Christ Jesus is God: BIBLICAL PROOF, JUST FOLLOW THE ROCK!

[Titus]

The most fundamental definition of a Christian is, one who believes Jesus is God. But this belief alone cannot make one a Christian, John 12:42.
Every known Christian in the first century had this belief.
Therefore anyone who denies Jesus' divinity can only be pretending to be a christian.

The Bible gives us multiple ways to prove that Jesus is God.
One way is to use a old and new testament concordance... look up every verse that uses the word ROCK.

Here are a few to consider,

1Corinthians 10:1-4,
- Moreover brethren I do not want you to be unaware that our Fathers were under the cloud all passed through the sea,
all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
all ate the same spiritual food,
all drank the same spiritual drink
For they drank of that spiritual ROCK and that ROCK was Christ.

It would be foolish to deny that Jesus Christ is not referred to as the ROCK.
Now that the scriptures have established that Jesus is the Rock, let's take this knowledge and apply it to other scriptures.

2Samuel 22:32,
-For who is God, except the Lord, and who is a Rock, except our God

2Samuel 22:2-3,
- and David said: The Lord is my  Rock and my fortress and my deliverer; The  God of my strength, in whom I will trust; my shield and the horn of my salvation my stronghold and my refuge my  Savior, You save me from violence.

1Samuel 2:2,
- No one is holy like our Lord, for there is none beside You,
nor is there any Rock like our God.

Deuteronomy 32:18,
- Of the  Rock who begot you, you are unmindful,
and have forgotten the God who fathered you.

Psalm 18:2,
- The Lord is my  Rock and my fortress and my deliverer; my  God my strength in whom I will trust...

Psalm 18:31,
- For who is  God except the Lord,
and who is a  Rock, except our  God

Psalm 18:46,
- The Lord lives
Blessed be my Rock
Let the  God of my salvation be exalted

Psalm 89:26,
- he shall cry to Me, You are my Father, My  God and the  Rock of my salvation

It is also beneficial to do a word search on stone and cornerstone.

Psalm 118:22,
- The stone which the builders rejected
has become the chief cornerstone.

Acts 4:10-12,
- let it be known to you all and to all people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth whom you crucified...
- This is the  stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief  cornerstone
- nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

Conclusion: There are those who claim to be christian yet deny the deity of our Lord God who is our Rock our Savior.
For the JW that have been indoctrinated into this lie.

You must heed the word of The Rock lest you die without hope!

John 8:24,
- Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.

 

[Jack]

Excellent!

 

[Titus]

Excellent!

Thankyou

 

[face2face]

Thankyou

I believe peoples appetite to discuss the Godhead has been severely diminished since the reinforcement of forum rules.

 

[tigger 2]

I wonder if I replied with an answer to this thread if I wouldn't be hammered by the rulemasters here..

 

[Titus]

I wonder if I replied with an answer to this thread if I wouldn't be hammered by the rulemasters here..

Well, if it is something you believe God would want you to express, I'd serve God not man.

 

[Gottservant]

[...]

You must heed the word of The Rock lest you die without hope!

[...]

The Lord is not merely "God", but "God 'crucified'"

In other words, He speaks as (God), remains as (God) and becomes a "strong" (God).

This is what is meant when it is said "God will be with you (within you)"

 

[Titus]

The Lord is not merely "God", but "God 'crucified'"

In other words, He speaks as (God), remains as (God) and becomes a "strong" (God).

This is what is meant when it is said "God will be with you (within you)"

If anyone deny that Jesus is the only living true God that has existed for all eternity, they will be lost.
This is what Jesus is preaching in John 8:24.

It was Jesus that was with Gods people back long ago before He was manifested in the flesh.

1Corinthians 10:1-4,
- Moreover brethren I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud all passed through the sea
all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea
all ate the same spiritual food
and all drank the same spiritual drink
For they drank of that spiritual ROCK that followed them and that ROCK was Christ

We learn from Paul that Jesus Christ was with the old Israelites.
This proves Jesus existed before He became flesh(Man)

1Timothy 3:16,
- and without controversy great is the mystery of godliness
God was manifested in the flesh
Justified in the Spirit
Seen by angels
Preached among the gentiles
Believed on in the world
Received up in glory.

