Chastisement & Scourging: The Fear of the Lord. Poison?

[Brothertom]

CHASTISEMENT & SCOURGING & LEARNING THE FEAR OF THE LORD WITHOUT IT YOU WILL DIE. POISON IN THE BODY...





Ron Hahn is my good friend who inspired this teaching...& writes an Exhortation down below....One of the most important Words for the Church today....I believe. Receiving it, or rejecting it will determine your forever...in Paradise or the Lake of Fire....Seriously.

There is poison afloat in the Body of Christ. It claims that you are saved by believing in the Cross, without being conformed to the Cross..Which only comes by repenting, turning back to the Discipline of the Lord.
But it is a lie. You are not saved by believing in the Cross. The Devils believe too, & tremble. There is no once saved always saved...You must be conformed to His likeness to become a son....or....your just a deceived Bastard...even if you were once a Virgin....you can become a Foolish Virgin.....One without the Oil of the Spirit that only comes by wanting His fire & correction to become like Him......Day by Day...even moment by moment....Crying out because you Fear Him....& Love Him.

Foolish Virgins shrug off His Conviction & live for themselves...they do not hate their lives as the Wise Virgins do...they love their own lives.

If you continue in this Doctrine of rejecting His discipline & Repentance He lovingly offers, & live your own way expecting His sacrifice to save you, you are in a grievous LIE...& in strong delusion.

Jesus speaks..............................

"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain.

He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also.

If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor."............

"UNLESS YOU EAT MY FLESH & DRINK MY BLOOD YOU HAVE NO LIFE IN YOU!"....

"For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.[SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

[SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me."...JESUS......................

It means Living a life depending on MERCY...being continually cleansed of our satanic self-life as we beg God to view us through Jesus's Holy Sacrifice....Covered by His Blood.

[SIZE=x-large]MERCY IS ONLY GIVEN TO THOSE WILLING TO REPENT![/SIZE]

[SIZE=x-large]It means we are called to be given over to continual burning, to be made Holy....the only way to be made Holy![/SIZE]

“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
[SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

If[SIZE=xx-small] [/SIZE]you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
!!!!!........... But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons..........!!!!!
Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?
For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful;
..... nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it."........

[SIZE=large]The following is a simple but powerful Word from my friend Ron Hahn...who today has the spirit of burning & trembling upon him...being possessed by the Fear of the Lord.....& I believe a Word...that the Holy Spirit Himself is speaking to His Own....both Wise Virgins & Foolish virgins.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=large]Do not be deceived. Without Holiness, & your responsibility to hate your life, Repent to Him always....you will be lost. He will utter the most Terrible Words a human could ever hear...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=x-large]Depart from Me!...I never KNEW YOU!..YOU SELFISH WORKERS OF INIQUITY!....[/SIZE]

BROTHER RON HAHN EXHORTS US.....
" I believe that, Chastisement, Scourging, and punishment By the Lord is progressive, and in graduated Steps for our good to learn obedience and repentance.
It’s To teach us the fear of the Lord and to obey him in all things: Lev 26:

I am sitting here trembling in fear at His word. I am afraid for you, I don’t think that you have learned the fear of the Lord. I believe if you or I, or whosoever do not learn the above, and come under him in fear and obedience. We will be lost. I have prayed for understanding. I am in sorrow and morning because of what I see. The whole world lies in iniquity and rebellion to God.

God is bringing all things into judgment, peoples, nations, believers and unbelievers, priests and prophets. Judgment begins at the house of God, to those that say they believe and follow him. His judgments on all that disobey him are progressive. If after he chastises them, they hear him and fear him, and they turn back to him, and repent from there way, he restores them.

[SIZE=small]If they do not repent turn from there disobedience, then he sends more judgment, and stronger. If they or we will still not repent of , and confess there our transgressions, and obey him, he again sends judgment. If eventually they still will not hear, and repent they will be turned over to their own way, and strong delusion,he removes his hand of correction from them and ....[/SIZE][SIZE=large]they will die in their sins & be lost.[/SIZE]

I believe that, Chastisement, Scourging, and punishment By the Lord is progressive, and in graduated Steps for our good to learn obedience and repentance. It’s To teach us the fear of the Lord and to obey him in all things: Lev 26:

Your Friend
Ron Hahn.


http://brideinthewilderness.blogspot.com/

 

[SelectThis!]

Here are some points I came to in another forum back in May. It's a slightly different teaching than you link in your thread. I thought I would share it with you for perspective. You are seeing a paradox between faith and works. Any time there is a paradox, there is a higher axiom to resolve the contradiction. Consider this:

1) Salvation can neither be earned nor taken.

---Salvation cannot be earned. None of your works are worthy of what God requires. Christ did what you cannot do, yet you must also do what Christ did. Although this seems like a contradiction, implying that works can save you, there is no contradiction.

2) Salvation is a free gift, yet it comes at a cost. There is no paradox in this statement.

--- Salvation cannot be taken. God's will is to give only and salvation is a gift, not something we can steal or claim as a possession. Taking something leaves a debt from the one who is victimized. Christ died to give salvation away as a gift, but that gift is given and not taken. This means that Christ can choose who he gives the gift to, yet demands nothing in return.

3) Your works cannot earn salvation, yet you must have good works or there is no salvation. There is no contradiction in this statement.

--- Faith in God is required to receive the name of Christ, yet this is not something earned. God gives the measure of faith and God is not associated in any way with sinners. In other words, the gateway to God's Heavenly kingdom is locked to sinners. Only one hand holds the key and salvation from Earth is necessary to walk into heaven in any way. The key was earned, yet Christ gives salvation through the door as a gift. God gives faith and Christ gives salvation.

4) Christ died on the cross as a free gift for all of mankind, yet not all of mankind will be saved. There is no contradiction in this statement.

