Christ-like.

[dragonfly]

Hi veteran,

Following our Lord Jesus and trying to do the things He did is still not the idea I'm talking about regarding Gnosticism, which assumes the titles of Christ upon oneself in the sense of being one's own 'Christ'.

Does this, in a convoluted way, lead to people consulting themselves about the divine will, rather than praying to God who is 'other' than themselves?

 

[veteran]

Hi veteran,



Does this, in a convoluted way, lead to people consulting themselves about the divine will, rather than praying to God who is 'other' than themselves?

It leads to the eventual denial of Christ's Sacrifice upon the cross.

Consider who you could ask if Christianity is only one path of many to God, with those answering yes.

 

[dragonfly]

It leads to the eventual denial of Christ's Sacrifice upon the cross.

Consider who you could ask if Christianity is only one path of many to God, with those answering yes.

Okay. I need to read more about gnosticism to really divide it from other ways to retain one's status as god in one's own life. It seems the rebellion of Adam can be dressed up in many ways - from secularism to high religion.

 

[veteran]

Okay. I need to read more about gnosticism to really divide it from other ways to retain one's status as god in one's own life. It seems the rebellion of Adam can be dressed up in many ways - from secularism to high religion.

Shouldn't just stop at Adam though, because Satan himself is the first to covet God's Throne for himself. That's where all... later methods of it originate from. With his temptation as "that old serpent" against Adam and Eve, that's the sin he was prompting even them with.

Try looking up the terms: "Christ Consciousness", "Cosmic Consciousness", etc.

 

[Netchaplain]

It would stand to reason if we no longer possessed our old nature we would no longer possess sin and therefore we would no longer sin. To reason that we no longer sin conflicts with the whole of Scripture, esp. with Paul's entire discourse of Romans 7 which clearly evidences the co-existence, but not the co-union, of our sinful nature and the new nature, by which--through the Spirit, we are partakers of the "divine nature".

I'm not sure where posters in this thread are concerning the concept of being sinless or if any are promulgating it but I believe a misunderstanding with this issue would leave one quite deficient in many spiritual growth teachings, considering it's one of the primary rudiments in biblical doctrine.

I state this out of brotherly-love so if it appears to be accusational, you are mistaken and please accept my apology!

 

[dragonfly]

Hi NetChaplain,

Personally, I find much fault with the doctrine of total depravity, because that phrase is unscriptural, and although no-one here mentions it 'out loud' as it were, it most definitely has influenced the thinking of many - to the point where that when victory over sin is declared, their eyes effectively glaze over. Somehow, we have to move back on to what scripture actually claims for the New Covenant, and just stay there until we really get it

If the discussion could be restricted to biblical terms and the way the Bible itself defines those terms, everyone would be much clearer on the difference between the Old and the New Covenants.

 

[Netchaplain]

Hi Dragonfly! The doctrine of "Total Depravity" can be misunderstood if it isn't realized that it refers to our old nature. Its design intends that our old nature is incorrigible because "it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom 8:7), which obviously is also the reason for the new nature. The exhortation from this dual co-existence of natures is that the Holy Spirit causes us to live more by the new nature than the old: "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would" (Gal 5:17).

The new nature should always be remembered when discussing the old nature, just as Heaven should be remembered when discussing Hell to maintain a balanced position.

 

[Prentis]

It would stand to reason if we no longer possessed our old nature we would no longer possess sin and therefore we would no longer sin. To reason that we no longer sin conflicts with the whole of Scripture, esp. with Paul's entire discourse of Romans 7 which clearly evidences the co-existence, but not the co-union, of our sinful nature and the new nature, by which--through the Spirit, we are partakers of the "divine nature".

I'm not sure where posters in this thread are concerning the concept of being sinless or if any are promulgating it but I believe a misunderstanding with this issue would leave one quite deficient in many spiritual growth teachings, considering it's one of the primary rudiments in biblical doctrine.

I state this out of brotherly-love so if it appears to be accusational, you are mistaken and please accept my apology!

No offense taken, and were I to misunderstand anything you say, forgive me I pray, and let me know. :)

See, the issue is that people use Romans 7 against the proclamation of Paul in Romans 8 that through Christ he is freed. Romans 8 is the solution to the dilemma that Paul sets forth in Romans 7. Where Paul uses Romans 7 to rouse up our consciences and to bring us to cry out ourselves 'who shall free me?' so that when he lays out Romans 8, we are already looking for deliverance, and there find the answer, much of modern Christianity uses Romans 7 to explain the state we are in after claiming to have experienced Romans 8. Men have turned it upside down!

