Hello XP and mls,
This answer may seem a little long, but it seemed easier to share my comments with both of you.
XP, when you said,
That's true but incomplete. Gentiles were never under the law. Christ has a church established under the order of MELCHIZEDEK. There was no law, no jew, no gentile in that Church. In Him there is no Jew or Gentile.
I know that the Gentiles were never under the law. I mentioned the law because mls did... Please read the whole paragraph properly in the light of
My point was that Christ's words exceeded our expectation and reach. His death on the cross covered a sin that no other sacrifice needs to atone for. That is the sin of ignorance. The sin of knowledge requires a choice in order to receive His forgiveness for wrongs we know we committed. For the most part we're covered until the point we've heard the gospel. That means we are held accountable to the knowledge we have received. There is still some accountability to the creation but that is individual and how much God reveals to each person about Himself.
My point is there is one sin that doesn't fall into either category and that is referring to His death on the cross. A second sacrifice is needed to cover it. I don't wanna leave people hanging. I believe Christians are eligible to atone. I believe the heifer in Deuteronomy 21:1-9 refers to us, dying for the sake of those who didn't receive Christ.
I picked up on it because it is wholly unscriptural. Both of you have created separate false doctrines around the meanings of the death of Christ and the spiritual dynamics to which God was attending through it.
Here's the whole of Deu 21:1- 9
If [one] be found slain in the land which the LORD thy God gives thee to possess it, lying in the field, [and] it be not known who has slain him: 2 Then thy elders and thy judges shall come forth, and they shall measure unto the cities which [are] round about him that is slain: 3 And it shall be, [that] the city [which is] next to the slain man, even the elders of that city shall take an heifer, which has not been wrought with, [and] which has not drawn in the yoke; 4 And the elders of that city shall bring down the heifer to a rough valley, which is neither eared nor sown, and shall strike off the heifer's neck there in the valley: 5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be [tried]: {word: Heb. mouth}
6 And all the elders of that city, [that are] next unto the slain [man], shall wash their hands over the heifer that is beheaded in the valley: 7 And they shall answer and say, Our hands have not shed this blood, neither have our eyes seen [it]. 8 Be merciful, O LORD, unto thy people Israel, whom thou hast redeemed, and lay not innocent blood to thy people of Israel's charge. And the blood shall be forgiven them. {unto thy people of: Heb. in the midst, etc}
9 So shalt thou put away the [guilt of] innocent blood from among you, when thou shalt do [that which is] right in the sight of the LORD.
In answer to the claim you're making, mls, I offer that Jesus Christ died just before the Day of Atonement that year, fulfilling everything which the Day of Atonement was intended to fulfil and more. It was an entirely intentional sacrifice by the Father of His Son who willingly laid down His life for us because He loved us of His own free will, John 10:17, 18 just as the Father loves us. John 3:16, 17.
Regarding atonement for sins of ignorance, see
Numbers 15:22 - 31. Christ fulfilled this part of the law, too.
Christ didn't have to die for God to forgive our sins.
But I used the rainbow to help express how His death (which is what I meant by 'cross) didn't have some power over God, but merely was the fulfillment of a promise. The death was the SIGN of the event. Not the event. The event was merely God is going to forgive you. WHICH HE WOULD HAVE DONE ANYWAY but by the death on the cross we have a reason we can relate to to actually believe he will.
XP, your minisation of the events on the cross, the reasons for them and their import, is alarming! No, God would not have forgiven sins 'anyway'. Forgiveness of sins is not 'mere'. Christ's death on the cross was essential.
All the forgiveness God had meted out in the OT depended
entirely upon it.
Paul talks about our conscience being clean in a few places. We need a clear conscience to come home or we fear judgement and punishment. Reference ADAM. God stood in the presence of sin, he went and fixed Adam's sin. ADAM FLED GOD, not God fled Adam.
We are like Adam, we hide from our sins> God has called us home, and has given us a big symbol to help us feel comfortable that we can safely come home.