 

[Gottservant]

If anyone deny that Jesus is the only living true God that has existed for all eternity, they will be lost.
This is what Jesus is preaching in John 8:24.

It was Jesus that was with Gods people back long ago before He was manifested in the flesh.

1Corinthians 10:1-4,
- Moreover brethren I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud all passed through the sea
all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea
all ate the same spiritual food
and all drank the same spiritual drink
For they drank of that spiritual ROCK that followed them and that ROCK was Christ

We learn from Paul that Jesus Christ was with the old Israelites.
This proves Jesus existed before He became flesh(Man)

1Timothy 3:16,
- and without controversy great is the mystery of godliness
God was manifested in the flesh
Justified in the Spirit
Seen by angels
Preached among the gentiles
Believed on in the world
Received up in glory.

I agree, denial is a problem, but it is a problem for the Devil not me.

Jesus was God, yes, but He was God Crucified.

Everywhere you think Jesus, think "Crucified?"

 

[Stumpmaster]

I agree, denial is a problem, but it is a problem for the Devil not me.

Jesus was God, yes, but He was God Crucified.

Everywhere you think Jesus, think "Crucified?"

Food for thought . . .

Mat 27:45-46 From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. (46) About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

 

[face2face]

The Lord is not merely "God", but "God 'crucified'"

In other words, He speaks as (God), remains as (God) and becomes a "strong" (God).

This is what is meant when it is said "God will be with you (within you)"

Everything about that post is wrong; reads wrong, just wrong.

 

[face2face]

I wonder if I replied with an answer to this thread if I wouldn't be hammered by the rulemasters here..

I served my time in the wilderness and found it to be enlightening.

 

[tigger 2]

If anyone deny that Jesus is the only living true God that has existed for all eternity, they will be lost.
This is what Jesus is preaching in John 8:24.

It was Jesus that was with Gods people back long ago before He was manifested in the flesh.

1Corinthians 10:1-4,
- Moreover brethren I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud all passed through the sea
all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea
all ate the same spiritual food
and all drank the same spiritual drink
For they drank of that spiritual ROCK that followed them and that ROCK was Christ

We learn from Paul that Jesus Christ was with the old Israelites.
This proves Jesus existed before He became flesh(Man)

1Timothy 3:16,
- and without controversy great is the mystery of godliness
God was manifested in the flesh
Justified in the Spirit
Seen by angels
Preached among the gentiles
Believed on in the world
Received up in glory.

................................................
1 Tim. 3:16 (“God [?] was manifest in the flesh”)

As this is translated in the KJV it makes Paul say that Jesus is God “manifest in the flesh.”

Although the KJV translates 1 Tim. 3:16 with “God” as above, nearly all other translations today use a word which refers, not to God, but to Jesus: “he” (NIV; RSV; NRSV; JB; NJB; REB; NAB [‘70]; AT; GNB; CBW; and Beck’s translation), “he who” (ASV; NASB; NEB; MLB; BBE; Phillips; and Moffatt), “who,” or “which.” Even the equally old Douay version has “which was manifested in the flesh.” All the very best modern NT texts by trinitarian scholars (including Westcott and Hort, Nestle, and the text by the United Bible Societies) have the NT Greek word ὃς (“who”) here instead of θεὸς (“God”). Why do the very best trinitarian scholars support this NON-trinitarian translation of 1 Tim. 3:16?

Noted Bible scholar Dr. Frederick C. Grant writes:

“A capital example [of NT manuscript changes] is found in 1 Timothy 3:16, where ‘OS’ (OC or ὃς, ‘who’) was later taken for theta sigma with a bar above, which stood for theos (θεὸς, ‘god’). Since the new reading suited …. the orthodox doctrine of the church [trinitarian, at this later date], it got into many of the later manuscripts ….” – p. 656, Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 3, 1957 ed. (This same statement by Dr. Grant was still to be found in the latest Encyclopedia Americana that I examined – the 1990 ed., pp. 696-698, vol. 3.)