--- Although the gift is free, it only goes to the one taking on the name. The name of Christ is the character, which produces a changed heart and good works. Once a heart is changed, works follow as a byproduct. The works do not save the individual. They are merely a sign that God has given faith and Christ has imparted salvation. The gift of faith is by mercy and salvation is a gift of grace.

5) Hell is very real and some people will end their existence there. This statement is not a paradox to what is mentioned above.

---Hell is a place for those who either TAKE the name in vain (Claiming the gift that is not given) or for those who deny God by unbelief. No gift can be taken.

You can read more of this from my first thread here: LINK. If you read the complete thread, I give the reasoning for this from the invariable symmetry law in physics. God is invariable and expects us to conform to this symmetry. Christ is the bridge between the gap of our sin and what is required. Faith is God's work in us. Salvation is the gift Christ gives to us after the work of God is complete. Faith removes law.

John 6

For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

As you say, we must be conformed to Christ, but this is God's work in us and not our work for God. Don't confuse the two or you fall into the trap of judging others. God is the one doing the work to point us to the Cross. We can reject this as verse 6:66 points. What is the process?

Consider what I just said and apply your teaching to Galatians 3.

Galatians 3

23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free,nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

What is a guardian?

Faith comes to us and justifies our sin. Christ comes and pays the price, but not before we are prepared. We must follow in faith. Again, what is the process?

John 2

23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name.[d] 24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. 25 He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.

They were coming to Him for salvation, yet he would NOT entrust Himself to them? Why? John 6 is the answer. The Father must prepare them. How? Baptism. Read the next chapter (John 3). You MUST be born again (Resurrected). Baptism is the immersion of the soul into the waters of life. We rise to new life by the work of the Father, but sharing the bread. The bread is baked in the oven by the trials of life. God does the work in us to gain salvation from the process. That salvation has not yet come. We are BEING justified. Again, not our work. God is doing the work. God can only give. He never takes. We can refuse to receive the gift. This is true.

 

[IBeMe]

renewedfaith1964: Does Jesus scare anybody? I have to be honest, he has always kinda scared me.
..........

We're supposed to fear God, unless we're real dense, or something.
As a matter of fact, we're totally clueless ... have no understanding of the Bible ... if we don't fear God.

Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

The fear of God is a wonderful thing, helps keep us on the right track.

It doesn't mean that we love God any less.

It means that we really believe in God and understand His Word and realize that we're in the middle of spiritual warfare that has eternal consequences.

The you know that it's a commandment to fear God?

Lev_25:17 Ye shall not therefore oppress one another; but thou shalt fear thy God: for I am the LORD your God.

 

[williemac]

Years ago I looked up the word "chastisement". This was in relation to Is.53:5..." the chastisement for our peace was upon Him" . To chastise is to punish for wrongdoing. On the other hand.."chasten", though it looks like a similar word, means correction for moral improvement. I often see people use one word as though it is the other. I noticed that the op uses them both as though they are the same. Small matter, I suppose. However, it is vital that we understand the difference. The punishment for sin was upon Jesus. But He has promised that those whom He loves, He will rebuke and chasten. And here is where I part ways with the op. The truth is that repentance from sin is not...I repeat, is NOT a requirement for salvation. Time and time again I see people who use the word "repentance" with no understanding as to what it means and how it ties in with salvation. So here goes an explanation...once again.

Repentance comes from two Greek words..."meta", and "noya". Spelling may vary. Meta is found in such words as metamorphosis. its most basic meaning is "change". "noya" is found in such words as paranoia. Its basic meaning is 'the mind'. To repent is to change one's mind.

In the bible, and in life, there are many things that we change our minds about. Even God changed His mind. So when we see the word, many make the mistake of automatically attaching it to sin. In fact, many make the mistake of defining the word as to turn from sin. That is an incorrect definition. One will inevitably wind up going down a big road of performance, leaven, and legalism in relation to justification, when one assumes that this is what it means.

We are justified by faith and faith alone. The repentance that leads to life is the changing of one's mind that causes him to turn to Jesus for forgiveness and life. For example, on the day of Pentecost, when the crowd witnessed the miracle of tongues, they asked what this means. Peter then stood up and addressed them (in one language, BTW). He told them about Jesus and how they had ultimately rejected their Messiah by killing Him. They were cut to the heart and asked "what shall we do?" He replied that they should repent and instead of rejecting Jesus, rather be baptized in His name for remission of sin. What did they repent from? The rejection of Jesus. What did they turn to? Faith in Him. The context makes no mention of turning from sin. In fact, it assures them that they will have their sins remitted (taken away).

Is repentance from sin invalid? No. But rather than it being part of our requirement for life and our justification, it is the RESULT of our having been born again. In terms of cause and effect, it is the effect, not the cause. This needs to be settled. The confusion and debate over this issue is causing much turmoil in the body of Christ. A case in point is E-7's agenda here.

We cannot and are not intended to work for, earn, or deserve by our own merit, eternal life. Let's get this straight. This error is termed in the bible as the leaven of the law. Leaven is that which is mixed into something. We cannot mix law and grace for salvation...period!

Grace, peace, and blessings to all.

 

[IBeMe]

.............
williemac: We are justified by faith and faith alone.
.............

We're justified, forgiven our past sins, when we ask Jesus into our heart.

We're accountable for all our actions, works, after that point.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

............
williemac: Is repentance from sin invalid? No. But rather than it being part of our requirement for life and our justification, it is the RESULT of our having been born again.
.............

That's false doctrine, Bro.
We're forgiven "past" sins.

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

If we sin, then we glorify Satan.

"He that committeth sin is of the devil;"

Can't serve two masters!

Think it's OK with God if we serve Satan?

How desipient is that?

 

[williemac]

.............
williemac: We are justified by faith and faith alone.
.............

We're justified, forgiven our past sins, when we ask Jesus into our heart.

