Catholics

[BreadOfLife]

this is why one should not feed trolls

Not feeding - just exposing them.

 

[BreadOfLife]

sure--"BreadofLife."

Hmmmm -= can you actually point to ONE single hypocritical statement I've made?
I didn't think so.

You may disagree with my views but none of them have been hypocritical - unlike yours . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

The difference is - I don't engage in name-calling . . .

...and then you woke up lol

 

[BreadOfLife]

...and then you woke up lol

Ummmmm, prove it, then.

 

[bbyrd009]

And you accuse ME of "name-calling".
Anyway - I listed the Scriptural refutations in my post - YOU didn't.

Can YOU say, "Hypocrite"??

Don't call ANYBODY Father? REALLY??
That's not what MY Bible says . . .

DRB
9And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven.

 

[bbyrd009]

but please take this as rhetorical, ok; i'm not interested in another one of your vapid lies, that only make you feel better for a minute and ignore Scripture

 

[BreadOfLife]

Uh-huh - and I destroyed that false interpretation already:

- Jesus said, “Your FATHER Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” (John 8:56).

- St. Stephen refers to "our FATHER Abraham," (Acts 7:2).

- St. Paul speaks of "our FATHER Isaac” (Romans 9:10).

- For I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

- We see in Matt. 19:5, Mark 10:7 where Jesus quotes Gen. 2:24, which states: “That is why a man leaves his FATHER and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.”

- In Eph. 5:31, Paul quotes the very same verse. The Greek same word for FATHER, πατερ (pat-ayr’), is used in all 3 verses.

- God commands us to “Honor your FATHER and Mother” (Exod.20:12).

 

[Marymog]

Lovely to meet you Mary, also lovely to hear that you are still seeking/curious, as I find many people saying they are Christians have stopped doing what Jesus recommended we do :" Ask, seek and knock."
I am more than happy to answer you, if indeed you really are interested, your 'tone' was a tiny bit perplexing, but perhaps it is because English wasn't my first language, so I choose to give you the benefit of a doubt. I will tell you what Church I belong to, and how I KNOW this.
I had been brought up my entire life with no religion / faith system / spirituality or anything which wasn't part of the seen world, and that went for 100% of my family members, it was simply one of the things I recall was never allowed to be discussed, along with money and politics. Then when I was 30 years old, I had and was rescued by Jesus from what they now call a 'near death experience '. After He rescued me from a place I NEVER want to get anywhere near again, as well I would hate for anyone else to go to such a place, He came to me, first it just looked like super bright/white light ( but didn't hurt my eyes ), then the light turned into a person. I cannot explain to you how, but I knew instantly who He was, which I found odd later, as He didn't look like a few 'pictures' or statues I had seen over the years. After expressing my surprise that He had come to someone like me, to which He simply replied :" You called." and one other question I asked Him, which He also answered, I asked :" Do I have to go to church now that you have come to see me?" to which He said, holding out His right hand and arm toward me :" You are the Church! People are the Church! If you are going to compare it to a building, then you are a brick in My Church, along with those who believe."............His reply obviously went over my head, because I then asked :" But is it ok if I do go to Church?", and to this He said :" By all means, that's where you meet those who likewise believe.", and before you assume, NO, He did not say 'By all means' in the way of "By all means necessary, or any sort of MUST do.
Now, there is a lot more to my initial testimony of Him, but I will leave it there, as you asked about what church I belong to, well my answer is, by His words I belong to HIS Church. As far as the hierarchy goes? Absolutely, He is my King, my High Priest, my Intercessor, my Shepherd and a lot of other things, and I am His subject, His servant, His sheep, along with all other believers. We may all have different talents and/or gifts and we may be at different stages of our development.
He showed me a long time ago, that it can be quite dangerous for a Christian to use and study the bible, without His and/or The Holy Spirits input/wisdom/understanding and knowing, as first we assume that all the men written about were somehow perfect, unable to make any mistakes, or without being affected by their previous teachings, which of course is a little silly. They were after all still un-perfected men and women. Jesus made it clear when He was still with His disciples, that the hierarchy you describe, was not to be with His own, that the Gentiles were the ones seeking such, and that it should NOT be so among them, because they were all brothers/family....I will quote Luke 22:25,26......(Jesus is answering the disciples questionings among themselves, as to who of them were the greatest.) " And he said to them :" The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them and those who exercise authority over them are called 'benefactors'. 26)....." But not so among you; on THE CONTRARY, he who is the greatest among you, let him be as the younger , and he who governs as he who serves."
Now Jesus was pretty clear, as He also shows the example of washing His disciples feet. But what did Peter do, when after Jesus' resurrection, all the believers gathered in the same place and shared everything and had everything in common, but one day a group come to Peter to let him know they did not get their share of the bread for that day, Peter, having obviously already forgotten how to serve, said that it was not 'fitting' for him to be bothered by such trivial matters, so he appointed people to be the servers, so he could on with the weightier matter of the word. Later in the book of Acts, Paul also has to rebuke Peter for being a hypocrite, for not wanting to sit with new non Jewish believers, once Jews came to sit near him. So let us NEVER make the mistake of thinking of the disciples, as though they were as perfect and without fault as Jesus was/is nor that they wrote everything out 100% correct. Only by revelation can we be assured of hearing the Truth, as when Peter said that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus lets Peter (meaning, small rocks/pebbles ) know, that flesh and blood did not reveal that to him, but The Father in heaven did. And on THAT ROCK ( the solid rock of revelation from above ) He ( Jesus ) will build His church, having just started with Peter.
Sorry this got a lot longer than I anticipated, can be difficult at times to explain the simplest of things, as they are often spiritually understood.
May I ask you please? How do you partake of Him ? Why do you believe that you need more intercessors than He ? Isn't He enough for you ? Have you experienced Him, or are you going by learnedness alone ? Please reply because I really am interested.
Love and blessings in Him Pia