The Bible proclaims that if we know him, we will not sin.

It is true that the Israelites did not conquer the Land as soon as they were freed from Egypt, and this is not a condemnation... As it is not a condemnation that we be not yet conformed to Christ perfectly and knowing to rely on him perfectly when we are first converted. The issue arises when we do not believe in such an end, and do not continue in this direction, like the 10 unbelieving spies.

In Christ there is no sin, and so if we are in him, then we are free from sin. Otherwise we have two possibilities; (1) either Christ is a minister of sin, (2) or it is impossible to be entirely, fully and only in him, with all our heart.

 

[JohnnyB]

No offense taken, and were I to misunderstand anything you say, forgive me I pray, and let me know. :)

See, the issue is that people use Romans 7 against the proclamation of Paul in Romans 8 that through Christ he is freed. Romans 8 is the solution to the dilemma that Paul sets forth in Romans 7. Where Paul uses Romans 7 to rouse up our consciences and to bring us to cry out ourselves 'who shall free me?' so that when he lays out Romans 8, we are already looking for deliverance, and there find the answer, much of modern Christianity uses Romans 7 to explain the state we are in after claiming to have experienced Romans 8. Men have turned it upside down!

The Bible proclaims that if we know him, we will not sin.

It is true that the Israelites did not conquer the Land as soon as they were freed from Egypt, and this is not a condemnation... As it is not a condemnation that we be not yet conformed to Christ perfectly and knowing to rely on him perfectly when we are first converted. The issue arises when we do not believe in such an end, and do not continue in this direction, like the 10 unbelieving spies.

In Christ there is no sin, and so if we are in him, then we are free from sin. Otherwise we have two possibilities; (1) either Christ is a minister of sin, (2) or it is impossible to be entirely, fully and only in him, with all our heart.

Exactly!
Everyone stops at Romans 7 before they find the solution in Romans 8!
Good post!

 

[Netchaplain]

Thanks Prentise for letting me know you would inform me if my posts ever seem offensive because we should always share "the truth in love" (Eph 4:15).

The final position of the believer in this life is Rom 7 as Paul in his converted state concludes in v 25 that with his mind (new mind or, not old carnal mind) he lives to the will of God and with the flesh (old carnal mind or nature) to the will of sin. This is what is meant when Paul wrote that when he did wrong, it was no longer him (in his new self) doing it but the sin (in his old him) which resided in him was doing it (vs 17, 20). If this sounds like he's not taking the blame for his wrongs, it's a mistake, because he blames his old self.

Romans 8 discloses the victory we have within the Romans 7 conflict, by revealing the believer lives by the Spirit and not by our sinful nature (flesh). To live by the carnal nature means to remain under its constant influence and demands as being ruled by it. To live by the Spirit means to be within His constant influence which frees or guards us from the ruler-ship of sin.

It helps to know the spiritual growth teachings of Positional and Conditional truths. I've chosen this passage as an example: "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son" (Col 1:13). Positionally we are with Christ in Heaven (Eph 2:6) while Conditionally we are still here on Earth (Rom 8:23). Being knowledgeable of these truths allows us to realize that our condition (trials) cannot affect our position (vicariously victorious) but our position does affect (encouraged regardless) our condition.

Nowhere is it presented in Scripture that the believer is free from the presence of sin.The believer is free from sin's guilt but not from its presence and activities (Rom 7:14-25). We have "died to sin" (Rom 6:2) but it is not dead to us. It still effects us but no longer to the point of ruling us (Rom 6:12, 14). Our position concerning sin is the same as Christ's position (sinless;1 John 4:17) but our condition concerning sin will not be the same as His until the "redemption (resurrection) of our body", because "When He shall shall appear, then we shall be like Him (presence of sin eradicated), for we shall see Him as He is".

 

[jiggyfly]

Nowhere is it presented in Scripture that the believer is free from the presence of sin.The believer is free from sin's guilt but not from its presence and activities (Rom 7:14-25). We have "died to sin" (Rom 6:2) but it is not dead to us. It still effects us but no longer to the point of ruling us (Rom 6:12, 14). Our position concerning sin is the same as Christ's position (sinless;1 John 4:17) but our condition concerning sin will not be the same as His until the "redemption (resurrection) of our body", because "When He shall shall appear, then we shall be like Him (presence of sin eradicated), for we shall see Him as He is".