We're accountable for all our actions, works, after that point.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

............
williemac: Is repentance from sin invalid? No. But rather than it being part of our requirement for life and our justification, it is the RESULT of our having been born again.
.............

That's false doctrine, Bro.
We're forgiven "past" sins.

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

If we sin, then we glorify Satan.

"He that committeth sin is of the devil;"

Can't serve two masters!

Think it's OK with God if we serve Satan?

How desipient is that?

Yikes, I must risk insulting you by informing you that you either have been taught incorrectly or are unskilled in scripture interpretation.

You quoted a passage from Rom.3. I will go through it with you from my translation, the NKJ. vs.24.."..being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ" vs25..."whom God has set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith to demonstrate His righteousness because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed" vs.26. "to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." vs.27.."Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? but by the law of faith" vs.28.." Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law"

In that context, Paul is speaking of the time prior to the sending and sacrifice of His Son. In that age, He had forbearance to pass over sin. Paul did not say forgive it or remit it. He passed it over. Which sins did He pass over? Those that were previously committed. Previous to what? The cross. How do we know? Keep reading....vs.26.."to demonstrate at this present time..."

Here we have two eras. The one before the cross, and what Paul referred to as This Present Time! He is comparing two time frames. He is explaining God's strategy concerning sin. In anticipation of the cross, He passed over sins committed previous to it.

There is no mention is the context that this is about Him forgiving only the sins committed before salvation in an individual's case. It takes a wonderful but errant imagination to contrive that meaning from the text. In fact, Paul goes on to assure them that justification is not by the works of law but by faith in Christ.

How do we go from there to the pathetic idea that once a person is saved and forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness by faith, given the new man through the new birth by faith, have the old man of the flesh declared dead in Christ, crucified with Him...by faith...to somehow landing in a place where we must keep the law to maintain our salvation?

This is what you are saying. Sin is transgression of law. If the Christian must quit sinning in order to stay justified, then grace was only temporary. It was just there long enough to get a person justified. Then the fine print is brought out and grace goes out the window. REALLY?

Paul insisted that boasting is excluded. He echoes that in Eph.2:9. He is not commanding us to not boast. He is rather removing any possibility for it. However, if a person can stand before the Lord and demonstrate how he behaved himself for eternal life, then he is boasting. Want to see what it looks like? Go to Luke 18:10-14 and read about the two men praying. The one who went away justified was NOT the one doing everything right. He exalted himself and was abased. Jesus instructed them to humble themselves. God gives grace to the humble. Pride is the real issue. It is infinitely more deadly than any sin of the flesh. It is the original sin and is the actual test that all free will beings are under.

We do not sin. Not in God's eyes. He who is born of God cannot sin. Our spirit man, our new man, the part of us that is a new creation and is eternal, is righteous and holy already and will remain that way. In Eph.4:24, which informs us of all that, we are simply instructed to "put him on".
As well, John 5:24 promises us that he who is of faith will not come under judgment. It is only they who are not of faith that will be judged for their sin. Anytime the bible talks of judgment and condemnation for sin, it is referring to those who are not of faith.

Therefore, I implore you to turn back to faith and quit trying to please God for justification through your personal behavior. The two cannot live together. Refer to the letter to the Galatians if you disagree. That letter cannot be trumped or overruled. It is scripture. Whatever conclusions we come to from other passages must agree with the gospel of grace, not contradict it.

Justification through faith and law together, is the equivalent to serving two masters.

Our accountability to Jesus is not for the purpose of maintaining our gift of life. It is for the purpose of sitting on His judgment seat and either receiving or losing rewards. Period! We are exempt from the Great White Throne judgment.

Further to my reply above.

I have a question for you in light of your position. The bible says he who has the Son has life. John 5:24 says that by faith in Him we have everlasting life. We possess it now. So the question is...how many times do you suppose in a person's lifetime can he lose his life in Christ and get it back again?

 

[IBeMe]

.............
williemac: vs.26.."to demonstrate at this present time..."
.............

And, of course, you left off the rest of verse 26.

And, what happens when we read the rest of verse 26?

We see exactly what Paul was talking about, "and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus".

We're forgiven past sins at Salvation.

............
williemac: There is no mention is the context that this is about Him forgiving only the sins committed before salvation in an individual's case.
............

And we look and see that you're not telling the truth, because that's exactly what it is saying.

"for the remission of sins that are past" ... "of him which believeth in Jesus."


...........
williemac: How do we go from there to the pathetic idea ...
to somehow landing in a place where we must keep the law to maintain our salvation?
...........

We're not under the Mosaic Law.

We read the Bible and see that you're calling Jesus's words, a "pathetic idea."

"If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Do you love Jesus?

If a person sins, they're giving glory to Satan.

"He that committeth sin is of the devil;"

 

[williemac]

.............
williemac: vs.26.."to demonstrate at this present time..."
.............

And, of course, you left off the rest of verse 26.

And, what happens when we read the rest of verse 26?

We see exactly what Paul was talking about, "and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus".

We're forgiven past sins at Salvation.

............
williemac: There is no mention is the context that this is about Him forgiving only the sins committed before salvation in an individual's case.
............

And we look and see that you're not telling the truth, because that's exactly what it is saying.

"for the remission of sins that are past" ... "of him which believeth in Jesus."


...........
williemac: How do we go from there to the pathetic idea ...
to somehow landing in a place where we must keep the law to maintain our salvation?
...........

We're not under the Mosaic Law.

We read the Bible and see that you're calling Jesus's words, a "pathetic idea."

"If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Do you love Jesus?

If a person sins, they're giving glory to Satan.

"He that committeth sin is of the devil;"

Your reply reveals that you have no interest in examining the texts that are in question. In fact, I doubt you are really reading my replies. I quoted the entire verse 26, my friend.

