Christ-like.

[Xian Pugilist]

Ok, so you think Paul is a Gnostic and his works not part of the Canon. We therefore have a fundamental, insurmountable difference in beliefs.

I just find that a very self serving belief that belittles God to imply HE can't get published what HE wanted to get published. So much for Omnipotence, apparently it would mean you were a Gnostic God... or summ'n.

Those statements in bold pretty much rest my case of how Gnostic doctrine has been creeping into Christ's Church through history.

ANY association of any believer on Christ ever... becoming "as perfect as Christ" is... what Gnosticism is about.

Nor do I have to just stop with the ideas of 1st and 2nd century Gnosticism with that kind of reference, because their ideas originated from pagan ideas many centuries earlier! It all goes back to that old serpent's tempting in God's Garden, tempting with the idea that one can become their own God.

 

[veteran]

Ok, so you think Paul is a Gnostic and his works not part of the Canon. We therefore have a fundamental, insurmountable difference in beliefs.

No, I think it's YOU that is leaning towards ideas of Gnosticism.

ANY supposition that any of us can become "as perfect as Christ" is to delegate Christ as a spiritual force that one can attune to, and doing that is the denial of His authority as God The Saviour. It is to downgrade Christ Jesus into treating Him as just a prophet like Mohammed, Buddha, Krishna, etc.

There is ONLY ONE WAY of Salvation unto Eternal Life, and that is through The Name of Jesus Christ and none other.

Acts 4:10-12
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Whom ye crucified, Whom God raised from the dead, even by Him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
(KJV)

 

[Xian Pugilist]

No, I think it's YOU that is leaning towards ideas of Gnosticism.

Funny, because the words you highlighted up there and said was gnostic was a quote from Paul. They weren't my words, nor my idea. So, errrr, you condemned Paul as a gnostic. You need to slow down. Read what's said. Not let what you think someone is going to say get in the way of what is actually said.

ANY supposition that any of us can become "as perfect as Christ" is to delegate Christ as a spiritual force that one can attune to, and doing that is the denial of His authority as God The Saviour.

No, it's not. You are speaking from fear of failure. Nothing in this sentence is relevant to what was said, nor what scripture intends. For you to hold that statement as true, AND apply it to the scripture you have to say God is not omnipotent. And I'm not sure, because so far you are just "out there" enough to maybe make that claim. But I find part of GOD is being omnipotent. I'm pretty sure HE could get it done.

It is to downgrade Christ Jesus into treating Him as just a prophet like Mohammed, Buddha, Krishna, etc.

No it's not. You are just ranting. Are you frothing at the lips too?

There is ONLY ONE WAY of Salvation unto Eternal Life, and that is through The Name of Jesus Christ and none other.

Xian maturity/perfection has nothing to do with salvation. It's something that happens AFTER salvation. Now, does that take the fear out of this chat so you will stop lashing out so rabidly?

Acts 4:10-12
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Whom ye crucified, Whom God raised from the dead, even by Him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
(KJV)

[sup]12 [/sup]for the equipping of the [sup][d][/sup]saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; [sup]13 [/sup]

until we all attain

until we all... would be the people of the Church.

to the unity of the faith, and of the [sup][e][/sup]knowledge of the Son of God,

Are on the same page, and understand HIM the same. milk/meat coming together.

to a mature man,

Most translations say Perfect man. It means mature though as a better match in our English. So there is some growth a person is supposed to do after being saved and joining the church. This is a problem for fundagelicals because often all they hear is salvation. They think it's ALL about salvation. That's only a part of Christ's purpose. Not even the big part at that.

to the measure

If CHrist's perfection/maturity were a glass and how full the glass was is how mature he is, we would be filled to the same point...

of the stature [sup][f][/sup]

We would be the same size glass.

which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

And that is compared to ALL OF HIS maturity, not just a part.

Paul said it.

Not me.
It's exactly as I presented.

Please read it and study it and stop ranting and let's discuss.

 

[us2are1]

It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master.

Matthew 10:25

 

[Xian Pugilist]

It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master.

Matthew 10:25

1 john 3:6 comes to mind.

 

[us2are1]

6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

Amen

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.

Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

and, fortunately he doesn't expect me to do that before I get Grace, but plans on taking me there after. He's pretty cool for an All Powerful entity and all that.

 

[veteran]

[/b]

Funny, because the words you highlighted up there and said was gnostic was a quote from Paul. They weren't my words, nor my idea. So, errrr, you condemned Paul as a gnostic. You need to slow down. Read what's said. Not let what you think someone is going to say get in the way of what is actually said.

I think you've lost it and something else is taking over in you.