Excellent post NC. :)

 

[Axehead]

Paul concluded Romans 7 by saying, "So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin," vs 25. After all the self-effort to the flesh, the flesh was still under the law of sin. No amount of Law applied would change this fact, the flesh would always be flesh. One must go into chapter 8 to see God's remedy for the "wretched man".

Some may wonder (and do) if this is an autobiograpy of Paul before or after he met Jesus?

The answer is very simple, this chapter describes a man, saved or unsaved, who is looking to the Law to break the power of sin over him.

The Law is the way of self-effort and human will-power. Paul knew the reality of the flesh and faced squarely his failure to overcome the flesh through the Law.

Chapter 7 shows two laws working in man, the law of sin that rules in the flesh, and the law of God working in the mind of man. Now we come to chapter 8 where we have a new law which is the Law of the Spirit. This law springs forth from the life in Christ Jesus and comes forth as a governing principle for those joined to Christ (7:4). Grace is not without its restraint and power to deal with sin.

Chapter 7 deals with man and the Law. The word "I" predominates, being used 28 times, the word "law" occurs 20 times, but the Holy Spirit is not mentioned one time from verse 7 on. Here is the reason for the dismal failure of man. In chapter 8, the scene changes as one comes into the law of the Spirit and finds a power that governs the life in Christ Jesus.

The Law of the Spirit is the law of life found in Christ Jesus. Remember the power of sanctification comes from the life in Him.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Axehead

 

[Prentis]

Thanks Prentise for letting me know you would inform me if my posts ever seem offensive because we should always share "the truth in love" (Eph 4:15).

The final position of the believer in this life is Rom 7 as Paul in his converted state concludes in v 25 that with his mind (new mind or, not old carnal mind) he lives to the will of God and with the flesh (old carnal mind or nature) to the will of sin. This is what is meant when Paul wrote that when he did wrong, it was no longer him (in his new self) doing it but the sin (in his old him) which resided in him was doing it (vs 17, 20). If this sounds like he's not taking the blame for his wrongs, it's a mistake, because he blames his old self.

Romans 8 discloses the victory we have within the Romans 7 conflict, by revealing the believer lives by the Spirit and not by our sinful nature (flesh). To live by the carnal nature means to remain under its constant influence and demands as being ruled by it. To live by the Spirit means to be within His constant influence which frees or guards us from the ruler-ship of sin.

It helps to know the spiritual growth teachings of Positional and Conditional truths. I've chosen this passage as an example: "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son" (Col 1:13). Positionally we are with Christ in Heaven (Eph 2:6) while Conditionally we are still here on Earth (Rom 8:23). Being knowledgeable of these truths allows us to realize that our condition (trials) cannot affect our position (vicariously victorious) but our position does affect (encouraged regardless) our condition.

Nowhere is it presented in Scripture that the believer is free from the presence of sin.The believer is free from sin's guilt but not from its presence and activities (Rom 7:14-25). We have "died to sin" (Rom 6:2) but it is not dead to us. It still effects us but no longer to the point of ruling us (Rom 6:12, 14). Our position concerning sin is the same as Christ's position (sinless;1 John 4:17) but our condition concerning sin will not be the same as His until the "redemption (resurrection) of our body", because "When He shall shall appear, then we shall be like Him (presence of sin eradicated), for we shall see Him as He is".

This is not true. But a lie the enemy has sneaked into the church... God is merciful, but that is to the person, not to the sin. This sounds good to the ears... But it is not the truth communicated through the word.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Scriptures declares that in Christ there is no sin, and if we be in him, we are like him. This is what it is to attain the full stature of Christ... It is one thing to proclaim to have not yet attained, but uphold the standard, and whole different thing to deny the height of the standard.

One is the way of growth in faith, the other is the way of unbelief.

 

[Axehead]

Our new nature is Jesus' nature, Jesus is divine, we have a divine nature. We are partaking - participating - with Him to do His will, that is the coolest thing we get to do!

The verse you have in your signature attests to this, yet you are preaching something contrary to what you have chosen to place there.

We are now able to do greater things than He because it is Christ doing it through us, with His divine nature in us.

