Christ has already returned ?

[PeterAndroz]

Not what I see from Bible Scripture at all.

The 'saved' represent those 'chosen' who's names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world; these are Christ's "very elect" He pointed to at the end of the Matthew 24:24 verse that cannot be deceived. Those 'called' only are considered saved as long as they remain steadfast in the Faith waiting on Christ's coming.

Those 'sealed' is about God's Seal by The Holy Spirit against deception, especially at the end of this world. It is especially about Christ's "very elect" that cannot be deceived, but also those who can... be deceived yet remain steadfast in the Faith waiting on Jesus Christ's coming.

Both groups are deemed as Christ's elect, and are to be as one in Him and in The Father (John 17).

The difference is that the 'called' only can... still fall away IF they allow themselves to be deceived. These are the ones Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned to remain in the Faith, and not fall away, especially against the coming "man of sin" who will play Christ in Jerusalem at the end of this world.

"""""""The 'saved' represent those 'chosen' who's names were written in the book of life
Chosen at random or c/- foreknowledge ?

 

[Davy]

""""You are talking about a whole... lot of New Testament Scripture from those like Apostle Paul and Peter, not just Lord Jesus.
I'm talking about what Scripture teaches for today as listed here.
..
Who did Christ select as the Apostle & Minister to the Gentiles ?
Acts 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, ...
Rom 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles...
Rom 15:16
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God...
+++
The other Apostles agreed & knew who taught who
Gal 2:2
And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles,....
Gal 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:9
And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
++++
What is the role of an Apostle/Minister ?
To teach THEIR audience.
BUT NOW there are NO SEPARATE audiences ALL are equal :-
Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Col 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
++++
How are believers 'today' saved, sealed, justified, made righteous ?
By the SAVING Gospel that applies today.
Gal 1:11-12
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Eph 1:13
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
++++
The PERFORMANCE conditions :-
Titus 3:
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Gal 2:
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Rom 3:
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Eph 2:
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 4:
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
++++
Your 'deeds'/works/behavior/performance only decide your eternal rewards/loss
Rom 14:10
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
1 Cor 3:10-15
10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
2 Cor 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

But of course you can always CHOP OUT THOSE SECTIONS OF GOD'S WORD that I showed, and DENY them, JUST TO KEEP YOUR FALSE DOCTRINES OF MEN.

 

[PeterAndroz]

But of course you can always CHOP OUT THOSE SECTIONS OF GOD'S WORD that I showed, and DENY them, JUST TO KEEP YOUR FALSE DOCTRINES OF MEN.

Or you can add in sections to make your story sound credible.
I'm glad you are not like that Davy :)

 

[Davy]

"""""""The 'saved' represent those 'chosen' who's names were written in the book of life
Chosen at random or c/- foreknowledge ?

You don't study your Bible deep enough to know about that.

 

[Davy]

Or you can add in sections to make your story sound credible.
I'm glad you are not like that Davy :)

By that above statement, you just slandered the WRITTEN WORD OF GOD, for that is what I presented, the actual WRITTEN Word of God, which is WHY deceivers like you refuse to address the Scriptures that I post.

 

[Davy]

My understanding is that the elect believers (the "overcomers" who are sealed by the Holy Spirit during the church ages - Rev 2 & 3) are taken in the rapture (Rev 4:1) ... they return to the earth to live in the Millennium (Rev 19 & 20).

Those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit in the time between the Rapture and the Millennium are Jews converted under the ministry of the two witnesses (Rev 11).

That's a doctrine from men though, and not what The New Testament teaches about being 'sealed'...

2 Cor 1:21-22
21 Now He Who establisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the spirit in our hearts.
Webster

Eph 1:12-14
12 That we should be to the praise of His glory, Who first trusted in Christ.
13 In Whom ye also trusted, after ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Webster

Eph 4:30
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed to the day of redemption.
Webster

 

[markalan]

Not what I see from Bible Scripture at all.

The 'saved' represent those 'chosen' who's names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world; these are Christ's "very elect" He pointed to at the end of the Matthew 24:24 verse that cannot be deceived. Those 'called' only are considered saved as long as they remain steadfast in the Faith waiting on Christ's coming.

Those 'sealed' is about God's Seal by The Holy Spirit against deception, especially at the end of this world. It is especially about Christ's "very elect" that cannot be deceived, but also those who can... be deceived yet remain steadfast in the Faith waiting on Jesus Christ's coming.

Both groups are deemed as Christ's elect, and are to be as one in Him and in The Father (John 17).

The difference is that the 'called' only can... still fall away IF they allow themselves to be deceived. These are the ones Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned to remain in the Faith, and not fall away, especially against the coming "man of sin" who will play Christ in Jerusalem at the end of this world.

