Catholic Distinctives: Prelimary Questions

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Berserk

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It was totally relevant. The OP was wanting evangelicals to answer questions about Catholic distinctives. And relics and their veneration are definitely one of them.

No, you must learn to read. The OP posed questions about the meaning of particular texts in God's Word that evangelicals like you and Addy find so threatening to your anti-Catholic agenda that you can't even apply God's Word to your faith! The OP does not ask about Catholic dogma, but rather poses PRELIMINARY QUESTIONS about relevant biblical texts!
 

Addy

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evangelicals like you and Addy find so threatening to your anti-Catholic agenda that you can't even apply God's Word to your faith!
If I were you... I would not put Enoch and I in the same sentence... HE does not like me very much... He calls me Baddy.... As for your assessment of me... and the use of the word threatening.... I would prefer if you change it to the PROPER way I feel... which is REPULSION. Thank you. LOL
 
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Addy

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also @Berserk .... You will kindly notice that I did offer to remove my posts from this thread after realizing that it was in a category I did not know existed.... therefore... I really don't think you want to get the bees in my bonnet going.... so it's probably best to just NOT bother attacking me.
 
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Berserk

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also @Berserk .... You will kindly notice that I did offer to remove my posts from this thread after realizing that it was in a category I did not know existed.... therefore... I really don't think you want to get the bees in my bonnet going.... so it's probably best to just NOT bother attacking me.

Well, you could have removed your offensive posts on your own, but tellingly you didn't! And your admitted "repulsion" when asked to consider biblical texts that don't fit your anti-Catholic agenda is even more telling! Hence, the relevance of my judgment that you and Enoch will say practically anything to avoid the hard work of critical engagement with relevant texts in God's Word.
 

dev553344

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As a lifelong evangelicals, I note that we evangelicals typically ignore the ensuing set of questions that should precede discussion of Catholic doctrinal distinctives:

I. QUESTIONS PRELIMARY TO A DISCUSSION OF CATHOLIC CONFESSION OF TO PRIESTS:
(1) Why do evangelicals spend so little time searching their hearts for unconfessed sins of omission, thought, word, and deed?
(2) Why do most evangelicals devote so little time confessing their sins to each other?
"Confess your sins to one another...so that you may be healed (James 5:16)."
(3) Why do evangelicals ignore Jesus' authorization of His disciples' role as mediators of divine forgiveness? "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained (John 20:22-23)."

II. QUESTIONS PREMINARY TO A DISCUSSION OF THE REAL PRESENCE OF CHRIST IN THE ACT OF PARTAKING OF HOLY COMMUNION:
(1) Why do evangelicals duck the fact that Jesus relocates His discussion of Holy Communion from the Last Supper (John 13:2ff.) to John 6?
(2) Why does Jesus mean when He teaches that He comes to abide in "those who munch on (Greek: "trogo") my flesh and drink my blood (John 6:56)?" "Trogo" is never used figuratively!
(3) Why does Jesus say, "My flesh is real food and my blood is real drink (6:55) and then add, "Whoever eats me will live because of Me (6:57)?"
(4) Why doesn't Jesus explain that He is speaking figuratively about Holy Communion here to prevent the mass exodus of offended disciples who take Him literally (6:66)?
(5) Why are "many of you sick and ill and many have died" because you "eat and drink (the bread and wine) without "discerning the Body (1 Corinthians 11:29-30)?" Put differently, why are such dire consequences singled out only for "unworthy" Eucharistic participation?

III. QUESTIONS PRELIMARY TO A DISCUSSION OF THE DOCTRINE OF PURGATORY:
(1) Don't believers enter the afterlife with the same free will and flawed character that they had developed in this life? Then how can evangelicals with serious character flaws immediately enter a heavenly realm in which "nothing impure will enter (Rev. 21:27)?"
(2) Why is John shown a vision of the eternally open gates of Heaven ("the New Jerusalem") for the benefit of those "outside" the gates, the sinful dead (Rev. 21:25 as clarified in 22:15)?
(3) Doesn't Peter teach the doctrine of a 2nd chance for sinful deceased "spirits in prison" to hear the Gospel and get saved (so 1 Peter 3:19 as clarified in 4:6)?
(4) What is the postmortem purifying "fire" that tries flawed believers, so that they can ultimately be saved (1 Corinthians 3:15)?
(5) If Paradise is located in "the third Heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-3)," then might not the 2 lower Heavens include a realm like Purgatory? Ancient Judaism also locates Paradise in the third Heaven and sometimes teaches that the 2 lower heavens are spiritual dimensions.