Anyway...This is a no brainer. When we come to Jesus for the forgiveness of sin,OF COURSE the only sins we have at that time are those committed in our past. DUH! But what happens to future sins? As 1John 2:1 says, we have an advocate with the Father: Jesus...our High Priest.
However, as I shared, Rom.3:24-26 is a comparison between the way God handled sin before and after the cross. And BTW. vs.26 makes no mention of our past sins.
Jesus said if you love Me keep My commandments. But in regards to everlasting life, He had another thing to say. read all about it in John 5:24, and John 3:16. And if you must know, 1John 3:23, reveals the commandments of the Lord. They are to believe in Him and love one another. Count em' ; two.

I never once said we should not behave ourselves. There is nothing pathetic about that. Please do not apply my words to another subject. I specifically called it pathetic to suggest that we are to maintain our salvation through our behavior. That is legalistic and a doctrine of demons. This may sound harsh, but Paul did ask the Galatians who had bewitched them. Having begun in the Spirit, are we now being made perfect by the flesh?

And you never answered my question. However, I will also ask...if everyone who sins is of the devil, then this would include every Christian as well, would it not? Unless you are going to try to tell me that you don't sin. But alas, you took another passage from its context. You quoted 1John 3:8. How about going one further? vs. 9 says "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; AND HE CANNOT SIN, BECAUSE HE HAS BEEN BORN OF GOD".

So now we have a contradiction. John tells them in 2:1 that if they sin they have an advocate with the Father. Then in this place, he insists that a believer cannot sin. Well, you and I both know that anyone born of God can indeed sin. Otherwise your points are redundant. So what is he talking about? Very simple, that which is born of the Spirit IS spirit. Your new man, the part of you that is born of God, is righteous and holy (Eph.4:24), and cannot sin. It is your old man who takes the blame when you sin. However, this is resolved because when you came to Jesus, the old man was positionally placed on the cross with Him and is considered dead. God already killed us for our sin.

In fact, because Paul agreed with the law (Rom.7:16-22), he declared that when he sins, "it is no longer I who sin, but sin that dwells in me" (Rom.7:17&20)

This too deep for you? I hope not. It is a wonderful and liberating truth. We are no longer identified with any sin that still lingers in our lives.
The real danger here is when people place their trust in their behavior over and above what was accomplished by our Savior. In regards to salvation, the two don't mix. This is called leaven and is to be avoided.

 

[IBeMe]

.............
williemac: However, as I shared, Rom.3:24-26 is a comparison between the way God handled sin before and after the cross
.............

You're not telling the truth.

It means exactly what it says.
Remission of all our sins, "past", through faith in Jesus, when we ask Jesus into our heart.

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

It's impossible for God to allow us to sin.

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:"


..........
williemac: Jesus said if you love Me keep My commandments. But in regards to everlasting life, He had another thing to say.
..........

You're having trouble with the truth.

We do what God tells us to do or no cigar.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

..........
williemac: And if you must know, 1John 3:23, reveals the commandments of the Lord. They are to believe in Him and love one another. Count em' ; two.
..........

You're not telling the truth.

It says that that is a commandment, not the commandments.

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williemac: I specifically called it pathetic to suggest that we are to maintain our salvation through our behavior.
..........

You're mocking Jesus.

"Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."


..........
williemac: That is legalistic and a doctrine of demons.
..........

No, it's the words of Jesus.

"Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."


..........
williemac: This may sound harsh, but Paul did ask the Galatians who had bewitched them. Having begun in the Spirit, are we now being made perfect by the flesh?
.........

You don't know the difference between the Mosaic Law and the words of Jesus?


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williemac: Unless you are going to try to tell me that you don't sin.
..........

Are you the accuser?


..........
williemac: You quoted 1John 3:8. How about going one further? vs. 9 says "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; AND HE CANNOT SIN, BECAUSE HE HAS BEEN BORN OF GOD".
..........

I'm not surprised you can't understand that.

It doesn't say it's impossible to sin, it says the real people serving the Lord, don't sin.

This is what you called, a "doctrine of demons."

Read the next verse.

This is how "the children of the devil" are made manifest, they sin.


..........
williemac: So now we have a contradiction.
..........

We don't have a contradiction, we have someone trying to turn the "grace of our God into lasciviousness."

If we sin ignorantly, as we grow in the Word, we have and advocate.

If we wrong one another, we're to right our wrongs and be forgiving.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins"

"But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

..........
williemac: God already killed us for our sin.
..........


We're forgiven past sins at Salvation.

If you go back into sin after that, then it's manifest that you are, "the children of the devil."

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."


..........
williemac: In fact, because Paul agreed with the law (Rom.7:16-22), he declared that when he sins, "it is no longer I who sin, but sin that dwells in me" (Rom.7:17&20
.........

How silly!

You're really in confusion if you don't understand that Paul was speaking of man's plight under the Mosaic Law, before Salvation.

"always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men"

No, Paul didn't struggle with sin; Paul served Jesus, not Satan.

If we sin, we give glory to Satan.

If we stop sinning, then we glorify God, and justify the high price that was paid for Salvation.


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williemac: This too deep for you? I hope not. It is a wonderful and liberating truth. We are no longer identified with any sin that still lingers in our lives.
..........

Are you teaching, "We are no longer identified with any sin"???

"... certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness .."

 

[ENOCH2010]

Eternity is going to be a lonely place if we have to live a sinless life to get there," for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God "
I'm putting my faith in the blood of Jesus washing away my sins (past, present, and the one's I haven't committed yet) all my sins.

 

[williemac]

.............
williemac: However, as I shared, Rom.3:24-26 is a comparison between the way God handled sin before and after the cross
.............

You're not telling the truth.

It means exactly what it says.
Remission of all our sins, "past", through faith in Jesus, when we ask Jesus into our heart.

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

It's impossible for God to allow us to sin.

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:"


..........
williemac: Jesus said if you love Me keep My commandments. But in regards to everlasting life, He had another thing to say.
..........

You're having trouble with the truth.