Very perceptive Johnny. I was wondering if someone was going to catch that inconsistency.

Axehead

Very perceptive Johnny. I was wondering if someone was going to catch that inconsistency.

Axehead

Chapter 7 deals with man and the Law. The word "I" predominates, being used 28 times, the word "law" occurs 20 times, but the Holy Spirit is not mentioned one time from verse 7 on. Here is the reason for the dismal failure of man. The lack of the HOLY SPIRIT.

In chapter 8, the scene changes as one comes into the law of the Spirit and finds a power that governs the life in Christ Jesus.

The Law of the Spirit is the law of life found in Christ Jesus. Remember the power of sanctification comes from the life in Him.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

eleutheroo - to free, set free. Literally, this word is used of slaves SET FREE.
This verb is in the aorist tense which speaks of point action, an event that HAS occurred. All dominion of sin and death is broken.

The "wretched man" has found power that has set him free from the bondage of the flesh (7:24).

This FREEDOM has come "through Christ Jesus our Lord," 7:25.

Another LAW has come by the Spirit. Here sin and death are each referred to as a law.

Conclusion: God as provided freedom from the law of sin and death by His Spirit.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ did that which the Law could not do (8:3).

The law was powerless to break the power of sin and it was weak because of the flesh. Literally, the law was weakened astheneo) by the flesh. The law was powerless to deal with sin in the flesh.

So, God made provision for Man's Deliverance from the FLESH.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

God sent His son in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh. Meaning, Jesus was man, He came in the likeness of the flesh of sin. In other words, He came in the flesh of man, but sin did not live in Him.

Christ through His flesh condemned sin in the flesh.

Condemn - katakrino - condemn to death

God has brought forth the condemnation of death from sin in the flesh. Christ in the flesh has brought forth the death of sin in the flesh. The tense of the verb is aorist which denotes it happened at a particular point in time past.

God's provision for sinful flesh was His own Son coming in the flesh. He judged sin to death so that we might be free. The result: We "do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit," vs. 4.

The Law of the Spirit of Life has brought the one "In Christ" into a new WALK, vs. 4.

Those who walk according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit," vs. 5.

One must set his mind on the things of the Spirit to walk according to the Spirit. The mind set on the flesh brings death, vs. 6. The mind set on the Spirit brings life and peace,vs. 6.

So, those who are walking according to the Spirit "are putting to death the deeds of the body. The deeds of the body refer to the acts of the flesh. By the Spirit the acts of the flesh are put to death.

If Christ is in you the body is dead because of sin, vs. 10. This describes the state of the sanctified who no longer lives according to the flesh. Sin is no longer operative in the body, but this does not mean that the flesh does not exist or cannot be revived.

It does mean the flesh is out of commission while one walks according to the Spirit. (Gal 5:16).

In Christ, the believer is under no obligation to walk according to the flesh, vs. 12.

The flesh holds no strings on the believer. He is free. Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death;

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:

The flesh is NOT able to come under the law of God.

Those in the flesh cannot please God.

Conclusion: The believer has a choice: If he sets his mind on the flesh the power of death begins to work; if he sets his mind on the things of the Spirit, the power of life in Christ becomes his. So in dealing with the flesh he has a choice. There are two different spheres in which he may walk. The sphere of the flesh is the sphere of the natural man; to walk in the sphere of the Spirit is to walk in life. Through the body of Christ one is now free to walk in the Spirit with no obligation whatsoever to the flesh.

Further in Romans 8:14-17, for the first time the word "son" is found in the book of Romans. Here we notice a progression of truth, having discovered the liberty of the Spirit to live free of the flesh, he now discovers that "those who are being led by the Spirit, these are the sons of God," vs. 14. Not only free from sin, but placed before God as sons. Hallelujah!!

The consciousness of sonship comes as one begins to walk in the Spirit.

One is to have his "mind set on the Spirit," and develop a consciousness of the Spirit of God who indwells him (vv. 9,11).

As he enters this walk he will come to know the rest which belongs to the sons of God.

Axehead

 

[Netchaplain]

Thanks Jiggyfly for your compliment, they are always encouraging!

Hi Axehead, like your name because the floating axe head (2 Kings 6:6) was a unique miracle! I'm aware of the concept you mentioned that some have varying opinions concerning Paul's spiritual state when he was writing Romans. I'm one who believes Paul is attributing chapter 7 to hi regenerate state. There's no advantage for him to attribute this great teaching of the "Dichotomy of the Christian" to his unregenerate state because of the impossibility of an unsaved individual to "serve the law of God" (v 25).