IV. QUESTOPMS PRELIMINARY TO A DISCUSSION OF CATHOLIC PRAYING TO SAINTS:
(1) What do the righteous dead know about their loved ones on earth?
(2) If the righteous dead know about ongoing earthly persecution of Christians and intercede with God for divine intervention (so Rev. 6:9-10), does this not mean that the righteous dead monitor the earthly lives of their loved ones and continue to pray for them?
(3) In our race as spiritual athletes, righteous dead spectators ("a cloud of witnesses") are not said to precede us, but rather to actually "surround" us (Hebrews 12:1-2). Might one not reasonably infer that deceased righteous spectators remain aware of our plight, cheer us on and support us during our race?
(4) If the righteous dead pray for the living and remain aware of their earthly plight, why not infer that we can request (pray) that they pray for us in our hour of need?
In Paul's vision the same verb "euchomai" used for prayer to God is used for a prayer to Paul from a physically absent Macedonian man: "During the night Paul had a vision: There stood a Macedonian man, praying to him, saying, "Come over, and help us (Acts 16:9)."
The real problem here is that some people believed they are saved before their time has come. So many deny the judgments of God and go on living as if they are saved. Salvation only comes when you are resurrected and drawn into Heaven to be with God. I think people are coveting God's things and assume they are saved. Then they don't see that they are in need of salvation. Salvation is a life long work that only ends when you move onto the next life and are judged by God.

That might answer the entire OP.
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Addy

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Well, you could have removed your offensive posts on your own, but tellingly you didn't! And your admitted "repulsion" when asked to consider biblical texts that don't fit your anti-Catholic agenda is even more telling! Hence, the relevance of my judgment that you and Enoch will say practically anything to avoid the hard work of critical engagement with relevant texts in God's Word.
Again... this unpleasant and unnecessary exchange.... You are the one who beckoned me with your insults.
Let me be clear... My repulsion is not toward scripture... but rather towards the institution of the Roman Catholic Church... I have never made a personal post to any one of you. YOU are the ones who like to call people out... and I have placed everyone on ignore with the exception of you and Mungo.

I also have a problem with Catholics coming into a protestant forum for the sake of what you guys call DEFENDING your faith... as I am intelligent enough to know and understand that this is never accomplished.... and all it manages to do is cause a whole bunch of unnecessary strife. Catholics and protestants are not meant to discuss their faith with each other... they are polar opposite. However... these are not my forums... and like I learned this morning... there are actually appropriate forums to discuss these things.

All my posts come from my heart... and I am sorry you find them offensive... I happen to find them HONEST.

I will not apologize for my opinions about the Catholic Church... I was a member of this church for over 45 years... I speak with experience.

You label me an evangelical... and I call myself simply a Christian. I believe that the bible is the sole authority. I guess that also makes me a sola-scriptura gal.

The Roman Catholic church is based on false authority... It is a works based religion/world power... and is not pleasing to God. That is my opinion... I own it... and I am entitled to it.

I would again advise you to BACK off and simply allow me the mistake that I have already admitted to making... As for automatically removing my posts.... there was no reason to do so... Mungo did not seem to care.
 
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tsr

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The Early Church Fathers believed that the Catholic Church was the one true Church, that it taught infallibly and that the clergy was made up of three ranks; bishop, priest, and deacon.

Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church

The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said





Read more: https://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/church-fathers/the-early-church-fathers-in-the-first-two-centuries-and-catholic-distinctives/



Read more: https://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/church-fathers/the-early-church-fathers-in-the-first-two-centuries-and-catholic-distinctives/
 

Enoch111

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...find so threatening to your anti-Catholic agenda...
Really? That's hilarious! Nothing in the Catechism of the Catholic Church is threatening to any Bible-believing Christian. You need to catechize the catechumens with the Word of God (Mt 4:4).
 
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Berserk

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Addy: "Let me be clear... My repulsion is not toward scripture... but rather towards the institution of the Roman Catholic Church."

But this thread is not about Catholic institutions; it is about PRELIMINARY QUESTIONS about God's Word BEFORE we even get to Catholic institutions.
So why are you ducking the questions raised in God's Word?

Addy: "I also have a problem with Catholics coming into a protestant forum for the sake of what you guys call DEFENDING your faith... as I am intelligent enough to know and understand that this is never accomplished...."

Then why are many evangelicals in my community leaving their evangelical churches to find God real in our local Catholic church? Hmmm. You are simply admitting that you yourself are too closed-minded to learn from other Christian traditions.
And as you have already been reminded, this is a Christian forum, not just a Protestant forum, and evangelicals here regular start anti-Catholic threads. So Catholics here are simply and admirably obeying Peter's command: "Always be ready to make your defense to anyone who demands an accounting for the hope that is in you (1 Peter 3:15)." A faith not worth sharing and defending is not worth believing!