Hi Pia,

Fascinating testimony.

You asked me: How do I partake of Him? I partake of Him in the bread and wine, just like He said to do. How do you partake of Him Pia?

The Apostles (scripture) CLEARLY set up a hierarchal Church and the earliest writings we have from Christianity CLEARLY follows scripture by establishing a hierarchal Church. In 2 Timothy it says "what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also". There were no, as you like to believe, "different stages of development" when it came to choosing Church leadership. Peter and Jesus taught Paul. Paul taught Timothy and he told Timothy to entrust that teaching to other men. Those men would then go on to teach other men etc. etc. When the Apostles replaced Judas with Mathias it is HIGHLY unlikely that he lacked the knowledge of Jesus teachings. I HIGHLY doubt he was in the 'early stages of development'. Church leaders are CHOSEN by other Church Leaders. Just like scripture says. You are right. We all have different talents and gifts. Some have the gift of leadership and they are ASSIGNED that position. Just like scripture says.

You asked me: Why do I believe that I need more intercessors than Him? I never said that. Unless you THINK that a leader of a Church is an intercessor? How do you define intercessor?

Furthermore, based on your non-biblical theory, if everyone is in a different stage of development in learning scripture does that not mean there needs to be a teacher? Does that mean that the person reading scripture for 60 years is right and the person only reading it for 5 years is more than likely wrong? That would be weird since they both have the Holy Spirit guiding them. Shouldn't they both be right?

Furthermore, prior to the printing press in 1439, the average person did not have a bible in hand to read and most people were illiterate. How did they learn scripture for the first 1500 years of Christianity? Church leaders?

Your belief that there is no hierarchy in a Christian Church is opposite of what Scripture says and opposite of 2,000 years of Christian practice.

Your belief system allows me to interpret scripture my way and you interpret it your way with both of us thinking we are guided by the Holy Spirit. You have your truth, I have mine. That means the Holy Spirit is confused because He told you one thing is true and he told me the opposite is true. Do you think the Holy Spirit is confused Pia?

