:28,32) is clear. They had the knowledge, 'epignosis', but they were not saved. (Rom. 1:18-3:20).

Your 'epignosis' argument is DOA. Better for you to cut your losses and go to something else. You can't change it. And isn't it terrible, the believers are still saved.

Stranger
No - you didn't say it - but you implied it.

Epignosis is what it is - whether YOU choose to believe it or not. It is indicative of a converted, born again person. I know this is difficult for you because so much of what you believe is riding on this.

Look - I don't know how much linguistic scholarship I have to produce before you swallow your pride but it's not MY problem. I've done my job.

The ball is in YOUR court with God.
IF you had an Epignosis of Him - I pray that you haven't now rejected it . . .
 

Mjh29

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If 1 Tim. 2:4 and John 3:16 are the truth - and I am banking on that - then that means God gives EVERYBODY the grace to believe. NOT everybody, however, will cooperate with that grace and choose to believe.

Im sorry... I gave my interpretation of these verses, but are you honestly saying that Jesus paid the price for sin, but it is up to us to make this payment valid? Are you honestly saying that we as fallen sinners have more power in their salvation than JESUS HIMSELF? That Christ is up in Heaven right now, ringing his hands, saying, "Oh boy, I do hope at least a FEW sinners put my sacrifice to good use, but.... it's up to them."
And I must ask, when you pray for the unsaved, do you say, "Oh, God, I wish there was more you could do to save them, but... you've done all you can do." I am sorry, but this is just foolish!

God is not some cosmic rapist who forces His love on some while damning the rest. He does not drag people kicking and screaming into Heaven against their will - NOR is He a monster who sends people kicking and screaming into Hell against their will. He gives US the choice.

God is not some cosmic rapist who forces His love on some while damning the rest. He does not drag people kicking and screaming into Heaven against their will - NOR is He a monster who sends people kicking and screaming into Hell against their will.

I agree. However, you treat man as though he doesn't deserve Hell! Of course God doesn't force anyone to do anything... He simply regenerates the hearts of His chosen people. They then come to see the beauty of Him, and love Him with a new, regenerated heart.

He gives US the choice.

Actually, He gave Adam, our representative head the choice. He failed, and forever enslaved the human race's will to sin. That is, unless od chooses to, in His love and mercy, regenerate us.

That was something that an arrogant guy like Calvin simply couldn't handle . . .

You call Calvin arrogant, yet you are the one who claims that "Yeah, Jesus died for my sins... but I was the one who made His sacrifice mean something. I was smart, and I chose correctly. Where as Calvin claims that he is nothing, and that there is nothing in him to make God choose him.
Right.... HE'S the arrogant one.
 

Stranger

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No - you didn't say it - but you implied it.

Epignosis is what it is - whether YOU choose to believe it or not. It is indicative of a converted, born again person. I know this is difficult for you because so much of what you believe is riding on this.

Look - I don't know how much linguistic scholarship I have to produce before you swallow your pride but it's not MY problem. I've done my job.

The ball is in YOUR court with God.
IF you had an Epignosis of Him - I pray that you haven't now rejected it . . .

No, I said what I said. And I have proved from the Scripture that your 'epignosis' argument is DOA.

Get over it. Move on. The believers are still saved. Rejoice.

Stranger
 
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soul man

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He understands it.
The N.T. teaches that loss of salvation is possible.
Faith leads to salvation.
No faith leads to no salvation..at any time and whenever it happens.

If FAITH is necessary to be saved, then when we lose faith we also lose our salvation.

The life is in Jesus. No Jesus, No life.

Why would a Christian even entertain the thought, the knowledge of good and evil at best, you will see that one day. We all go through it trying to keep believers saved some how, vicious cycle.
 

BreadOfLife

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No, I said what I said. And I have proved from the Scripture that your 'epignosis' argument is DOA.
Get over it. Move on. The believers are still saved. Rejoice.

Stranger
Funny how much you anti-Catholics HATE the science of linguistics - as much as you hate history . . .
 

Mjh29

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Funny how much you anti-Catholics HATE the science of linguistics - as much as you hate history . . .

I hate neither linguistics nor history, in fact I am a student of Koine myself. I do find it interesting how you only respond to the linguistics when they apply to your defense, however, when others use those same linguistics to ahow an error in your thinking you ignore it. To make sure there is no confusion, I ageee with Stranger. You cannot loose your Salvation, it was never up to you to keep. You may try and twist words, but I stand with Paul when I say I am confident that Christ will keep my soul, which I have committed to His trust, to the very end.
 

Stranger

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Funny how much you anti-Catholics HATE the science of linguistics - as much as you hate history . . .

I'm not anti-catholic. I'm not even anti-roman.

Your linguistic argument of 'epignosis' is dead. No science can resurrect it.

Stranger
 
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BreadOfLife

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I hate neither linguistics nor history, in fact I am a student of Koine myself. I do find it interesting how you only respond to the linguistics when they apply to your defense, however, when others use those same linguistics to ahow an error in your thinking you ignore it. To make sure there is no confusion, I ageee with Stranger. You cannot loose your Salvation, it was never up to you to keep. You may try and twist words, but I stand with Paul when I say I am confident that Christ will keep my soul, which I have committed to His trust, to the very end.
First of all - Paul never teaches OSAS.