We do what God tells us to do or no cigar.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

..........
williemac: And if you must know, 1John 3:23, reveals the commandments of the Lord. They are to believe in Him and love one another. Count em' ; two.
..........

You're not telling the truth.

It says that that is a commandment, not the commandments.

..........
williemac: I specifically called it pathetic to suggest that we are to maintain our salvation through our behavior.
..........

You're mocking Jesus.

"Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."


..........
williemac: That is legalistic and a doctrine of demons.
..........

No, it's the words of Jesus.

"Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."


..........
williemac: This may sound harsh, but Paul did ask the Galatians who had bewitched them. Having begun in the Spirit, are we now being made perfect by the flesh?
.........

You don't know the difference between the Mosaic Law and the words of Jesus?


..........
williemac: Unless you are going to try to tell me that you don't sin.
..........

Are you the accuser?


..........
williemac: You quoted 1John 3:8. How about going one further? vs. 9 says "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; AND HE CANNOT SIN, BECAUSE HE HAS BEEN BORN OF GOD".
..........

I'm not surprised you can't understand that.

It doesn't say it's impossible to sin, it says the real people serving the Lord, don't sin.

This is what you called, a "doctrine of demons."

Read the next verse.

This is how "the children of the devil" are made manifest, they sin.


..........
williemac: So now we have a contradiction.
..........

We don't have a contradiction, we have someone trying to turn the "grace of our God into lasciviousness."

If we sin ignorantly, as we grow in the Word, we have and advocate.

If we wrong one another, we're to right our wrongs and be forgiving.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins"

"But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

..........
williemac: God already killed us for our sin.
..........


We're forgiven past sins at Salvation.

If you go back into sin after that, then it's manifest that you are, "the children of the devil."

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."


..........
williemac: In fact, because Paul agreed with the law (Rom.7:16-22), he declared that when he sins, "it is no longer I who sin, but sin that dwells in me" (Rom.7:17&20
.........

How silly!

You're really in confusion if you don't understand that Paul was speaking of man's plight under the Mosaic Law, before Salvation.

"always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men"

No, Paul didn't struggle with sin; Paul served Jesus, not Satan.

If we sin, we give glory to Satan.

If we stop sinning, then we glorify God, and justify the high price that was paid for Salvation.


..........
williemac: This too deep for you? I hope not. It is a wonderful and liberating truth. We are no longer identified with any sin that still lingers in our lives.
..........

Are you teaching, "We are no longer identified with any sin"???

"... certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness .."

This is a debate I am used to having. I can hold my own on this one as I have been engaged in it for many years. I hope time permits me to give you the respect and the explanations you deserve. In the meantime, please do not underestimate God's power and His will to save a wretch like you and me.

John in his revelation in exile, saw a multitude that no one could number. This lines up with what God told Abraham, that his descendants would be as the sand of the sea. God made a promise, and his fulfillment of it is His doing, His way, and to His glory.

In regards to Rom.7, it makes no difference if you think somehow that Paul's words were symbolic. The rest of the letter makes clear that justification does not come by the keeping of any law, but it is rather a free gift of grace, through faith in the blood sacrifice of Jesus. In fact, Rom.10:9,10 is very specific in revealing how salvation is attained. The abstinence from sin is not part of it. Not that it is unimportant. But it has no part in justification of a person for life. I have reminded you why. It is so that no man can boast. As I shared, the real issue for eternal life is not our behavior. It is in our willingness to humble ourselves and acknowledge that we are hopeless and helpless without and apart from His grace and mercy. Any possibility to boast has been removed from the qualification for life.

I am grieved that there are many who feel that God needed help to solve the sin issue. But this was predictable. I assure you, He does not need your help. In fact, He insists that you let go of trying to help Him defeat sin, defeat Satan, and defeat death. He has demanded that we humble ourselves.

I showed you the passage in 1John that one who is born of God cannot sin. Your reply was that John meant he won't sin, not that he can't. O really? You deny the word "cannot'? The verse prior to it is where John says one who is born of God does not sin. But John went further. He added the word "cannot" to 'does not'. Two sentences. Two different phrases. Deny it if you wish, if that suits your self saving agenda.

Now I will forgive you for suggesting that I am turning the grace of God into lasciviousness. But of course, what other conclusion could you possibly make? You think my agenda is to condone sin? Of course you don't. Not if you have actually read and believed what I have been saying. I am not saying sin is o.k. Shame on you for citing that verse in my direction.

I am saying that sin is already defeated by the sacrifice of Jesus. I am saying that as Paul reminded us, we have this treasure in earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7). He left us in the flesh for various reasons. But one fact is that we are going to be perfected at a later date. The work has only begun in us. The old man, though he is declared dead, is alive and well. The new man is righteous and holy. (Eph.4:24) Did you forget that verse? But I assume you have never studied or been taught about our new nature. It is about being a new creation. And this is God's work, not ours.

Be that as it may, we have a promise from the mouth of Jesus, that through faith in Him, we will not come into judgement, but have everlasting life and have (past tense) passed from death to life. I suggest you look at that verse (John 5:24) and carefully consider it.

I will tell you what gives glory to God. He gets the glory for saving sinners.

But as for sin, do not underestimate His will to leave 99 sheep and go after one who has strayed. Do not mock His method which includes the chastening of His people. If He didn't chasten us, He might have cause for rejecting us. But His ways are above our ways.

Man has been conditioned in this world to earn his way, to earn respect, to merit his wage. It is counter intuitive to receive life as a free gift. But Rom.8:32 in the NKJ says that all things that come to us from God are freely given. And in 1Cor.2:12, we see the same thing, that the Holy Spirit has been given to reveal to us the things freely given to us by God. But there is only one way to accept life freely. Through humility. It is the pride in a person that cannot accept the free gift of life. Think about that.

As for your viewpoint about Rom.3:24-26, I suggest you use a more reliable translation. Or at least compare a few of them. You will find that it says it the way I am describing it.