I think we are not that different in distinguishing two groups

You appear to be saying that the saved/chosen/elect/sealed are all one group who cannot be deceived. And the "called" are saved only if they do not fall away.

My terms may be different but that is very close t how I see it too.

 

[3 Resurrections]

If Jesus already returned the second time,what are we undergoing now in that second coming timeline of events ?

We are now waiting on Christ's THIRD coming in the distant future - the THIRD and final resurrection event which Paul gave in chronological order in 1 Cor. 15:20-28.

#1) "Christ the FIRST-fruits"
#2) "AFTERWARD" (epeita - following next in order) "they that are Christ's at His coming" (the second coming)
#3) "THEN (eita - next in succession) cometh the end" (the third coming) when Christ will put down all governmental structures of authority, power and rule. At this final "end" God will be "All and IN ALL" (1 Cor. 15:28) when there will no longer be any remnants of human wickedness in existence anymore that would require a governmental power structure of any kind to keep it in check.

 

[3 Resurrections]

If Christ has returned then when did the following occur ?
When Matt 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall b

From AD 66 until AD 70, when the entire Satanic realm was imprisoned within the besieged city of Jerusalem (Rev. 18:2). This produced horrific conditions of both spiritual and physical disasters that never happened either before or since then.

When 1 Thess 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Only resurrected saints participated in that event in AD 70. This verse was for those who had already been made "alive" (like Lazarus, the Matt. 27:52-53 saints, etc.) but who had still "remained" on the earth as Paul was writing that letter to the Thessalonians. These who had already been made "alive" by a resurrection process were caught up together in the air with all the newly-resurrected saints, to meet the physically-returning Christ in AD 70. On that AD 70 year's Pentecost day, to be exact (just as Daniel 12:11-13 had predicted for the 1,335th day).

When did 2 Thess 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

This "Man of Lawlessness" was a Zealot leader who rose to power briefly in Jerusalem in the AD 66 year. He had been formerly "restrained" by the power of the more moderate high priests up to that point (Ananias ben Nebedeus in particular, with whom the Thessalonians were familiar). But after Menahem murdered Ananias, for a couple weeks, Menahem (who came from the Zealot family of Judas the Galilean insurrectionist of Acts 5:37) pushed himself forward by presenting himself as the King of Israel in the temple itself, dressed in King Herod's regalia, stolen from Masada. The very "brightness of his coming" into power with Menahem's sudden meteoric rise was his own undoing. Menahem's rival Zealot leader, (Eleazar, son of the "restrainer", Ananias - whom Menahem had murdered and "taken out of the way" to gain the upper hand) soon rose up against Menahem and slew him and all his followers in Jerusalem in AD 66.

 

[Davy]

I think we are not that different in distinguishing two groups

You appear to be saying that the saved/chosen/elect/sealed are all one group who cannot be deceived. And the "called" are saved only if they do not fall away.

My terms may be different but that is very close t how I see it too.

We don't hear the proof examples in Scripture that much about this, but they exist. Apostle Paul's situation is a prime example of a 'chosen' sent one.

What was Paul (then called Saul) doing on the road to Damascus per Acts 9? He was acting in behalf of the Jewish Pharisees in hunting down Christians and bringing them back to Jerusalem to be tried by the Jews. Christ then directly intervened, and struck Saul down blind on his way to Damascus.

A direct intervention, Jesus revealed Himself to Paul, no doubts. Where was Paul's 'choice' to believe or not believe? As much as many preachers try to create one, no such choice idea is written there. Christ Jesus struck him blind and spoke to him, and Paul immediately recognized it was The LORD speaking, and asked Him what he should do. And Lord Jesus said Paul was His "chosen vessel".

What that points to is 'ownership'. Christ already owned Paul. It just wasn't time yet for Paul's ministry until that Acts 9 event. We have the same issue with Jonah who tried to get out of his God-given duty to preach to the city of Nineveh. God directly intervened in his life too, forced Jonah to fulfill it. That is a sign of a 'chosen' sent one that God already owns.

In Lord Jesus' prayer of John 17, He revealed these two groups, His chosen ones that He owned, and then those who would believe on Him by the preaching of His chosen Apostles.

Thus the "very elect" idea of the end of the Matthew 24:24 verse regarding that deception of great signs and wonders that coming false-Christ will work, Jesus said that IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, it would deceive even His "very elect". Jesus was pointing to His chosen sent ones He already owned. Just like Jonah or Paul, He does have the right to intervene in the lives of His chosen elect so that they cannot be deceived. He shows them, like Jesus revealed all things to His Apostles, but not to the multitudes of followers.