Secondly - your security IS eternal - as long as YOU cooperate with His grace.
That's what the following verses are ALL about (Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).
 

Dan57

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There is nothing in the Bible that says you can return.

Stranger

So your saying the Prodigals Son perished because his Father refused to take him back? There are lots of verses which imply that a person can return to the faith after backsliding. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). You think that this is a one time event? "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness" (Galatians 6:1). This would seem to indicate that a person who strays can be restored. "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10). In order for someone to be lost, they would have had to of strayed away in the first place. "For they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God. Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings" (Jeremiah 3:21-22).

Backsliding simply means; a person who had salvation and turned their back on God. I believe Hebrews 6:4-6 might be referring to a person who is spiritually enlightened, but yet intentionally denies the faith. This would be tantamount to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is unforgivable. But for a person who has just fallen away to temptation or struggles with belief, I don't think the door to salvation is ever slammed shut.
 
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Mjh29

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First of all - Paul never teaches OSAS.

Secondly - your security IS eternal - as long as YOU cooperate with His grace.
That's what the following verses are ALL about (Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

Philipians 1:6

He who began the good work will perfect it. Period. And what you are pushing is a heresy called works righteousness. You cannot do anything good, that includes "cooperating with God." What kind of a weak God is dependant on your cooperation to save you? A false god, who does not exsist. My God saves sinners, your God watches idly as sinners save themselves.
 

BreadOfLife

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Philipians 1:6
He who began the good work will perfect it. Period. And what you are pushing is a heresy called works righteousness. You cannot do anything good, that includes "cooperating with God." What kind of a weak God is dependant on your cooperation to save you? A false god, who does not exsist. My God saves sinners, your God watches idly as sinners save themselves.
Matthew 23:37
Luke 13:34

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and YOU WERE NOT WILLING.

It's ALL about cooperating with God's grace.

The god YOU'VE invented for yourself is a Cosmic Rapist who forces His love on people - whether they want it or not.

MY
God - the God of Scripture allows us to freely choose His love - or to reject it.
That is TRUE LOVE . . .
 

Mjh29

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Matthew 23:37
Luke 13:34

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and YOU WERE NOT WILLING.

It's ALL about cooperating with God's grace.

The god YOU'VE invented for yourself is a Cosmic Rapist who forces His love on people - whether they want it or not.

MY
God - the God of Scripture allows us to freely choose His love - or to reject it.
That is TRUE LOVE . . .

You seem to love the cosmic rapist remark very much. Good to know we r here to kindly discuss topics. My God changes the hearts of men, after all if the heart of the king is in his hand, whose isn't? What about when God hardened Pharaohs heart? Was that Pharaohs choice? We only come to see the Glory of God after he reaveals it to us, and changes our wills. I think you misunderstand our position in this universe; we are Gods creation. And by right of creation, He owns us all. You seem to think that mans will is perfectly untainted, so let me ask you this: why do some choose and not others? How is it fair that some were raised in the church, and others on the streets, and yet your god expects us all to "be smart enough" to make the right choice. How is this fair and just? What about the heathen in Africa? How can they pass the test when they don't even get to study? Why are you so fixated on being able to stake a claim in your salvation??!
 

Mjh29

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Matthew 23:37
Luke 13:34

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and YOU WERE NOT WILLING.

It's ALL about cooperating with God's grace.

The god YOU'VE invented for yourself is a Cosmic Rapist who forces His love on people - whether they want it or not.

MY
God - the God of Scripture allows us to freely choose His love - or to reject it.
That is TRUE LOVE . . .

Your question is referring to universalism, and there are several texts of Scripture that appear to speak to this: Ezekiel 18:23, 32; 33:11; I Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9. However, when properly studied, it is seen that they are in fact not universal texts. Neither do these verses imply that the saving grace of God is resistible fully and finally by God's elect.

In Luke 13:34 (also Matthew's account in Matt. 23:37) there is no hint in these verses that God's divine decree can be successfully resisted fully and finally just because someone is "unwilling." The Bible is clear on the teaching that, if someone is "unwilling," they are acting according to their depraved nature to hate God (John 3:18-20; 7:7; 15:8, 23; Eph. 2:1-3; Rom. 1:30; 8:3-8; John 12:40; Romans 9:18, 11:7), and if someone is willing, it is because God makes him so (John 6:44, 65). No one that God makes willing can stay away (John 6:37). God's grace for the elect is irresistible!

Let's look at the verses in question:

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

First, we must ask what is meant by "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem." Without taking into account the rest of the context of Matthew 23 or Luke 13, it looks as though Christ is addressing every person in Jerusalem. However, the context does not bear witness to this. Note that Jerusalem here is said to "kill the prophets and stone those who are sent." Who are these that have done these atrocious crime(s)?