Thank you for your testimony.

Love....Mary

 

[Job]

 

[BreadOfLife]

Jesus made it clear when He was still with His disciples, that the hierarchy you describe, was not to be with His own, that the Gentiles were the ones seeking such, and that it should NOT be so among them, because they were all brothers/family....I will quote Luke 22:25,26......(Jesus is answering the disciples questionings among themselves, as to who of them were the greatest.) " And he said to them :" The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them and those who exercise authority over them are called 'benefactors'. 26)....." But not so among you; on THE CONTRARY, he who is the greatest among you, let him be as the younger , and he who governs as he who serves."

Sorry - but Jesus wasn't talking about the leadership of His Church here. He was rebuking the Apostles because they were arguing about which one of them would be considered the "greatest".

As for who would be the greatest - he must serve the others. That's why the official title of the Pope is "The servant of the servants of God".
Jesus clearly appointed Peter as the leader in Matt. 16:18-19, Luke 22:31-32 and John 21:15-19.

Now Jesus was pretty clear, as He also shows the example of washing His disciples feet. But what did Peter do, when after Jesus' resurrection, all the believers gathered in the same place and shared everything and had everything in common, but one day a group come to Peter to let him know they did not get their share of the bread for that day, Peter, having obviously already forgotten how to serve, said that it was not 'fitting' for him to be bothered by such trivial matters, so he appointed people to be the servers, so he could on with the weightier matter of the word.

This is complete nonsense.

Why is it "wrong" to delegate smaller matters where there are more pressing matters?? Peter was just ONE man and could only do so much. Do YOU do everything at home and at work?? Do you run the entire company? Do you run every ministry in your church??

Then, why would you put that ridiculous expectation on Peter?
Everybody in the Body must do their share and not leave it to ONE person.

Later in the book of Acts, Paul also has to rebuke Peter for being a hypocrite, for not wanting to sit with new non Jewish believers, once Jews came to sit near him. So let us NEVER make the mistake of thinking of the disciples, as though they were as perfect and without fault as Jesus was/is nor that they wrote everything out 100% correct. Only by revelation can we be assured of hearing the Truth, as when Peter said that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus lets Peter (meaning, small rocks/pebbles ) know, that flesh and blood did not reveal that to him, but The Father in heaven did. And on THAT ROCK ( the solid rock of revelation from above ) He ( Jesus ) will build His church, having just started with Peter.

First of all - Peter was wrong when he wouldn't eat with Gentiles. Paul ALSO admitted to sinning (1 Tim. 1:15). John also told his readers that he was a sinner (1 John 1:8). - so what's your point?? That a leader of the Church cannot sin?? We're ALL sinners - including YOU.

As for your misinterpretation of Jesus calling Peter a "pebble" or "small" rock - this is a common mistake.
Jesus didn't call Peter a "pebble" - He called him "ROCK".

The Lord said to Peter: “And so I say to you, you are Peter (Petros), and upon this rock (Petra) I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

YOU say that He called him a pebble or small rock because the word "Petros" is used instead of "Petra", which means large rock. You believe that Jesus is the Rock here because he is referred to as Rock elsewhere, including, Matt. 21:42 and 1 Pet. 2:3-8. The problem with this is that Jesus didn’t speak Greek to his Apostles - he spoke Aramaic.

What Jesus actually said was: “And so I say to you, you are Kepha, and upon this rock Kepha I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”
This is why St. Peter is referred to as Cephas in many of St. Paul’s letters, because Cephas is the closest Greek transliteration of the Aramaic, Kepha.

There is another problem for you here: Petra is a feminine Greek noun and would NOT be used to describe a man, so the word was translated as Petros in Scripture because it was being used in reference to a man. Jesus clearly appointed St. Peter as earthly head of the Church and Chief Apostle here in Matthew’s Gospel as well as Luke 22:31-32, where he told Peter that he prayed for him alone to strengthen the other Apostles in his absence and in John 21:15-19, where he told Peter 3 times to feed his sheep.