A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament by the United Bible Societies (1971 ed.) tells why the trinitarian UBS Committee chose ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] as the original reading in their NT text for this verse:

“it is supported by the earliest and best uncials.” And, “Thus, no uncial (in the first hand [by the ORIGINAL writer]) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports θεὸς [“God”]; all ancient versions presuppose ὃς [or OC, “who” - masc.] or ὅ [“which” - neut.]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century [ca. 370 A.D.] testifies to the reading θεὸς. The reading θεὸς arose either (a) accidentally, through the misreading of OC as ΘC, or (b) deliberately....” - p. 641.

In actuality it appears to be a combination of both (with the emphasis on the latter). You see, the word ὃς was written in the most ancient manuscripts as OC (“C” being a common form for the ancient Greek letter “S” at that time). Most often at this time the word for God (θεὸς) was written in abbreviated form as ΘC. However, to show that it was an abbreviated form, a straight line, or bar, was always drawn above ΘC. So no copyist should have mistaken ὃς (or OC) for ΘC, in spite of their similarities, simply because of the prominent bar which appeared over the one and not over the other.

What may have happened was discovered by John J. Wetstein in 1714. As he was carefully examining one of the oldest NT manuscripts then known (the Alexandrine Manuscript in London) he noticed at 1 Tim. 3:16 that the word originally written there was OC but that a horizontal stroke from one of the words written on the other side of the manuscript showed through very faintly in the middle of the O. This still would not qualify as an abbreviation for θεὸς, of course, but Wetstein discovered that some person at a much later date and in a different style from the original writer had deliberately added a bar above the original word! Anyone copying from this manuscript after it had been deliberately changed would be likely to incorporate the counterfeit ΘC [with bar above it] into his new copy (especially since it reflected his own trinitarian views)!

Of course, since Wetstein’s day many more ancient NT manuscripts have been discovered and none of them before the eighth century A.D. have been found with ΘC (“God”) at this verse!

Trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris also concludes:

“The strength of the external evidence favoring OC [‘who’], along with considerations of transcriptional and intrinsic probability, have prompted textual critics virtually unanimously to regard OC as the original text, a judgment reflected in NA(26) [Nestle-Aland text] and UBS (1,2,3) [United Bible Societies text] (with a ‘B’ rating) [also the Westcott & Hort text]. Accordingly, 1 Tim 3:16 is not an instance of the Christological [‘Jesus is God’] use of θεὸς.” - Jesus as God, p. 268, Baker Book House, 1992.

And very trinitarian (Southern Baptist) NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson wrote about this scripture:

“He who (hos [or OC in the original text]). The correct text, not theos (God) the reading of the Textus Receptus ... nor ho (neuter relative [pronoun]), agreeing with [the neuter] musterion [‘mystery’] the reading of Western documents.” - p. 577, Vol. 4, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Broadman Press.

And even hyper-trinitarian NT Greek scholar, Daniel B. Wallace uses the relative pronoun ὃς (‘who’) in this scripture and tells us:

“The textual variant θεὸς [‘god’] in the place of ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] has been adamantly defended by some scholars, particularly those of the ‘majority text’ school. Not only is such a reading poorly attested, but the syntactical argument that ‘mystery’ (μυστήριον) being a neuter noun, cannot be followed by the masculine pronoun (ὃς) is entirely without weight. As attractive theologically [for trinitarians, of course] as the reading θεὸς may be, it is spurious. To reject it is not to deny the deity of Christ, of course; it is just to deny any explicit reference in this text.” [italicized emphasis is by Wallace]. - pp. 341-342, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, 1996.

The correct rendering of 1 Tim. 3:16, then, is: “He who was revealed in the flesh ….” - NASB. Cf. ASV; RSV; NRSV; NAB; JB; NJB; NIV; NEB; REB; ESV; Douay-Rheims; TEV; CEV; BBE; NLV; God’s Word; New Century Version; Holman NT; ISV NT; Lexham English Bible; The Message; Weymouth; Moffatt; etc.