This dichotomy which Paul was knowledgeable about is evident in his epistle to the Galatians in chapter 5 verse 17, which reveals the opposition of the Spirit and the sinful nature within the Christian: "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

The "flesh" in this passage is not in reference to the physical body as some may believe but is attributed to the sinful nature, which is the carnal mind, otherwise it would conflict with, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit" (Rom 8:7). The "flesh" is also attributed to the sinful nature in Gal 5:19-21.


I do not think Romans 7 is referring to one “who is looking to the Law to break the power of sin” because Paul that the Law couldn’t address sin “because it was weak through the flesh” (Rom 8:3). Other support for this is: “as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse” (Gal 3:10); “the law is not of faith” (Gal 3:12); “whatsoever is not of faith is sin” (Rom 14:23). I also think the word law in “law of God” v 25 is not law as in Mosaic Law but law as in the moral will of God.

“Paul divides himself as it were into two parts, the mind, by which he means his inward man, his renewed self; and "the flesh," by which he designs his carnal I, that was sold under sin: and hereby he accounts for his serving, at different times, two different laws; "the law of God," written on his mind, and in the service of which he delighted as a regenerate man; "and the law of sin," to which he was sometimes carried captive: and it should be taken notice of, that he does not say "I have served," as referring to his past state of unregeneracy, but "I serve," as respecting his present state as a believer in Christ.” –John Gill

 

[Axehead]

Thanks Jiggyfly for your compliment, they are always encouraging!

Hi Axehead, like your name because the floating axe head (2 Kings 6:6) was a unique miracle! I'm aware of the concept you mentioned that some have varying opinions concerning Paul's spiritual state when he was writing Romans. I'm one who believes Paul is attributing chapter 7 to hi regenerate state. There's no advantage for him to attribute this great teaching of the "Dichotomy of the Christian" to his unregenerate state because of the impossibility of an unsaved individual to "serve the law of God" (v 25).

This dichotomy which Paul was knowledgeable about is evident in his epistle to the Galatians in chapter 5 verse 17, which reveals the opposition of the Spirit and the sinful nature within the Christian: "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

The "flesh" in this passage is not in reference to the physical body as some may believe but is attributed to the sinful nature, which is the carnal mind, otherwise it would conflict with, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit" (Rom 8:7). The "flesh" is also attributed to the sinful nature in Gal 5:19-21.


I do not think Romans 7 is referring to one “who is looking to the Law to break the power of sin” because Paul that the Law couldn’t address sin “because it was weak through the flesh” (Rom 8:3). Other support for this is: “as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse” (Gal 3:10); “the law is not of faith” (Gal 3:12); “whatsoever is not of faith is sin” (Rom 14:23). I also think the word law in “law of God” v 25 is not law as in Mosaic Law but law as in the moral will of God.

“Paul divides himself as it were into two parts, the mind, by which he means his inward man, his renewed self; and "the flesh," by which he designs his carnal I, that was sold under sin: and hereby he accounts for his serving, at different times, two different laws; "the law of God," written on his mind, and in the service of which he delighted as a regenerate man; "and the law of sin," to which he was sometimes carried captive: and it should be taken notice of, that he does not say "I have served," as referring to his past state of unregeneracy, but "I serve," as respecting his present state as a believer in Christ.” –John Gill

Thanks Jiggyfly for your compliment, they are always encouraging!

Hi Axehead, like your name because the floating axe head (2 Kings 6:6) was a unique miracle! I'm aware of the concept you mentioned that some have varying opinions concerning Paul's spiritual state when he was writing Romans. I'm one who believes Paul is attributing chapter 7 to hi regenerate state. There's no advantage for him to attribute this great teaching of the "Dichotomy of the Christian" to his unregenerate state because of the impossibility of an unsaved individual to "serve the law of God" (v 25).

Also, impossibility of the Christian who "walks in the flesh" to serve God, acceptably.