By the way - Abraham is ALSO referred to as the "Rock" (Kepha) (Isaiah 51:1-2).

 

[BreadOfLife]

I'm GLAD you brought this up - so I can expose your ignorance yet again . . .

All of this Babylon mystery religion manure was first invented by a guy names Alexander Hislop.
Hislop was a 19th century anti-Catholic who wasn't very bright - but he really worked hard at his anti-Catholicism. He wrote a book called "The Two Babylons" that was filled with the same garbage that your little video has.

Anyway - he had some 20th century followers - and one of them, Ralph Woodrow wrote his own Book called Babylon Mystery Religion. Unfortunately for him - he started to do some actual research for a follow-up book - and what he found out ASTOUNDED him: Alexander Hislop was not only wrong - he made all of this up!

Woodrow quickly took his book out of print and now runs a website apologizing for his unsubstantiated attacks on the Catholic Church.
http://www.ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/babylon-mystery.html

So much for your manure-laden little video . . .

 

[ScottA]

I give them the honor they deserve as the leaders of the Church - just as Paul admonishes us:

1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOR, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine.

It's a shame YOU find it necessary to disobey Scripture . . .

And that is the problem: A leader or elder in the church, is never more than a fellow servant and a brother. But you have taken it too far.

 

[BreadOfLife]

And that is the problem: A leader or elder in the church, is never more than a fellow servant and a brother. But you have taken it too far.

That's NOT what the Bible says.
It says that they are worthy of DOUBLE HONOR:

1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOR, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine.

If YOU have a problem with that - then you really need to take it up with GOD - not His Church . . .

 

[ScottA]

That's NOT what the Bible says.
It says that they are worthy of DOUBLE HONOR:

1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOR, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine.

If YOU have a problem with that - then you really need to take it up with GOD - not His Church . . .

According to the same word, I rebuke a brother who puffs himself up, and those who raise up men in place of Christ (except in marriage). But you, you more than "double" the honor, counting a man, not as worthy of double, but as worthy of all, even as the Head.

 

[michaelvpardo]

This seems like a good place for a public apology.
To my dear brothers and sisters of the Roman Catholic Church, I owe you a deep and sincere apology for the hostility I've demonstrated at times over doctrinal issues and matters of tradition and practice.
I offer these things in the way of explanation, not excuse, so judge me as you will or forgive me in His name, so that a breach may be sealed and a division ended without the need of comprimise on the Lord's behalf.
I have made at least 3 vows or covenant oathes before God as an adult. The first that I can recall was my oath of enlistment in the military. The second was my marriage vows, though the ceremony was civil. The third was my church covenant with Grace Tabernacle, an independent baptist congregation. These oathes or covenants have no conflict though I am bound to them. However, I have no clear recollection of what I spoke or agreed to at the age of 13, when I reckoned myself to be a man, though far from it, and was confirmed in the Roman Catholic Church at a meeting of the congregation at Saint Martin of Tours (?) RCC at Bethpage, New York state, in the year of our Lord 1970. If I obligated myself in some manner to the RCC through my confession, then I hope that my covenants are not in conflict and ask your remediation or release.
I may show fealty to Christ Alone and may not blaspheme the Lord by applying His titles to men. Nor may I place the traditions of men above the word of God and all that implies. Nor am I alone in these divine requirements.
Forgive me for making early judgments, as that was never my province, and please forgive my penchant for legality as this was something that I was designed for.
To me, at the age of 13, and standing in my own righteousness, my confirmation was little more than a way to be out from under the authority of my mother and its significance was lost to me until now.

 

[mjrhealth]

That's absolutely false.

Jesus warned of wolves among His Sheep. This means that there would be bad people within the Church (Matt. 7:15).
Paul warned of the SAME thing (Acts 20:29).

Stop quoting the Bible until you LEARN what it says .