The 'called' only, Jesus will only show these if they have Faith and ask Him, and stay in His Word. Everything is already written in His Word as to what will happen in this world, and even into the next world. But like what He showed in the parable of the sower, 3 out of the 4 groups allow the devil to take the 'seed' (God's Word) away, opening them up to deception. Only the last group which had ploughed the ground, removed all the stones and thorns, were able to produce much fruit.

 

[Gray_Joy]

We are now waiting on Christ's THIRD coming in the distant future - the THIRD and final resurrection event which Paul gave in chronological order in 1 Cor. 15:20-28.

#1) "Christ the FIRST-fruits"
#2) "AFTERWARD" (epeita - following next in order) "they that are Christ's at His coming" (the second coming)
#3) "THEN (eita - next in succession) cometh the end" (the third coming) when Christ will put down all governmental structures of authority, power and rule. At this final "end" God will be "All and IN ALL" (1 Cor. 15:28) when there will no longer be any remnants of human wickedness in existence anymore that would require a governmental power structure of any kind to keep it in check.

I appreciate your commitment to Dispensational Premillennialism.

I do not subscribe to that ideology.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I appreciate your commitment to Dispensational Premillennialism.

I do not subscribe to that ideology.

Neither does he. Not even close. He's a preterist.

 

[PeterAndroz]

From AD 66 until AD 70, when the entire Satanic realm was imprisoned within the besieged city of Jerusalem (Rev. 18:2). This produced horrific conditions of both spiritual and physical disasters that never happened either before or since then.


Only resurrected saints participated in that event in AD 70. This verse was for those who had already been made "alive" (like Lazarus, the Matt. 27:52-53 saints, etc.) but who had still "remained" on the earth as Paul was writing that letter to the Thessalonians. These who had already been made "alive" by a resurrection process were caught up together in the air with all the newly-resurrected saints, to meet the physically-returning Christ in AD 70. On that AD 70 year's Pentecost day, to be exact (just as Daniel 12:11-13 had predicted for the 1,335th day).


This "Man of Lawlessness" was a Zealot leader who rose to power briefly in Jerusalem in the AD 66 year. He had been formerly "restrained" by the power of the more moderate high priests up to that point (Ananias ben Nebedeus in particular, with whom the Thessalonians were familiar). But after Menahem murdered Ananias, for a couple weeks, Menahem (who came from the Zealot family of Judas the Galilean insurrectionist of Acts 5:37) pushed himself forward by presenting himself as the King of Israel in the temple itself, dressed in King Herod's regalia, stolen from Masada. The very "brightness of his coming" into power with Menahem's sudden meteoric rise was his own undoing. Menahem's rival Zealot leader, (Eleazar, son of the "restrainer", Ananias - whom Menahem had murdered and "taken out of the way" to gain the upper hand) soon rose up against Menahem and slew him and all his followers in Jerusalem in AD 66.

From AD 66 until AD 70, when the entire Satanic realm was imprisoned within the besieged city of Jerusalem (Rev. 18:2). This produced horrific conditions of both spiritual and physical disasters that never happened either before or since then.


Only resurrected saints participated in that event in AD 70. This verse was for those who had already been made "alive" (like Lazarus, the Matt. 27:52-53 saints, etc.) but who had still "remained" on the earth as Paul was writing that letter to the Thessalonians. These who had already been made "alive" by a resurrection process were caught up together in the air with all the newly-resurrected saints, to meet the physically-returning Christ in AD 70. On that AD 70 year's Pentecost day, to be exact (just as Daniel 12:11-13 had predicted for the 1,335th day).


This "Man of Lawlessness" was a Zealot leader who rose to power briefly in Jerusalem in the AD 66 year. He had been formerly "restrained" by the power of the more moderate high priests up to that point (Ananias ben Nebedeus in particular, with whom the Thessalonians were familiar). But after Menahem murdered Ananias, for a couple weeks, Menahem (who came from the Zealot family of Judas the Galilean insurrectionist of Acts 5:37) pushed himself forward by presenting himself as the King of Israel in the temple itself, dressed in King Herod's regalia, stolen from Masada. The very "brightness of his coming" into power with Menahem's sudden meteoric rise was his own undoing. Menahem's rival Zealot leader, (Eleazar, son of the "restrainer", Ananias - whom Menahem had murdered and "taken out of the way" to gain the upper hand) soon rose up against Menahem and slew him and all his followers in Jerusalem in AD 66.

Matt 24:21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
"""" This produced horrific conditions of both spiritual and physical disasters that never happened either before or since then."""
..
Nuclear bombing of Japan wasn't as bad ? no, nor ever shall be.
Hitler killing of Jews wasn't as bad ? no, nor ever shall be.
A future nuclear holocaust won't be as bad ? no, nor ever shall be.
Armageddon won't be as bad ? no, nor ever shall be.