Addy: "I will not apologize for my opinions about the Catholic Church... I was a member of this church for over 45 years... I speak with experience.

Why do you think spewing your anti-Catholic prejudice helps this thread when you offer no concrete rationale for your comments? You claim to "speak with experience." Now show that you speak with biblical knowledge!

Addy: "The Roman Catholic church is based on false authority... It is a works based religion/world power... and is not pleasing to God. That is my opinion... I own it... and I am entitled to it."

But you cast aspersions on your own faith by finding it necessary to share your odious and misguided opinion without being willing or able to defend it by engaging the OP's biblical texts that are merely preliminary to an engagement with Catholic doctrine.
 

Taken

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As a lifelong evangelicals, I note that we evangelicals typically ignore the ensuing set of questions that should precede discussion of Catholic doctrinal distinctives:

I. QUESTIONS PRELIMARY TO A DISCUSSION OF CATHOLIC CONFESSION OF TO PRIESTS:
(1) Why do evangelicals spend so little time searching their hearts for unconfessed sins of omission, thought, word, and deed?
Why do most evangelicals devote so little time confessing their sins to each other?

(2) Why do most evangelicals devote so little time confessing their sins to each other?
"Confess your sins to one another...so that you may be healed (James 5:16

my perspective in brief;

Sin is Against God.
My "sin" Against God has been resolved, between myself and God "according to" Gods Order and Way.

I have been MADE by my Lord Gods Power "with and IN" me, unable to SIN ANY MORE.

No need to confess what has already been forgiven.
No need to hope for healing that I already have.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Addy

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@Berserk .....and... if you would have taken the time to RESPECT the fact that I made an error by commenting on THIS particular thread....there would be no problem..... I have tried to back out.... and I even did so graciously by asking Mungo if he wanted me to remove my posts. You keep engaging me in unnecessary communication. I am thinking perhaps ALL the CATHOLICS will have to go on IGNORE.
 
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Berserk

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Really? That's hilarious! Nothing in the Catechism of the Catholic Church is threatening to any Bible-believing Christian. You need to catechize the catechumens with the Word of God (Mt 4:4).

No, what is hilarious is your inability to season your failure to recognize that the OP is not about the Catholic Catechism, but about texts in God's Word that pose preliminary questions before we even get to Catholic beliefs. You seem so gob-smacked by these texts that you feel constrained to sidetrack this thread to avoid the exposure of your ignorance of God's Word.
 

Addy

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Actually the OP is full of ACCUSATORY ASSUMPTIONS about Evangelicals... Catholics do not seem to like them very much...

(1) Why do evangelicals spend so little time searching their hearts for unconfessed sins of omission, thought, word, and deed?
(2) Why do most evangelicals devote so little time confessing their sins to each other?

REALLY???? you guys know an awful lot about Evangelicals...

I have placed you and Mungo on IGNORE... perhaps this Catholic nightmare can finally end for me.

I stand firm in my belief that the Catholics simply come to these forums to stir up strife.
 
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Berserk

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Addy: "Actually the OP is full of ACCUSATORY ASSUMPTIONS about Evangelicals... Catholics do not seem to like them very much...REALLY???? you guys know an awful lot about Evangelicals."

That's because I am a lifelong evangelical, who can speak from many decades of encounters with them and who is ashamed of my fellow evangelicals here because they are too bigoted to even to engage God's Word on issues relevant to Catholicism.

Addy: "I have placed you and Mungo on IGNORE... perhaps this Catholic nightmare can finally end for me.

O please do. Your prejudicial comments contribute nothing and sully the spirit of this thread. It's instructive that not a single fundamentalist here has dared to critically engage the OP's many biblical texts (not drawn from the Catholic Catechism!) that are relevant to Catholic distinctives.

Addy: "I stand firm in my belief that the Catholics simply come to these forums to stir up strife."

Here you are projecting your own contentious spirit on to Catholic posters, who, unlike me, are generally very patient and peaceful in their replies to their fundamentalist adversaries. Nothing is worse than Catholicism at its worst, but nothing is better than Catholic spirituality at its best. I once successfully sued a Catholic institution, but I revere their life-changing spirituality and so do the many evangelicals in my community who have fled their own churches to find God real in our local Catholic church.
 

Addy

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It is my opinion that this thread should be closed due to the aggressive agenda to simply ATTACK all those who come against.
This is not fruitful in any way... this cannot even be called DEBATING. The OP is filled with nothing but hateful judgements against
Evangelical Christians.

My last two cents worth.
 