 

[SelectThis!]

To the original poster. I

CHASTISEMENT & SCOURGING & LEARNING THE FEAR OF THE LORD WITHOUT IT YOU WILL DIE. POISON IN THE BODY...









http://brideinthewilderness.blogspot.com/

I am very curious of your opinion to my post in this thread. Here is the link: LINK

Can you deconstruct this by the light our your friend's position in the link you provided?

 

[williemac]

What a long post, my friend! In some places it seems a little vague. But I will comment on one part first. It seems a little Calvinistic in the part where you say that faith is a gift from God. It supposes that faith is the qualification for receiving life. It is not. It is the 'method' by which we receive. The qualification is humility. God gives grace to the humble. While some may argue that faith is a gift, humility is not. It is the test of all "free will" beings. Lucifer was the first to fail it, and as Satan, his agenda is to produce offspring of his offense; to be like God. This is why I oppose the same kind of stance that Paul opposed, in any attempts to be or remain justified through anything other than faith and humility. Only God can give life. As you have said, we cannot take it.

Further to this, I disagree with your calling the new birth "resurrection". Paul spoke of the resurrection as a future event when we all are given a new body. In the meantime we have 'this treasure' in earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7), in a body of flesh and sin. However, this 'treasure' is that which is called our new man. It is a new spirit, for that which is born of the Spirit IS spirit. So we have God's righteousness and holiness (Eph.4:24) in our new man and Adam's sin in our old man of the flesh. The middle ground is our soul, our mind. We can choose to walk in either of the two natures. Paul told them to put off the old man and put on the new man.

God's solution to the sin issue is much deeper than merely demanding man to behave himself. His cure is to do away with our species altogether and start over with those who are spiritual offspring of His Son. "Having been born again, of incorruptible seed" (1Pet.1:23) This is a process that begins with the new birth and is finished at the resurrection.

And this is where our brother falls off the wagon of concept. He has reduced this to a matter of behavior for reward of life.
However, the fruit that we bear can come in degrees. For example, Jesus used 100, 60, and 30 (Mark 4:20). In contrast, those who espouse doctrines such as the one I am opposing here, usually speak in absolute terms. And this of course is a reflection of the law, which has zero tolerance.

The reality is that a believer can bear some fruit and have some sin in his life at the same time. In fact, this is actually the reality for all of us. No one is righteous in behavior 24/7, 365. And no one is sinful all the time. However, the legalist simply looks at the negative and condemns a person in spite of the fruit that is there and in ignorant bliss of his own failures. However, Jesus has assured us that He will not break a bended reed, nor snuff out a smouldering wick.

Our works will be tested in the fire at the judgment seat of Christ, where rewards will be given or lost. This is not a seat that determines our eternal life. My prediction is that those works that are done for the purpose of preserving or maintaining one's own survival, will be burned. Motivation is key. An apple tree does not bear apples to become an apple tree. It does so because it IS an apple tree. It's not pure fruit if it's done for the wrong reason.

Our friend quoted from Jesus.."depart from Me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you" The negative person looks at the 'workers of iniquity ' as the reason He is saying this. But the key is in ..."I never knew you" . Anyone who is not in Christ by faith, He does not know, and the wrath of God abides on him, as he is identified by his sin. Jesus does not say "I used to know you". He says "never". It is a mistake of our brother to apply this to a sinning believer. The believer will not be identified by his sin, as it has been remitted, removed from God's record.

Other than those two areas I have concerns with, your post is a decent commentary in my opinion. Thank you. blessings, Howie

 

[SelectThis!]

What a long post, my friend! In some places it seems a little vague. But I will comment on one part first. It seems a little Calvinistic in the part where you say that faith is a gift from God. It supposes that faith is the qualification for receiving life. It is not. It is the 'method' by which we receive. The qualification is humility. God gives grace to the humble. While some may argue that faith is a gift, humility is not. It is the test of all "free will" beings. Lucifer was the first to fail it, and as Satan, his agenda is to produce offspring of his offense; to be like God. This is why I oppose the same kind of stance that Paul opposed, in any attempts to be or remain justified through anything other than faith and humility. Only God can give life. As you have said, we cannot take it.

I will answer more after you have a chance to reply to this. Please don't confuse what I am doing here. I am not arguing with you, but showing you how I think. Let me misquote a scripture, then you tell me what is wrong with my quote.

By faith are you saved through grace...

And the this quoted correctly:

"...no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father." (John 6:65). And this: "...all that the Father gives to Me will come to Me." (John 6:37).

I have no idea if I am Calvinistic or not. I go by scripture first. Life was first given to the Son of God (Colossians 1). He is the firstborn image of God. 1 Corinthians 15 makes the relationship clear:

1 Corinthians 15

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits;then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Life comes from resurrection and baptism. The first Father is the one that created Adam.

Luke 3

the son of Kenan, 38 the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.

What did Jesus mean by, "I and the Father are one?" Don't be so sure you know.

Job 19 shows us who the Son of God is:


25 I know that my redeemer[c] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.[d]
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[e] in[f] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!


28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,[g]’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.[h]”

The root of the trouble came through Adam. The Redeemer is the last Adam.

1 Corinthians 15

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive...

...If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. [SIZE=.75em]45 So it is written: “The first man Adam[/SIZE] became a living being”[SIZE=.65em][f][/SIZE]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

The gift of redemption came through Christ, but God gave Him the opportunity. The gift of long-suffering of the prodigal Son is the Father welcoming him back and giving the feast in his honor.

Who is the Son? The loaf and slices.

1 Corinthians 10

16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

All ordinances (like baptism being our immersion into the Jordan) have a final meaning applied to the Son of God. We are HIS body.

If you get what I am saying here, the paradigm shift in understanding clarifies the two opposing sides with the excluded middle. There is no paradox. Christ was fully man. He has been with us all along.