This dichotomy which Paul was knowledgeable about is evident in his epistle to the Galatians in chapter 5 verse 17, which reveals the opposition of the Spirit and the sinful nature within the Christian: "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

Actually, there is every advantage for Paul to tell Christians that they can still choose to walk in the flesh and they should not walk in the flesh now that they are Christians.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

The "flesh" in this passage is not in reference to the physical body as some may believe but is attributed to the sinful nature, which is the carnal mind, otherwise it would conflict with, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit" (Rom 8:7). The "flesh" is also attributed to the sinful nature in Gal 5:19-21.

Do disagreement there, but what happened to "the body of sin", once we were born of the Spirit?


Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Freed from the controlling influence and governance of sin). We no longer HAVE TO SIN.)

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. (He tells us this because it is now possible through the Holy Spirit, otherwise it would be an unfair command).

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

I do not think Romans 7 is referring to one “who is looking to the Law to break the power of sin” because Paul that the Law couldn’t address sin “because it was weak through the flesh” (Rom 8:3). Other support for this is: “as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse” (Gal 3:10); “the law is not of faith” (Gal 3:12); “whatsoever is not of faith is sin” (Rom 14:23). I also think the word law in “law of God” v 25 is not law as in Mosaic Law but law as in the moral will of God.

Law is any LAW that a person lives by to please God and attain their own righteousness apart from the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

“Paul divides himself as it were into two parts, the mind, by which he means his inward man, his renewed self; and "the flesh," by which he designs his carnal I, that was sold under sin: and hereby he accounts for his serving, at different times, two different laws; "the law of God," written on his mind, and in the service of which he delighted as a regenerate man; "and the law of sin," to which he was sometimes carried captive: and it should be taken notice of, that he does not say "I have served," as referring to his past state of unregeneracy, but "I serve," as respecting his present state as a believer in Christ.” –John Gill

Actually, he delighted in the Law as an unregenerate man and many do just that. They don't have the advantage of the Holy Spirit. In Galatians, Paul is addressing Christians that are putting themselves back under the LAW. In Romans, (and you need to read Romans 6, because in Romans 7, Paul is digressing or musing upon his life without God.

He was not IN CHRIST.

This is so completely and diametrically different from Romans 8.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This is a man that is no longer WRETCHED and HOPELESS. He now had life and peace (verse 6). No mention of LIFE and PEACE in Romans 7. No mention of "SONSHIP" in Romans 7.

In Romans 7:24 Paul says, "who shall deliver me from the body of this death (sin)?" In Roman 8:10, Paul states what will deliver him and DID DELIVER HIM. "IF CHRIST BE IN YOU, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness". CHRIST was not in PAUL in Romans 7.


Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (If you are not led by the Spirit of God you are not a SON and there was no mention of being led by the Spirit of God in Romans 7.)

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. (We no longer cry O wretched man that I am! We cry Abba, Father!!)

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (What is wretched about being a child of God and being set free from sin?)

Thanks for taking the time to write, but my experience correlates with Romans 6, 7 and 8 just the way it is laid out and I respectfully disagree with John Gill. I like some of his other commentaries very much, though.

Axehead

 

[Netchaplain]

Axehead, I also appreciate the correspondence of word-loving Christians!

By "the body of sin" is meant sin itself which consists as a body does of various members and these members are listed in Colossians 3:5. The physical human body is pure, just as "All things indeed are pure" (Rom 14:20). The sin does not come from body but from the spirit. Within itself a thing is pure, it's the nature of the spirit which can be impure because "unto them that are defiled and unbelieving[is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled." (1 Tim 1:15).

 

[whitestone]

That may be the idea you intend, but we still must be careful to not misassign a title that creates confusion against our relationship with Christ Jesus as His followers, as God's children. The Gnostic doctrine of actually trying to assume the position of 'a Christ' has been around a long time, and it was allied with paganism then, and still is today.

The only folk in danger of gnostic behavior today would specifically be those who do not literally contain the Holy Spirit of our Risen and Glorified Lord Jesus Christ come in their flesh right now and here today.

Which does not include any of my brethren...

One way to tell a brother is how much he hates sin and attempts to help others see it for what it is and how to recognize the danger signals, like what Paul and NT writers speak of. Those are true brothers. They are like this;

(Jud 1:23) and some save, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

They are just trying to help :) The carnal mind is a tricky subtile deceptive serpent, most don't know the wiles of the devil. It is the 'self', trying to deceive meaning away from the Word, and causes a sinner to see sin differently even in scripture, than how a Saint can see it as revealed by Christ's Holy Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

When Joshua was to conquer the Promised Land, they were not to make agreements with the original inhabitant in the land. He was to utterly destroy them.

We must die! Our original inhabitant of this land we Are. We must utterly die to ourselves (beginning at baptism), So that the Promised Firstborn Son of God can move into us, the promised land purchased possession! :)

That is us!

When we destroy out the non-beliver firstborn of the flesh, (i.e "old man, devil,self, etc) through the crucifixion of Christ, then the Risen from the dead Firstborn Son of God can move in!
This is a New Beginning, a New Creation as spoken by the prophets and the apostles. An incredible story of Love, as a marriage, two becoming One and a Son being born from within us, all called the Kingdom of God.

In the middle of it all, Sin is wiped out. It is Replaced with Righteousness.
As a result, never again do we experience guilt and shame, for sin is removed!
We now Love and respond to righteousness.
Because it is Christ in us, Living, moving breathing, having His Being out through our Words and Deeds.
Those who are in this relationship, know and understand these things, because they experience this kind of close personal intimate relationship with Jesus that goes way beyond "words".

Such men know who they are, though others don't know them and even spite them. But they are the Sons of God. They preach righteousness of the Kingdom of God by the Power and Grace of Christ Alive in us.

An awesome most incredible message. A message of hope for those who hate sin and committing sin. There is hope. There is deliverance.
Righteousness is the Kingdom of God. Look it up :) It is also joy and peace. It is in His Holy Spirit. (Rom 14:17)

There is an opposite message out there, yes. They will "rob" you of your heritage if believed. False teachers. But it is so very totally opposite to the plain scriptures. You can tell, because if you read what the verse says before reading what they "say" it means, you will know to go with what you first thought the verse said :)
It works every time hehe. God will never deceive you when you read His Word.
It is only when we believe something that some man says "what it means" that we can become deceived.

Christ in us, our hope of Glory.
Not of ourselves;

(2Co 4:7) But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the exceeding greatness of the power may be of God, and not from ourselves;

Let the Saints help :)

Peace

 

[Axehead]

Axehead, I also appreciate the correspondence of word-loving Christians!

By "the body of sin" is meant sin itself which consists as a body does of various members and these members are listed in Colossians 3:5. The physical human body is pure, just as "All things indeed are pure" (Rom 14:20). The sin does not come from body but from the spirit. Within itself a thing is pure, it's the nature of the spirit which can be impure because "unto them that are defiled and unbelieving[is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled." (1 Tim 1:15).

Hi NetChaplain,

The sin does not come from body but from the spirit.

Taking your thoughts to their ultimate conclusion what "spirit" would sin come from?

Blessings,
Axehead

 

[Netchaplain]

It's true Prentise that "God is merciful, but that is to the person, not to the sin." Sin is always in judgement and therefore God does not forgive sin but forgives the Christian just as you've stated. Rom 6:6 writes that "our old man is crucified with Him". The idea of crucifixion is not to immediately kill the subject, but only render him to a detained position until he is dead. This is the model of the ongoing ("is crucified"; not has been crucified, but remains on the cross, and that "daily"--Luke 9:23) crucifixion of our sinful nature, it is still alive enough to affect us but too weak to rule us and it will eventually be eradicated.

Christ is the "only begotten of the Father", but we are not. Christ is sovereign, but we are not. He is Deity, but we are not and He is sinless, but we are not.

The issue is, regardless of our understanding concerning the continued possession of a sinful nature or the absence of it, the believer is free from the guilt of it. To be inaccurate in our understanding of this issue will not affect the possession of our salvation, but will affect the growth of it.

To claim we are without sin may intend a good motive but is a denial of self deception (1 John 1:8). The only way to be sinless, at anytime, is to never have sinned, because after the first sin, one is guilty of all sin (James 2:10) and only One can claim He has never sinned (1 John 1:10). This is also why "as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse" (Gal 3:10), because man wasn't intended to be able to kept the Law perfectly, to show it required Another that could. The Law was not intended to make one right because only Christ could make this possible. The Law was to reveal man is guilty of sin, because "the strength of sin is the Law" (1 Cor 15:56).

"Taking your thoughts to their ultimate conclusion what "spirit" would sin come from?" Man, Satan, etc.

The issue is that sin cannot come from things because it requires volition of choice to be accountable, e.g., "If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both Me and My Father" (John 15:24). "Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth" (John 9:41).