 

[APAK]

Everything about that post is wrong; reads wrong, just wrong.

I wonder if I should attempt to explain the errors in his OP starting from its beginning?.. in 1 Corinth 10, with Paul using the wandering Israelites in comparison to the Corinthians...with the type of Christ....as spiritual water for 'life' in the NT and an actual water supply of a rock or rocks the Israelites drank for sustainment of their physical life.

 

[Stumpmaster]

I wonder if I should attempt to explain the errors in his OP starting from its beginning?.. in 1 Corinth 10, with Paul using the wandering Israelites in comparison to the Corinthians...with the type of Christ....as spiritual water for 'life' in the NT and an actual water supply of a rock or rocks the Israelites drank for sustainment of their physical life.

What's to explain?

 

[face2face]

I wonder if I should attempt to explain the errors in his OP starting from its beginning?.. in 1 Corinth 10, with Paul using the wandering Israelites in comparison to the Corinthians...with the type of Christ....as spiritual water for 'life' in the NT and an actual water supply of a rock or rocks the Israelites drank for sustainment of their physical life.

I think you already have lol

 

[Jack]

John 20 Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God"!

Amen Thomas!

 

[tigger 2]

John 20 Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God"!

Amen Thomas!

........................................

MYGOD

(From the RDB Files) MYGOD John 20:28 - “My God” John 20:19 - “On the evening of that day [when the resurrected Jesus was first seen], ...

examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com

KURIE - All NT Uses of "Lord" in Address

All uses of the vocative (noun of address) KURIE To be used with the “My God” study of John 20:28 http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot...

examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com

 

[Jack]

........................................

MYGOD

(From the RDB Files) MYGOD John 20:28 - “My God” John 20:19 - “On the evening of that day [when the resurrected Jesus was first seen], ...

examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com

KURIE - All NT Uses of "Lord" in Address

All uses of the vocative (noun of address) KURIE To be used with the “My God” study of John 20:28 http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot...

examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com

Thomas knew Jesus.

 

[Titus]

................................................
1 Tim. 3:16 (“God [?] was manifest in the flesh”)

As this is translated in the KJV it makes Paul say that Jesus is God “manifest in the flesh.”

Although the KJV translates 1 Tim. 3:16 with “God” as above, nearly all other translations today use a word which refers, not to God, but to Jesus: “he” (NIV; RSV; NRSV; JB; NJB; REB; NAB [‘70]; AT; GNB; CBW; and Beck’s translation), “he who” (ASV; NASB; NEB; MLB; BBE; Phillips; and Moffatt), “who,” or “which.” Even the equally old Douay version has “which was manifested in the flesh.” All the very best modern NT texts by trinitarian scholars (including Westcott and Hort, Nestle, and the text by the United Bible Societies) have the NT Greek word ὃς (“who”) here instead of θεὸς (“God”). Why do the very best trinitarian scholars support this NON-trinitarian translation of 1 Tim. 3:16?

Noted Bible scholar Dr. Frederick C. Grant writes:

“A capital example [of NT manuscript changes] is found in 1 Timothy 3:16, where ‘OS’ (OC or ὃς, ‘who’) was later taken for theta sigma with a bar above, which stood for theos (θεὸς, ‘god’). Since the new reading suited …. the orthodox doctrine of the church [trinitarian, at this later date], it got into many of the later manuscripts ….” – p. 656, Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 3, 1957 ed. (This same statement by Dr. Grant was still to be found in the latest Encyclopedia Americana that I examined – the 1990 ed., pp. 696-698, vol. 3.)

A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament by the United Bible Societies (1971 ed.) tells why the trinitarian UBS Committee chose ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] as the original reading in their NT text for this verse:

“it is supported by the earliest and best uncials.” And, “Thus, no uncial (in the first hand [by the ORIGINAL writer]) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports θεὸς [“God”]; all ancient versions presuppose ὃς [or OC, “who” - masc.] or ὅ [“which” - neut.]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century [ca. 370 A.D.] testifies to the reading θεὸς. The reading θεὸς arose either (a) accidentally, through the misreading of OC as ΘC, or (b) deliberately....” - p. 641.