 

[williemac]

Not sure what you are getting at, but 1Cor.15:52 talks of the resurrection timing. At the last trumpet. This has not yet occurred. But yet, he who has the Son has life....now. The new birth is also the receiving of a (temporary) spiritual body. This happens first, upon the acceptance of Jesus by faith (John 3:16). One must have a spiritual body in order to arrive in the spirit realm. Those who have died and are with Christ now, have the tent that Paul described in 2Cor.5:1. Two tents. One for this realm and the other for the next. But neither are that which we receive at the resurrection. That body will be more of a hybrid. In the beginning there was no separation between realms. It was all one realm. But the fall of man caused the split, and the new heavens and new earth will see a restoration of the original. This is seen by the heavenly city coming down to the earth. The new body will be like the one that Jesus possessed before ascending to the throne. He was both physical and spiritual at that time, in a manner of speaking. FYI, the new spirit we received upon the new birth is that which Jesus called the new wine skin. It comes to facilitate the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Who is the new wine. He will indwell the resurrected body as well, I assume.

The scripture you misquoted has a meaning, misquoted or not. The meaning is that we are saved by grace (a free gift) which comes by way of (through) faith. Not sure what that point was for.

My advice is to not over think things to make them seem more profound than they are. Intelligent folks have that tendency. Jesus is He who was God and was with God in the beginning (John 1:1). His birth into the world was a miracle. He left His glory that He had with the Father. It was restored back to Him. There are many things in scripture, as you also see, that point to Jesus. " I and the Father are one" is probably meant to say that they are of the same species (for lack of a better word, of course).

 

[SelectThis!]

Not sure what you are getting at, but 1Cor.15:52 talks of the resurrection timing. At the last trumpet. This has not yet occurred. But yet, he who has the Son has life....now. The new birth is also the receiving of a (temporary) spiritual body.

Don't skip anything. It's important you get this right. If I am wrong, please show me.

I'll stop you at that statement just for a minute. You are absolutely correct, but being born again is not the act while living. It is the immersion into the waters that brings life. This is the paradigm shift that is necessary to see the rest of the story. We have been in the water with Christ the entire time. You must be born again. The seed is sown each season. Also, consider the sheep in the field. How often do the sheers come out? When the wool is taken, the Shepherd dies the wool white as snow (immersion). What is done with the seasonal wool? A new robe (Body) and crown (mind). Involution and evolution is the ancient concept of Baptism and rising to new life. Wikipedia has a good article on this: Involution and Evolution. I will eventually make a thread on this subject. The key is in 1 Kings 17.

[SIZE=.75em]42 [/SIZE]So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; [SIZE=.75em]43 [/SIZE]it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; [SIZE=.75em]44 [/SIZE]it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. [SIZE=.75em]45 [/SIZE]So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[SIZE=.65em][f][/SIZE]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. [SIZE=.75em]46 [/SIZE]The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. [SIZE=.75em]47 [/SIZE]The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. [SIZE=.75em]48 [/SIZE]As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. [SIZE=.75em]49 [/SIZE]And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[SIZE=.65em][g][/SIZE] bear the image of the heavenly man.

As John 3 states, union with the Spirit comes from the process. We must be raised on the last day with Christ here on Earth. You find the Day of the Lord throughout scripture. Until them, Elijah prepares the way by turning the water back on. See 1 Kings 17 and then compare to Jesus saying that John the Baptist was Elijah.

Another place to see this is in the Hebrew, Greek and Latin. AMEN is AMN in Hebrew. It is the word True. AMN in Greek and Latin is Lamb.

AMN is Lamb
AMNi is River of Life (Jordan)
AMNio is the bowl catching the sacrifice of the Lamb
AMNion is the sac in the mother's womb, also the bowl of Amnio. Same word.
AMNiotic Fluid is the water of the womb of the mother.
AMNesia is the condition of the water. This is the Inconscience of Involution, or the veil of the Temple. You forget.
AMNesty is when God forgets your trangression.
dAMNation is when God does not forget.

Here is one to make you think. What did Satan say to God when Job's children had been killed?

Job 2

[SIZE=.75em]3 [/SIZE]Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”
[SIZE=.75em]4 [/SIZE]“Skin for skin!” Satan replied.

What does a snake do? Sheds skin, but it is the same snake. By this, he was reminding God that the children would be back. Where they?

Or this one from Hebrews:

Hebrews 7

[SIZE=.75em]8 [/SIZE]In the one case, the tenth is collected by people who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living.[SIZE=.75em]9 [/SIZE]One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, [SIZE=.75em]10 [/SIZE]because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.

Levi, while still in the body of his ancestor, was there when Abraham met and paid the tithe for Israel.

It's hard to see until you do. Once you do, it's easier to see salvation as a process. It's easier to see why we are fishers of men. We are fishing them out of the water. The water is the flood of beasts traveling with the ARK (Son of God).

The new birth is also the receiving of a (temporary) spiritual body. This happens first, upon the acceptance of Jesus by faith (John 3:16). One must have a spiritual body in order to arrive in the spirit realm. Those who have died and are with Christ now, have the tent that Paul described in 2Cor.5:1. Two tents. One for this realm and the other for the next.

You are correct to a point, but Paul knew something in Acts 24.

[SIZE=.75em]15 [/SIZE]and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. [SIZE=.75em]16 [/SIZE]So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

He knew he would be there at the end when BOTH the righteous and wicked were together. The end times is where Revelation tells you this:

1:7 [SIZE=.75em]7 [/SIZE]
“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”[SIZE=.65em][a][/SIZE]
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”[SIZE=.65em][b][/SIZE]
So shall it be! Amen.



The generation that pierced Christ would be present to see Christ return. EVERY eye will see, even JOB.