Quoted exactly what is says, whats teh issue, you need to get to know Jesus,
this bit,

Mar 9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

or this bit

Joh_10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Of course there are many who have found another way...

 

[BreadOfLife]

This seems like a good place for a public apology.
To my dear brothers and sisters of the Roman Catholic Church, I owe you a deep and sincere apology for the hostility I've demonstrated at times over doctrinal issues and matters of tradition and practice.
I offer these things in the way of explanation, not excuse, so judge me as you will or forgive me in His name, so that a breach may be sealed and a division ended without the need of comprimise on the Lord's behalf.
I have made at least 3 vows or covenant oathes before God as an adult. The first that I can recall was my oath of enlistment in the military. The second was my marriage vows, though the ceremony was civil. The third was my church covenant with Grace Tabernacle, an independent baptist congregation. These oathes or covenants have no conflict though I am bound to them. However, I have no clear recollection of what I spoke or agreed to at the age of 13, when I reckoned myself to be a man, though far from it, and was confirmed in the Roman Catholic Church at a meeting of the congregation at Saint Martin of Tours (?) RCC at Bethpage, New York state, in the year of our Lord 1970. If I obligated myself in some manner to the RCC through my confession, then I hope that my covenants are not in conflict and ask your remediation or release.
I may show fealty to Christ Alone and may not blaspheme the Lord by applying His titles to men. Nor may I place the traditions of men above the word of God and all that implies. Nor am I alone in these divine requirements.
Forgive me for making early judgments, as that was never my province, and please forgive my penchant for legality as this was something that I was designed for.
To me, at the age of 13, and standing in my own righteousness, my confirmation was little more than a way to be out from under the authority of my mother and its significance was lost to me until now.

Your apology sounds sincere.

I'm sorry to hear that you didn't take your Confirmation seriously. I know I did at that age.
Jewish boys, including our Lord receive their Bar Mitzvah at that age - and they manage to take it seriously enough.

Anyway - I'm not sure what you're talking about but the Catholic Church doesn't hold to "doctrines of men" that usurp Scripture.
Sacred Tradition is on par with Scripture - because Scripture says so (2 Thess. 2:15). There are other, minor traditions that are not on par with Scripture.

Finally - we don't give titles to men that only belong to our Lord. The Pope is not the Head of the Body - Christ is.
The Pope is the head of the earthly Church. You must remember - the Body of Christ doesn't just exist on earth - but ALL those who have left this world in Christ as well.

As Christ's vicar - he feeds His Lambs and tends His sheep (John 21:15-19).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Quoted exactly what is says, whats teh issue, you need to get to know Jesus,
this bit,

Mar 9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

or this bit

Joh_10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Of course there are many who have found another way...

Ummmmmm, like YOU . . .

Whichever "way" you've found - it's not the Lord's way.

 

[BreadOfLife]

According to the same word, I rebuke a brother who puffs himself up, and those who raise up men in place of Christ (except in marriage). But you, you more than "double" the honor, counting a man, not as worthy of double, but as worthy of all, even as the Head.

That's simply untrue.
As a hateful anti-Catholic - you shoot from the hip without thinking or doing ANY homework.
This ignorance is typical of your kind.

As I explaine dto michaelvpardo - The Pope is not the Head of the Body - Christ is.
The Pope is the head of the earthly Church. In case you forgot - the Body of Christ doesn't just exist on earth - but ALL those who have left this world in Christ as well.

As Christ's vicar - he feeds His Lambs and tends His sheep (John 21:15-19) - and is due the honor for that role, according to Paul (1 Thess. 5:12, 1 Tim. 5:17).

 

[mjrhealth]

Ummmmmm, like YOU . . .

Whichever "way" you've found - it's not the Lord's way.

actually it is He said there is only one way

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

or would you deny God when He says
This is my beloved Son: hear him.

or this bit

Joh_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

I gues you dont want to follow Him, thats ok thats between you and Him..