In actuality it appears to be a combination of both (with the emphasis on the latter). You see, the word ὃς was written in the most ancient manuscripts as OC (“C” being a common form for the ancient Greek letter “S” at that time). Most often at this time the word for God (θεὸς) was written in abbreviated form as ΘC. However, to show that it was an abbreviated form, a straight line, or bar, was always drawn above ΘC. So no copyist should have mistaken ὃς (or OC) for ΘC, in spite of their similarities, simply because of the prominent bar which appeared over the one and not over the other.

What may have happened was discovered by John J. Wetstein in 1714. As he was carefully examining one of the oldest NT manuscripts then known (the Alexandrine Manuscript in London) he noticed at 1 Tim. 3:16 that the word originally written there was OC but that a horizontal stroke from one of the words written on the other side of the manuscript showed through very faintly in the middle of the O. This still would not qualify as an abbreviation for θεὸς, of course, but Wetstein discovered that some person at a much later date and in a different style from the original writer had deliberately added a bar above the original word! Anyone copying from this manuscript after it had been deliberately changed would be likely to incorporate the counterfeit ΘC [with bar above it] into his new copy (especially since it reflected his own trinitarian views)!

Of course, since Wetstein’s day many more ancient NT manuscripts have been discovered and none of them before the eighth century A.D. have been found with ΘC (“God”) at this verse!

Trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris also concludes:

“The strength of the external evidence favoring OC [‘who’], along with considerations of transcriptional and intrinsic probability, have prompted textual critics virtually unanimously to regard OC as the original text, a judgment reflected in NA(26) [Nestle-Aland text] and UBS (1,2,3) [United Bible Societies text] (with a ‘B’ rating) [also the Westcott & Hort text]. Accordingly, 1 Tim 3:16 is not an instance of the Christological [‘Jesus is God’] use of θεὸς.” - Jesus as God, p. 268, Baker Book House, 1992.

And very trinitarian (Southern Baptist) NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson wrote about this scripture:

“He who (hos [or OC in the original text]). The correct text, not theos (God) the reading of the Textus Receptus ... nor ho (neuter relative [pronoun]), agreeing with [the neuter] musterion [‘mystery’] the reading of Western documents.” - p. 577, Vol. 4, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Broadman Press.

And even hyper-trinitarian NT Greek scholar, Daniel B. Wallace uses the relative pronoun ὃς (‘who’) in this scripture and tells us:

“The textual variant θεὸς [‘god’] in the place of ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] has been adamantly defended by some scholars, particularly those of the ‘majority text’ school. Not only is such a reading poorly attested, but the syntactical argument that ‘mystery’ (μυστήριον) being a neuter noun, cannot be followed by the masculine pronoun (ὃς) is entirely without weight. As attractive theologically [for trinitarians, of course] as the reading θεὸς may be, it is spurious. To reject it is not to deny the deity of Christ, of course; it is just to deny any explicit reference in this text.” [italicized emphasis is by Wallace]. - pp. 341-342, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, 1996.

The correct rendering of 1 Tim. 3:16, then, is: “He who was revealed in the flesh ….” - NASB. Cf. ASV; RSV; NRSV; NAB; JB; NJB; NIV; NEB; REB; ESV; Douay-Rheims; TEV; CEV; BBE; NLV; God’s Word; New Century Version; Holman NT; ISV NT; Lexham English Bible; The Message; Weymouth; Moffatt; etc.

1Timothy 3:16
You know the scriptures dont contradict dont you?
Since the Rock is clearly God and that Rock is Christ,
To say 1Timothy 3:16 is not God. This position contradicts all those scriptures on the Rock which is God which is Jesus Christ.
The Bible is in perfect harmony.
Therefore you must disprove that the Rock is God and the Rock is Christ for your interpretation of 1Timothy 3:16 to be in harmony with the rest of the Scriptures.

Think you can accomplish this challenge?
I'm all ears!