Gnosticism can sound a lot like true Christian Doctrine simply because it borrowed directly from Christian Doctrine in The Scriptures. But Gnosticism is not Christian Doctrine, but pagan doctrine, because it DENIES Christ Jesus as God The Saviour, Immanuel God with us just so it can think to become one's very 'own' Christ in place of Jesus Christ.

That's why those on that false Gnosticism would use false terms like "as perfect as Christ", which phrase is purposefully meant to say we each can be our own Christ. We can NEVER be "as perfect as Christ" simply because He IS GOD and we are not. We can only be 'counted' perfect by Him when we follow what He said do. As Paul taught in Galatians that the Scriptures has concluded all under sin so that Salvation could be to those who believe on Jesus Christ, that is how we can never be "as perfect as Christ", for He had NO SIN EVER.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

As Christian's, we are types of Christ, just as Moses, King David, and Biblical sacrifices are types of Christ. Christian's are eligible, even now, as declared by Jesus Himself, to share every function of ministry in Jesus (According to the works he performed). This inevitably includes atonement.!.. unless Christ's work was in vain.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

I think you've lost it and something else is taking over in you.

Are you kidding me? Is this third grade or something? You highlighted a quote from PAUL and called it Gnostic. There is nothing to that action to point it back at me. Be an adult and admit to an error.

Gnosticism can sound a lot like true Christian Doctrine simply because it borrowed directly from Christian Doctrine in The Scriptures.

Xian doctrine can sound a lot like Gnosticism to the paranoid schizophrenic too.

But Gnosticism is not Christian Doctrine, but pagan doctrine, because it DENIES Christ Jesus as God The Saviour, Immanuel God with us just so it can think to become one's very 'own' Christ in place of Jesus Christ.

We aren't discussing if GNOSTICISM is Xian doctrine. STAY ON TOPIC. We are discussing WHY YOU THINK PAUL IS A GNOSTIC TEACHER!

That's why those on that false Gnosticism would use false terms like "as perfect as Christ", which phrase is purposefully meant to say we each can be our own Christ. We can NEVER be "as perfect as Christ" simply because He IS GOD and we are not.

Christ prayed for us to be, and John said we were, as well as Paul. Paul said it directly, the quote you said was ME being gnostic, you bolded Paul's words. Do you eliminate Paul from the Canon for being Gnostic?

We can only be 'counted' perfect by Him when we follow what He said do.

Yes, but this doesn't preclude being actually finished remade..... which is what the word PERFECT means in scripture.

As Paul taught in Galatians that the Scriptures has concluded all under sin so that Salvation could be to those who believe on Jesus Christ, that is how we can never be "as perfect as Christ", for He had NO SIN EVER.

Nobody is claiming to be as perfect as Christ, EVER. We are talking being made as perfect as He was, with the word perfect in Greek meaning more akin to MATURE, or finished. In short we are to be as spirutally mature as HE was on earth. That's EXACTLY what scripture says.

No fancy word smithing.
No pedantics
no semantics
no playin'
straight forward, obvious and quadruply redundantified. (made up word, see redundant.)

As Christian's, we are types of Christ, just as Moses, King David, and Biblical sacrifices are types of Christ. Christian's are eligible, even now, as declared by Jesus Himself, to share every function of ministry in Jesus (According to the works he performed). This inevitably includes atonement.!.. unless Christ's work was in vain.

HEY, I used to live in Simi and called on clients in Ventura, small world.

What does this say to you about how Christ like you are to become.....

11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the [d]saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

13 until we all

attain to the unity of the faith, and of the [e]knowledge of the Son of God,

to a mature man, (this word is perfect in KJV and others...)

to the measure

of the stature

[f]which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

14 [g]As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness [h]in deceitful scheming;

 

[dragonfly]

As Christian's, we are types of Christ, just as Moses, King David, and Biblical sacrifices are types of Christ. Christian's are eligible, even now, as declared by Jesus Himself, to share every function of ministry in Jesus (According to the works he performed). This inevitably includes atonement.!.. unless Christ's work was in vain.

Hi mls, please could you clarify the 'This' in 'This inevitably includes the atonment'?

 

[martinlawrencescott]

Hey Dragonfly,

I can. It has to do with the murder of Christ and what category of sin this falls under and which sacrifice is needed to atone for it. Deut 21:1-9 is pertaining to the atonement of sin, however a heifer can not be symbolic of Christ because its neck is broken. Or, if you look in the historical context, its head is severed. What that means is there is another sacrifice/atonement for sin besides Christ. We (Christians) are the only available answer since we are declared spotless in His sight. Meaning we (Christians) have the right to atone for sin the same way Jesus Christ atoned for us, and more importantly, for the sin even Jesus Christ is held guilty of. If you rationalize who murdered Jesus, since He became sin, He by default is at part legally responsible and unqualified to die for his own death, which leaves us 3 options.

1. God nukes the world (not happening)
2. Jesus dies again (could happen but it's not a scriptural view, meaning He has the right to but you'll find nothing about this prophesied in scripture)
3. Christians atone for the murder of Jesus Christ

The implication of this goes further, but in answer to your question, we (Christians) becoming types of Christ, inevitably includes atonement.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Martin,

Please consider:

God is omnipotent.
The blood of Christ therefore did not force his forgiveness.

Thus forgiveness is by His will alone.

Christ on the cross is a symbol for us to rally around to trust God to keep His promise to forgive us.

Same as a rainbow doesn't stop the rain from flooding the earth.

If that blood did what you have claimed, as you have claimed, then it is more powerful than the all powerful God, meaning there is no all powerful God.

You might want to rethink your position.

 

[aspen]

Christ would have come for us even if we had not sinned in the Garden - Since we did fall away from God, He gave us what we needed most through His life and death - love and forgiveness.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

Forgiveness has to do with reconciliation so by nature forgiveness is in 2 parts. The sin of ignorance means we already did our part, without us knowing it... Christ did the other and as far as reconciliation goes, Jesus sealed the deal so to speak on the Cross.

"Christ on the cross is a symbol for us to rally around to trust God to keep His promise to forgive us."
-I don't find a problem with this statement? Sounds good to me.


"Same as a rainbow doesn't stop the rain from flooding the earth."
-rainbow referring to the cross as a symbol. I'm thinking you're thinking I'm glorifying a symbol in Jesus blood. I'm not. A symbol's power is in it's truth and can't really be contrary to its source. Right, unless it's a faulty symbol? What I'm saying is I don't usually glorify rainbows over God.

"If that blood did what you have claimed, as you have claimed, then it is more powerful than the all powerful God, meaning there is no all powerful God."

I don't quite understand this statement

If that blood did what I have claimed- covered ignorance concerning sin.

So the power of His death would be more powerful than God Himself? Meaning the power of His death can't exceed God? I'm still not quite sure. Ya, I tried to follow but you lost me. But it's okay cause I lost you too.

My point was that Christ's words exceeded our expectation and reach. His death on the cross covered a sin that no other sacrifice needs to atone for. That is the sin of ignorance. The sin of knowledge requires a choice in order to receive His forgiveness for wrongs we know we committed. For the most part we're covered until the point we've heard the gospel. That means we are held accountable to the knowledge we have received. There is still some accountability to the creation but that is individual and how much God reveals to each person about Himself. My point is there is one sin that doesn't fall into either category and that is referring to His death on the cross. A second sacrifice is needed to cover it. I don't wanna leave people hanging. I believe Christians are eligible to atone. I believe the heifer in Deuteronomy 21:1-9 refers to us, dying for the sake of those who didn't receive Christ.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi mls,

His death on the cross covered a sin that no other sacrifice needs to atone for. That is the sin of ignorance.

Adam wasn't ignorant.

Thanks for answering my earlier question.

I believe Christians are eligible to atone. I believe the heifer in Deuteronomy 21:1-9 refers to us, dying for the sake of those who didn't receive Christ.

You are misunderstanding the purpose of the law, which was 'added because of transgression'. As a result, you are demonstrating an incomplete understanding of the atonement.

Are the ideas you put forth here, your own, or, are they the content of teaching you've been exposed to?

 

[martinlawrencescott]

Neither I hope. Just my study of what I feel God is trying to teach me of late.

So far no one has been able to knock it according to scripture. The purpose of the law, as you stated, I don't think refutes my point on atonement. Would you like to clarify where I'm messing up? I did use scripture in this last post, so feel free to tell me which part I referenced etc. and how I'm getting it wrong; no slight or put down intended.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Forgiveness has to do with reconciliation so by nature forgiveness is in 2 parts. The sin of ignorance means we already did our part, without us knowing it... Christ did the other and as far as reconciliation goes, Jesus sealed the deal so to speak on the Cross.

"Christ on the cross is a symbol for us to rally around to trust God to keep His promise to forgive us."
-I don't find a problem with this statement? Sounds good to me.