Job 19


[SIZE=.75em]25 [/SIZE]I know that my redeemer[SIZE=.65em][c][/SIZE] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.[SIZE=.65em][d][/SIZE]
[SIZE=.75em]26 [/SIZE]And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[SIZE=.65em][e][/SIZE] in[SIZE=.65em][f][/SIZE] my flesh I will see God;
[SIZE=.75em]27 [/SIZE]I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!


[SIZE=.75em]28 [/SIZE]“If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,[SIZE=.65em][g][/SIZE]’
[SIZE=.75em]29 [/SIZE]you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.[SIZE=.65em][h][/SIZE]”


His eyes and not another. The Son of God is Adam (root of the trouble) and the Redeemer (Last Adam). They are the same. We, who are many, are ONE loaf. To be fully man, Christ must be like us. He must be born again. We have traveled together.

Two tents. One for this realm and the other for the next.

Correct, but never seperated. You are entangled. Did you read my thread on this subject: Matthew 18 and Quantum Entanglment

The scripture you misquoted has a meaning, misquoted or not. The meaning is that we are saved by grace (a free gift) which comes by way of (through) faith. Not sure what that point was for.

Yes. Through faith first. The Father must choose and prepare. This was at the foundation of our reality. God already knew the end form the beginning.

My advice is to not over think things to make them seem more profound than they are. Intelligent folks have that tendency. Jesus is He who was God and was with God in the beginning (John 1:1). His birth into the world was a miracle. He left His glory that He had with the Father. It was restored back to Him. There are many things in scripture, as you also see, that point to Jesus. " I and the Father are one" is probably meant to say that they are of the same species (for lack of a better word, of course).

I cannot agree with this. If I am correct, and the quote, "you must be born again" means that we are looping with Christ throughout the story, then we have some apologies to make to those sentenced to hell. God is long-suffering and this is much more than our vision of one life to life. Jesus makes it clear. The dead in Christ will rise!

I have saved the best for last. Please tell me what this means. Am I correct in baptism being a 'symbol' for the flood of Noah and our involution into the waters of life? What dead were resurrected to life?

[SIZE=.75em]18 [/SIZE]For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. [SIZE=.75em]19 [/SIZE]After being made alive,[SIZE=.65em][d][/SIZE] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— [SIZE=.75em]20 [/SIZE]to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, [SIZE=.75em]21 [/SIZE]and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[SIZE=.65em][e][/SIZE] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, [SIZE=.75em]22 [/SIZE]who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

If you were baptized in the Spirit of God, you would not be here below. Christ is the head. We are the body.

 

[Dodo_David]

Folks, your arguments are not made better by your use of extra-large font sizes. Doing so just make you look as if you are yelling.

 

[SelectThis!]

Folks, your arguments are not made better by your use of extra-large font sizes. Doing so just make you look as if you are yelling.

Noted. Thank you for the advise. I will try to use smaller fonts. Feel free to use the message feature and send me a private note so we don't derail this thread. I have a few other questions on popup scriptures. Maybe you could help with it.

 

[IBeMe]

williemac: This is a debate I am used to having.

Well, you're not really debating, you're just making things up.

williemac: In regards to Rom.7, ... but it is rather a free gift of grace, through faith in the blood sacrifice of Jesus.

Of course.

williemac: In fact, Rom.10:9,10 is very specific in revealing how salvation is attained. The abstinence from sin is not part of it. Not that it is unimportant. But it has no part in justification of a person for life. I have reminded you why.

You're not making any sense. The reason we need salvation is because we have sin. Jesus says He'll turn no one away. But, after all our sins are forgiven, we're responsible for our actions.

williemac: I showed you the passage in 1John that one who is born of God cannot sin. Your reply was that John meant he won't sin, not that he can't. O really? You deny the word "cannot'? The verse prior to it is where John says one who is born of God does not sin. But John went further. He added the word "cannot" to 'does not'. Two sentences. Two different phrases. Deny it if you wish, if that suits your self saving agenda.

That's beyond vacuity, Bro.
How gormless is that? ... A person can't sin?
Why did Jesus tell folks to sin no more?

williemac: I am saying that sin is already defeated by the sacrifice of Jesus. I am saying that as Paul reminded us...

This is what Paul reminds us;

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins ... certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries ... hath trodden under foot the Son of God ... counted the blood of the covenant ... an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace"

You're trying to turn the "grace of our God into lasciviousness."

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

williemac: But one fact is that we are going to be perfected at a later date.

You deny the blood of Jesus?

See, you're not debating at all, you're just making stuff up as you go.

At first you try make the ridiculous argument that Christians can't fall back into sin, the you say, perfected later.

You're spinning in confusion, you don't even know what you believe.
All you do is twist scriptures, but you're not clever enough to keep track of what you're twisting.

First, Christians can't sin ... then future sins forgiven... then, perfected later.

williemac: The old man, though he is declared dead, is alive and well.

If you listen to Satan.

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

williemac: ... we will not come into judgement, but have everlasting life and have (past tense) passed from death to life. I suggest you look at that verse (John 5:24) and carefully consider it.

You're not telling the truth.
It says we won't come into " [color = "red"]condemnation[/color] ."
And, faith without works is dead ... no works ... no believe.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

williemac: I will tell you what gives glory to God. He gets the glory for saving sinners.

But if we fall back into sin, then we glorify Satan.

williemac: ... chastening of His people ...

If we turn, and stop sinning:

"Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you."

If we continue in sin:

"But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;"

williemac: Think about that.

I thought about it ... didn't make any sense!

williemac: As for your viewpoint about Rom.3:24-26, I suggest you use a more reliable translation.

Means just what it says, "remission of sins that are past."

"He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings:"

 

[Dodo_David]

Noted. Thank you for the advise. I will try to use smaller fonts. Feel free to use the message feature and send me a private note so we don't derail this thread. I have a few other questions on popup scriptures. Maybe you could help with it.

My comment was for the general audience, and my comment was motivated by what I see in the OP of this thread.