Heart2Soul

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Well, you could have removed your offensive posts on your own, but tellingly you didn't! And your admitted "repulsion" when asked to consider biblical texts that don't fit your anti-Catholic agenda is even more telling! Hence, the relevance of my judgment that you and Enoch will say practically anything to avoid the hard work of critical engagement with relevant texts in God's Word.
Please, let's not complicate this.... a simple yes or no or even it doesn't matter would be sufficient....
Furthermore your assessment of the 2 mentioned above is based solely on your subjective view....therefore, it can not be relevant at all. Objective assessment is based on facts....what facts can you offer to prove your view is accurate?
Do you all see what I am doing? Pointing out the misuse of grammar....and this has been the problem with denominations all along....interpretation, grammar, knowledge and understanding of the topic at hand.
Sorry Mungo, not picking on you....your post was s perfect example of how our communication becomes corrupt through misuse and misunderstanding......
I don't follow the doctrine of any of the Catholic Churches.... but I don't condemn them for their belief....i share the Word and they share back and it is all good...all of us were encouraged and edified by the Word of God.

As far as the OP goes....I couldn't read it all....it is too long and the content is strictly one-sided without any objective data to support it. So it is merely an opinion piece.

Okay be blessed!
 
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amigo de christo

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Those questions are ignored and rightly so. Catholic apologists are convinced that they belong to the "true Church". End of discussion. So you can either join 'em or move on. There's no middle ground and there is no need to waste time on fruitless discussions.

Amadeus, an evangelical is one who believes that the Gospel ("the Evangel" or Good News) is central to everything else. And Christ is central to the Gospel. But the days of true evangelicals are over. The days of true fundamentalists are also over. And the days of the Reformers are definitely over. So what are we left with today? Spiritual confusion.

When Billy Graham -- a fundamentalist southern preacher -- began to involve the Roman Catholic Church in his crusades, that was the beginning of spiritual confusion.
Yes it was my friend . Billy led the way right to mama Rome .
This is what happens when you get unequally yoked with those you should not be yoked up with .
The days are about over . All we have now is a liquid form of religoin that is quickly taking shape
to a fit all suit all religoin of all religoins and even secular .
And this religon will teach obediance to their mother earth , social justice , equity , and serve the beast . And we aint at the beginning of it
we are watching it morph huge now . The lambs are just gonna have to cling to Christ , exhort each other and stay In that bible .
 
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amigo de christo

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It is my opinion that this thread should be closed due to the aggressive agenda to simply ATTACK all those who come against.
This is not fruitful in any way... this cannot even be called DEBATING. The OP is filled with nothing but hateful judgements against
Evangelical Christians.

My last two cents worth.
Addy , i hear ya my friend . But i am so used to getting called every name in the book . That any accusation just rolls off , like water on
a double greased duck .
 
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Heart2Soul

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It is my opinion that this thread should be closed due to the aggressive agenda to simply ATTACK all those who come against.
This is not fruitful in any way... this cannot even be called DEBATING. The OP is filled with nothing but hateful judgements against
Evangelical Christians.

My last two cents worth.
Thank you for your input, but we are children of the Most High and it is fruitful to be challenged in such a way as to strengthen you in your spiritual growth....
At the end of the day take a pen a paper and reflect back on today's events....any regrets? Celebrations? Any notable conviction on your heart?
These are just examples and then close your eyes and rewrite the script and play it in your mind....does your rewrite have a happier conclusion?
P.S. Invite the Holy Spirit to help you reflect on today all things good or bad.
This is healthy and very helpful for growing stronger in Him.
The thread will stay open...but you have the choice to continue or move on to another topic.
God Bless
 

Berserk

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Heart2Soul: "Furthermore your assessment of the 2 mentioned above is based solely on your subjective view....
therefore, it can not be relevant at all."

No, it is based on their irrational virulent anti-Catholic posts and consistent refusal, despite my pleas, to at least consider the relevant questions arising from biblical texts foundational to this debate.

Objective assessment is based on facts....what facts can you offer to prove your view is accurate?
My facts are (1) the biblical texts cited in the OP that cry out for interpretation of their relevance and meaning
(2) my lifelong exposure to evangelical attitudes and practices and my many years of experience as an evangelical pastor and a theology professor and the consensus of my professional colleagues about typical evangelical attitudes


Heart2Soul: "As far as the OP goes....I couldn't read it all....it is too long and the content is strictly one-sided without any objective data to support it. So it is merely an opinion piece."

You shouldn't criticize what you don't understand, and since you didn't bother to read the OP through, you are not competent to assess the questions posed by the cited biblical texts. Do evangelicals in your church gather to confess personal sins to each other? I think not.
Do your evangelical church leaders "forgive sins" as Jesus commands in John 20:22-23?
Does your church stress the sacraments as a vehicle by which Jesus comes to indwell participants? Read through and engage; and if you imagine I'm mischaracterizing evangelicals attitudes, say so. In my experience, their attitudes are consistent over the various places and countries in which I have lived.