As suggested byThe Spirit of the Reformation Study Bible, this is akin to the parable of Christ in Matthew 21:33-46 which is based on Isaiah 5:1-7 and probably reflects Psalm 80:8-18. Here there is a landowner who is God (Matt 23:33). The vineyard is the Kingdom of God (Matt 23:43). The servants are the prophets which were beaten, stoned, and killed (Matt 23:35-36) by the tenants. The son of course is Jesus (Matt 23:37-39). The tenants are the Jews opposed to the prophets and Jesus (Matt 23:34-40). They murder the son just as they mistreated the prophets of the past. The tenants have done these atrocious crime(s).

The context of our text parallels this. In Matthew 23:2 Jesus begins with his own explanation: "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees (tenants) sit in Moses' seat." Then in Matthew 23:13 and following, Christ begins with the "woes" of the leaders of Jerusalem and ends in Matthew 23:23 with, "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?" Thus, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem" refers to the leaders of Jerusalem (again, referring to the tenants of Matt. 21).

Also, note in our two texts above that Jesus states he desires to have gathered the "children," not all "Jerusalem." It is not God's elect resisting, rather it is the seed of the serpent (the leaders of Jerusalem, the tenants) waging war with God's servants (Gen. 3; Rev. 12), whom Christ is gathering. This "Jerusalem" was temporarily preventing the children from being gathered. It is these unregenerate ones that are resisting the proclamation of the Gospel because it is in their nature to do so (John 12:40; Romans 9:18; 11:7; Acts 7:51). How were they preventing this? By killing the prophets and stoning them, etc. They even crucify the very Son of God!

In this passage, Jesus is wrapping up his final rebuke of judgment against the leaders (seed of the serpent) who opposed him (the seed of the woman). They were trying to keep the children of Jerusalem (chicks) from coming to salvation; but, as Matthew 23:38 states, their house will be left desolate to them. In other words, as much as the leaders of Jerusalem desire to prevent the elect of Israel from being gathered to Christ, he will gather them despite their resistance.
These verses, then, show God's irresistible grace and his sovereignty rather than in any way challenging it.
http://reformedanswers.org/answer.asp/file/40223
 

Stranger

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So your saying the Prodigals Son perished because his Father refused to take him back? There are lots of verses which imply that a person can return to the faith after backsliding. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). You think that this is a one time event? "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness" (Galatians 6:1). This would seem to indicate that a person who strays can be restored. "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10). In order for someone to be lost, they would have had to of strayed away in the first place. "For they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God. Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings" (Jeremiah 3:21-22).

Backsliding simply means; a person who had salvation and turned their back on God. I believe Hebrews 6:4-6 might be referring to a person who is spiritually enlightened, but yet intentionally denies the faith. This would be tantamount to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is unforgivable. But for a person who has just fallen away to temptation or struggles with belief, I don't think the door to salvation is ever slammed shut.

I didn't say there was no return for one who is backsliding. I said there is no return taught for one who loses his salvation.

The Prodigal Son, didn't cease from being a son. His sonship was not restored.

(Luke 19:10) speaks to our initial salvation. Not to a restoration due to losing ones salvation after being born-again. The term 'lost' is used because it does indicate previous possession by God. That previous possession was all the sons of God that would be born of Adam. Because of the fall, they went down with Adam. Two seed lines are born now. Only one line is of God. They are lost, because they were always His. The other line is not lost, as they were never of God. They are children of wrath and the devil.

Backsliding does not mean a loss of salvation.

(Heb. 6:4-6) is a warning of judgement here against sin that God will not allow a believer to repent of. It is not a loss of salvation.

When one becomes a believer in Jesus Christ, is born-again, when he enters that door of salvation by faith, it slams shut and there is no going back. No loss of salvation.

Stranger
 

Taken

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WRONG.
Epignosis is NOT simply knowing (oida).
That's the thing that you guys keep denying and dancing around.

Psalms 91:11-12
Satan is very knowledgeable of Scriptures.

Men can also be very knowledgeable of Scriptures.

Knowing the Scriptures does not mean Believing, Trusting, Following or submitting oneself to a Conversion.

Satan twisted Scriptural meaning, men twist Scriptural meaning, you inparticular twist Scriptural meaning for men in Scripture and AND For men who do not agree with your understanding.

You have copied these Scriptures umpteen times and been answered umpteen times while repeatedly claiming no one answered you.

Why not be honest and say you have repeatedly asked and no one has come forward to answer you with an answer that you explained as your understanding?
 
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Mjh29

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Psalms 91:11-12
Satan is very knowledgeable of Scriptures.

Men can also be very knowledgeable of Scriptures.

Knowing the Scriptures does not mean Believing, Trusting, Following or submitting oneself to a Conversion.

Satan twisted Scriptural meaning, men twist Scriptural meaning, you inparticular twist Scriptural meaning for men in Scripture and AND For men who do not agree with your understanding.

You have copied these Scriptures umpteen times and been answered umpteen times while repeatedly claiming no one answered you.

Why not be honest and say you have repeatedly asked and no one has come forward to answer you with an answer that you explained as your understanding?

I agree. I believe the underlying problem is that we sometimes tend to neglect taking the Scriptures as a WHOLE, and sometimes let our own misinterpretation of a few select verses warp out theology
 
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