"Same as a rainbow doesn't stop the rain from flooding the earth."
-rainbow referring to the cross as a symbol. I'm thinking you're thinking I'm glorifying a symbol in Jesus blood. I'm not. A symbol's power is in it's truth and can't really be contrary to its source. Right, unless it's a faulty symbol? What I'm saying is I don't usually glorify rainbows over God.p

I'm not glorifying the cross nor the rainbow. But I used the rainbow to help express how His death (which is what I meant by 'cross) didn't have some power over God, but merely was the fulfillment of a promise. The death was the SIGN of the event. Not the event. The event was merely God is going to forgive you. WHICH HE WOULD HAVE DONE ANYWAY but by the death on the cross we have a reason we can relate to to actually believe he will. Remember, Adam hid from GOD, God wasn't kept from Adam.

"If that blood did what you have claimed, as you have claimed, then it is more powerful than the all powerful God, meaning there is no all powerful God."

I don't quite understand this statement

Some people idolize the cross, the blood, whatever they choose regarding the death of Christ. Christ didn't have to die for God to forgive our sins. HOWEVER SINCE GOD said His death would be the symbol then Being a "man of His word" Christ had to die. BUT GOD COULD have chosen something else for a symbol, a holy grail, a purple earthworm, a green haired queen, whatever, and we would have sought that xyz to be forgiven.

In short, since God could have chosen any other symbol HE wanted to, Christ went through His punishment, pain, and agonizing death, KNOWING it didn't have to happen, but He did it, by his design, anyway.

So the power of His death would be more powerful than God Himself? Meaning the power of His death can't exceed God? I'm still not quite sure. Ya, I tried to follow but you lost me. But it's okay cause I lost you too.

If the blood FORCED GOD TO FORGIVE as many express it, that the blood has some supernatural ability to make God or that God couldn't do it without the blood, then the blood is more powerful than God and thus God isn't supernatural.

God could forgive without the blood.

My point was that Christ's words exceeded our expectation and reach. His death on the cross covered a sin that no other sacrifice needs to atone for. That is the sin of ignorance. The sin of knowledge requires a choice in order to receive His forgiveness for wrongs we know we committed. For the most part we're covered until the point we've heard the gospel. That means we are held accountable to the knowledge we have received. There is still some accountability to the creation but that is individual and how much God reveals to each person about Himself. My point is there is one sin that doesn't fall into either category and that is referring to His death on the cross. A second sacrifice is needed to cover it. I don't wanna leave people hanging. I believe Christians are eligible to atone. I believe the heifer in Deuteronomy 21:1-9 refers to us, dying for the sake of those who didn't receive Christ.

I'm ok with all of this last part.

Hi mls,

Adam wasn't ignorant.

Thanks for answering my earlier question.



You are misunderstanding the purpose of the law, which was 'added because of transgression'. As a result, you are demonstrating an incomplete understanding of the atonement.

That's true but incomplete. Gentiles were never under the law. Christ has a church established under the order of MELCHIZEDEK. There was no law, no jew, no gentile in that Church. In Him there is no Jew or Gentile.

Are the ideas you put forth here, your own, or, are they the content of teaching you've been exposed to?

 

[martinlawrencescott]

I end up agreeing with you Xian. For some reason though, there is something so symbolic about the blood. Say God can forgive without the shedding of blood (Which He can because God could have done this any way He wants without any symbolism). Why's the blood so important? (The shedding part concerning atonement, anyway.)

Also,

"Gentiles were never under the law. Christ has a church established under the order of MELCHIZEDEK. There was no law, no jew, no gentile in that Church. In Him there is no Jew or Gentile." True this.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

I end up agreeing with you Xian. For some reason though, there is something so symbolic about the blood. Say God can forgive without the shedding of blood (Which He can because God could have done this any way He wants without any symbolism). Why's the blood so important? (The shedding part concerning atonement, anyway.)

Well, it's important because that's the way He chose to call us? He could have sent us for the grail or watermelon or whatever. But He made us with an intrinsic love for our children. Then he taught us that he would accept blood as the payment for forgiveness. So later when He sent His son to shed His blood, we know how much it meant for Him, to let us know we could come home.

A picture I have/illustration, would be the Prodigal left, and the father waited for him to come home. THEN welcomed the unclean, unworthy, totally poor in Spirit man home and fixed and cleaned him, etc.... With God, it's the same story, except He's been painting the picture for generations/millennia to CALL us home. Paul talks about our conscience being clean in a few places. We need a clear conscience to come home or we fear judgement and punishment. Reference ADAM. God stood in the presence of sin, he went and fixed Adam's sin. ADAM FLED GOD, not God fled Adam.

We are like Adam, we hide from our sins> God has called us home, and has given us a big symbol to help us feel comfortable that we can safely come home.

That's how I see it.

And martin, I never want someone to agree with me. We can disagree all day. It's all about ribbing each other deeper into understanding and living. We can't find the answer if someone doesn't push us through a door.