Dear brother, the judgment and punishment was poured out on Jesus Christ.
THAT is why we do not fear.
THAT is why we rejoice to come in faith and repentance to Him, for forgiveness of
our sins (yes, but also), the washing in His blood of our souls (a new heart), the regeneration of the Holy Spirit (a new spirit) and power (grace) to be different - showing ourselves to be new creations - sons of God John 1:12, 13; Romans 8:14, 15, 16 able to walk worthy of the vocation wherewith we have been called, as children of light, walking in His light 1 John 1:7 and agape Eph 5:2.
If the blood FORCED GOD TO FORGIVE as many express it, that the blood has some supernatural ability to make God or that God couldn't do it without the blood, then the blood is more powerful than God and thus God isn't supernatural.
Brother, God REQUIRED the blood in order to permit Himself to forgive.
The blood of Christ has spiritual qualities: it is eternal, (therefore) it is always available, and
Genesis 9:4; Leviticus 17:14 For [it is] the life of all flesh; the blood of it [is] for the life thereof: therefore I said to the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh [is] the blood thereof: whosoever eats it shall be cut off. So what change was about to happen when Jesus said: John 6:54?
Bearing in mind that God would cut off anyone eating blood, being sinners, we see that in our coming to Christ through His death and resurrection,
we are freed from the power of sin, washed in His word (our bodies washed with pure water - symbolised by baptism), and instructed to partake of His flesh and His blood in remembrance of His death. If you were a new Jewish Christian you were not allowed to eat the fellowship meal (Passover) until you'd been baptised.
Paul's exhoration to the Ephesian church leaders, puts an overall perspective on the importance of the blood from God's point of view. It is
HIS. Act
s 20:28:Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood.
The last seven words of Paul's statement is the basic definiton of Biblical redemption.
God could forgive without the blood.
I hope you are beginning to see how incorrect your hitherto apprehension has been.
The Day of Atonement settled any outstanding debts to God.
Leviticus 16:20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: 21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
Jesus Christ was a 'fit man' when He was put on the cross for all our sins.
Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.
Beware of the pleasant view of the Fatherhood of God – God is so kind and loving that of course He will forgive us. That sentiment has no place whatever in the New Testament. The only ground on which God can forgive us is the tremendous tragedy of the Cross of Christ; to put forgiveness on any other ground is unconscious blasphemy. The only ground on which God can forgive sin and reinstate us in His favour is through the Cross of Christ, and in no other way. Forgiveness, which is so easy for us to accept, cost the agony of Calvary. It is possible to take the forgiveness of sin, the gift of the Holy Ghost, and our sanctification with the simplicity of faith, and to forget at what enormous cost to God it was all made ours.
Forgiveness is the divine miracle of grace; it cost God the Cross of Jesus Christ before He could forgive sin and remain a holy God. Never accept a view of the Fatherhood of God if it blots out the Atonement. The revelation of God is that He cannot forgive; He would contradict His nature if He did. The only way we can be forgiven is by being brought back to God by the Atonement. God’s forgiveness is only natural in the supernatural domain.
Compared with the miracle of the forgiveness of sin, the experience of sanctification is slight. Sanctification is simply the marvellous expression of the forgiveness of sins in a human life, but the thing that awakens the deepest well of gratitude in a human being is that God has forgiven sin. Paul never got away from this. When once you realize all that it cost God to forgive you, you will be held as in a vice, constrained by the love of God.
~~ Oswald Chambers ~~ My Utmost for His Highest ~~ 20th November ~~
Finally, mls, there is no NT scripture to support your reversion to 'the law' for atonement
by Christians. That kind of idea is
promoted by the Catholic Church and other religious cults, which show their participants and teachers to not recognise the sacrifice of Jesus Christ
is sufficient to take away the sin of the whole world. John 1:29, 1 John 2:2.
It is now up to world community members to come to Him individually, to be freed from their sin(s).
... that doesn't even feel right. :wacko:
