Christ-like.

[Prentis]

It's true Prentise that "God is merciful, but that is to the person, not to the sin." Sin is always in judgement and therefore God does not forgive sin but forgives the Christian just as you've stated. Rom 6:6 writes that "our old man is crucified with Him". The idea of crucifixion is not to immediately kill the subject, but only render him to a detained position until he is dead. This is the model of the ongoing ("is crucified"; not has been crucified, but remains on the cross, and that "daily"--Luke 9:23) crucifixion of our sinful nature, it is still alive enough to affect us but too weak to rule us and it will eventually be eradicated.

Christ is the "only begotten of the Father", but we are not. Christ is sovereign, but we are not. He is Deity, but we are not and He is sinless, but we are not.

Whether we are or not is not the issue here. The issue is whether the power is available to become the sons of God. People deny a standard of holiness they believe impossible because they have never experienced... But the Bible testifies to a power by which we become just like Christ. If we would die, Christ will live fully through us.

Do you believe this, that if we die, he will live through us? Then how can Christ sin? If he lives, and we don't, then there is no place for sin, because he is without sin. This is the truth men go through greath theological lengths to deny.

The issue is, regardless of our understanding concerning the continued possession of a sinful nature or the absence of it, the believer is free from the guilt of it. To be inaccurate in our understanding of this issue will not affect the possession of our salvation, but will affect the growth of it.

To claim we are without sin may intend a good motive but is a denial of self deception (1 John 1:8). The only way to be sinless, at anytime, is to never have sinned, because after the first sin, one is guilty of all sin (James 2:10) and only One can claim He has never sinned (1 John 1:10). This is also why "as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse" (Gal 3:10), because man wasn't intended to be able to kept the Law perfectly, to show it required Another that could. The Law was not intended to make one right because only Christ could make this possible. The Law was to reveal man is guilty of sin, because "the strength of sin is the Law" (1 Cor 15:56).

Free from the guilt? That is the basis of a powerless gospel. It takes out transformation, new life, and replaces it with immunity.

The issue is not to have never sinned.

Rom_3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

If we truly have come to the cross, and been crucified with Christ, we are a new creation, and the things past are gone. The sin, the old life, is no more. But now we must abide in him and walk as he walked. This is the calling.

The unbelief preached in today's modern gospel is well masked... It becomes obvious with one question; can we truly be in Christ in whom there is no sin, and thus live as he lived? Is the gospel speaking of power, or words?

Paul himself claimed to have 'not yet attained'... The modern gospel of unbelief begs the question, attained what?

 

[Netchaplain]

Holiness, sanctification, righteousness and justification, which are all attributes of God, are not imparted to us to possess, but imputed to us to partake - by virtue of the vicarious works of Christ.

For example, to "be justified by faith" (Rom 5:1) does not mean that it is our faith that justifies us, because it is God who justifies, not our faith. Faith is the medium through which God justifies us, i. e., faith in God to justify us. These attributes of God, which are incommunicable to creatures, are provided to us, never produced or merited by us. This is why it is said that "Christ Jesus . . . is made unto us . . . righteousness and sanctification" (1 Cor 1:30).

We are not holy by anything we have done, but because He is holy, we are holy. This is what is meant by "Be ye holy; for I am holy" (1 Pet 1:16). We attain by grace, not obtain by merit. By humility we realize that everything we have of God results not from our doing, but from our being. Even going to Christ in faith wasn't our doing: "No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him" (John 6:44). The desire we have for God's will does not originate from us: "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13).

"For if the firstfruit (Jesus) is holy, the lump (us) is also holy; and if the root (Vine) is holy, so are the branches (us)" (Rom 11:16). ". . .in Christ shall all be made alive . . .Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming" (1 Cor 15:23).

 

[IanLC]

If any man be in Christ he is a new creature! That is one of the main components of Christ Jesus coming to die for our sins and being resurrected. Man is dead in sin. Sin is there to literally kill mankind on all angles. Yet by the power of the Holy Spirit the believer can walk in freedom and authority as Christ Jesus did. Jesus was full of love the incarnate of love itself thus we should love and be full of love. Jesus was full off forgiveness we should be full of forgiveness, Jesus lived holy and is holy we should live holy!

 

[jiggyfly]

Holiness, sanctification, righteousness and justification, which are all attributes of God, are not imparted to us to possess, but imputed to us to partake - by virtue of the vicarious works of Christ.

For example, to "be justified by faith" (Rom 5:1) does not mean that it is our faith that justifies us, because it is God who justifies, not our faith. Faith is the medium through which God justifies us, i. e., faith in God to justify us. These attributes of God, which are incommunicable to creatures, are provided to us, never produced or merited by us. This is why it is said that "Christ Jesus . . . is made unto us . . . righteousness and sanctification" (1 Cor 1:30).

We are not holy by anything we have done, but because He is holy, we are holy. This is what is meant by "Be ye holy; for I am holy" (1 Pet 1:16). We attain by grace, not obtain by merit. By humility we realize that everything we have of God results not from our doing, but from our being. Even going to Christ in faith wasn't our doing: "No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him" (John 6:44). The desire we have for God's will does not originate from us: "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13).

"For if the firstfruit (Jesus) is holy, the lump (us) is also holy; and if the root (Vine) is holy, so are the branches (us)" (Rom 11:16). ". . .in Christ shall all be made alive . . .Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming" (1 Cor 15:23).

Excellent post NC.

 

[Axehead]

The "Elephant in the room" with Protestants is that they deny the Subjective Experience of Christ.

Protestants have adamantly denied that a Christian is “made” or “becomes” righteous – or changed in any way.

Andreas Osiander (1498-1552) was an early ally of Martin Luther in the Protestant Reformation, but differed from Luther on the subject of “justification.” Osiander believed that the righteousness of a believer was accomplished, not just by objective imputation, but by the subjective indwelling of the living Christ – that the meaning of the Greek dikaiosune could legitimately mean “to make righteous.” Osiander was eventually repudiated by both Martin Luther and John Calvin, and relegated to the blacklist of Protestant heretics. To this day Protestants are extremely afraid of his concept of an indwelling participation in the life of Christ.

Martin Luther - “The Christian is simultaneously both (extrinsically) righteous and (intrinsically) sinner.”
D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones - “Justification makes no actual change in us; it is a declaration. The Christian is not a good man; he is a vile wretch saved by the grace of God.”
Alister McGrath - “Protestant justification involves the alien righteousness of Christ imputed to the believer, external to him, not located in him, or in any way belonging to him.”

How is a Protestant Christian to live? The objective benefits have no affect on who we are, or how we live. The best he can do is to “reckon” that God has “reckoned” him “righteous” via a “positive thinking” process.

Post-reformation Catholic theologians chided the Protestants:

“If a Protestant Christian were ever to act righteously, the Protestants would have to attribute such to ‘works,’ for his theology makes no provision for any subjective resource of divine dynamic (Christ dwelling in the Christian and making them righteous, experientially).

And because of Protestant theology, this is precisely why it is so difficult to get through to them that God wants us to be righteous, and not just by objective imputation but by the subjective indwelling of Christ.

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Well, I come from a Presbyterian background, and I'm amazed at how true :huh: those observations are, Axehead. Thank you.

But

slowly, I've had no choice but to bring my personal understanding into line with scripture, no matter what 'theologians' say.

 

[Axehead]

And no doubt you were able to bring your personal understanding in line with scripture because the Holy Spirit is much more powerful than Theologians.

When I understood this it all came clear to me why so many decry "WORKS, WORKS", when they are being told that we must abide in Christ to bear and manifest REAL fruit and come to maturity in Christ, in the HERE and NOW!

Could this be why the Lord will say to many, "I never knew you"? Quite possible. To know Him and be known of Him, one must be willing to come under His authority as a Father and know Him by and through the Cross.


It is a painful thing to die to the flesh and to submit to the chastening of the Lord. We have to totally depend upon God. We become broken vessels. It does not look like victory to the world and to those who love a form of godliness: "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous; nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the PEACEABLE FRUIT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS unto them which are exercised thereby." (Heb. 12:11)

Discipline causes us to yield the peaceful fruit of "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such things there is no law." (Gal. 5:22,23) This is the body of Christ which fulfills the law by submitting to discipline in obedience to the Spirit of God. This is the only way we can have a pure heart. This is sanctification and the walk of peace. "Pursue PEACE with all men, and the SANCTIFICATION WITHOUT WHICH NO ONE WILL SEE THE LORD." (Heb. 12:14)

You don't manifest the peaceable fruit of righteousness in your life by "positive confession".

Paul encouraged the Thessalonians about the opposition and trials which were coming upon the churches of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the fire which we go through to become vessels of gold and honor.

Paul said, "For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God... for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen" (1 Thess. 2:14). "[We] ... sent Timotheus... to establish, and to comfort you concerning your faith, that no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto... when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulations; even as it came to pass, and ye know. For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your FAITH, lest by some means the TEMPTER have TEMPTED YOU, and (you fall away from the faith so) our labour be in vain. (1 Thess. 3:2-5).

Paul was fearful that they would not stand in the trials and persecutions to be perfected in love.

He feared that through the temptations, trials and pressures of the powers of darkness, they would turn from the faith back to the ways of the flesh. Therefore, they could not be perfected in love to become complete, holy and blameless.

An example of this is in the parable of the Word: "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root (Jesus), WHICH FOR A WHILE BELIEVE, and in time of TEMPTATION (by the powers of darkness) FALL AWAY" (from being perfected in love) (Luke 8:11-13).

They fall away from being perfected in love when the tempter can cause their hearts to turn from God to love other things more than God. This is how we fall away from the faith. We see another heart which fails to be perfected in love in the following verse: "And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this present life, and bring no fruit (of love) to perfection" (Luke 8:14). They love the world and the ways of the world more than God. They are not perfected in love to bring godly fruit to maturity.

Axehead

 

[veteran]

The "Elephant in the room" with Protestants is that they deny the Subjective Experience of Christ.

Protestants have adamantly denied that a Christian is “made” or “becomes” righteous – or changed in any way.

Andreas Osiander (1498-1552) was an early ally of Martin Luther in the Protestant Reformation, but differed from Luther on the subject of “justification.” Osiander believed that the righteousness of a believer was accomplished, not just by objective imputation, but by the subjective indwelling of the living Christ – that the meaning of the Greek dikaiosune could legitimately mean “to make righteous.” Osiander was eventually repudiated by both Martin Luther and John Calvin, and relegated to the blacklist of Protestant heretics. To this day Protestants are extremely afraid of his concept of an indwelling participation in the life of Christ.

Martin Luther - “The Christian is simultaneously both (extrinsically) righteous and (intrinsically) sinner.”
D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones - “Justification makes no actual change in us; it is a declaration. The Christian is not a good man; he is a vile wretch saved by the grace of God.”
Alister McGrath - “Protestant justification involves the alien righteousness of Christ imputed to the believer, external to him, not located in him, or in any way belonging to him.”

How is a Protestant Christian to live? The objective benefits have no affect on who we are, or how we live. The best he can do is to “reckon” that God has “reckoned” him “righteous” via a “positive thinking” process.

Post-reformation Catholic theologians chided the Protestants:

“If a Protestant Christian were ever to act righteously, the Protestants would have to attribute such to ‘works,’ for his theology makes no provision for any subjective resource of divine dynamic (Christ dwelling in the Christian and making them righteous, experientially).

And because of Protestant theology, this is precisely why it is so difficult to get through to them that God wants us to be righteous, and not just by objective imputation but by the subjective indwelling of Christ.

Axehead

I'm a Protestant, and I never was taught those things you ascribe as Protestantism. That sounds more like Gnosticism, the erroneous idea that we each can become our own Christ. It's the old pagan idea of man seeking perfection in the flesh, which is impossible to ever achieve.

The whole New Testament teaches that righteous works in Christ Jesus are important for the Christian believer after they have believed on Christ Jesus, and that's a separate issue from His ability to save us while we are still yet sinners. We all fall short of the glory of God as written, and the Scriptures has concluded all under sin so Salvation could be to those who believe on Jesus Christ (Gal.3:22). We are to repent of future sins we may fall into, asking forgiveness of Christ Jesus, and then get back to doing His work. Then like John said, He cleanses us.

But this stuff that we have no sin, or can never have sin after believing on Christ Jesus and baptized, that's a load of malarchy, for Paul was referring to our spirit inside our flesh with that, about it's wanting to no sin, but our flesh always warring with it.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi veteran,

I liked your post. Your last sentence prompts me to comment that we can (and should) develop good habits, with God's help.

for Paul was referring to our spirit inside our flesh with that, about it's wanting to no sin, but our flesh always warring with it.

One of the things Paul also talks about is discipline - that no-one striving for mastery can gain the crown unless he strives lawfully; that he buffets his own body so as not to become complacent about his relationship with God; that a soldier doesn't take on interests and responsibilities which will interfere with his first responsibility to be focused on the battle in hand. (My paraphrase) His other picture is of a farmer, who has to keep tending the plants in order to bring them to readiness for harvest. All these pictures commend themselves to us regarding the process of continuing to walk as He walked, and as we resist the flesh, we do develop physical habits which demonstrate who our Master is, and that we are not mastered by sin any more.

There is a world of difference between the Gnostic teaching which you mention, and the experience Jesus describes which John has recorded for us:

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him,

and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. ​

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:

that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. ​

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me,

and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. ​

This is not about individual 'Christs' , but about Christ Himself being known by individuals in each other, and together when they are gathered, through the unity of the Holy Spirit. There really is no such thing as harmony in the Holy Spirit, in scripture, although there is legitimate diversity making up the whole. Paul contrasts this with drinking into the cup of devils (plural), within idolatry - worshipping other than God.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles,

whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. ​

 

[veteran]

Hi veteran,

I liked your post. Your last sentence prompts me to comment that we can (and should) develop good habits, with God's help.



One of the things Paul also talks about is discipline - that no-one striving for mastery can gain the crown unless he strives lawfully; that he buffets his own body so as not to become complacent about his relationship with God; that a soldier doesn't take on interests and responsibilities which will interfere with his first responsibility to be focused on the battle in hand. (My paraphrase) His other picture is of a farmer, who has to keep tending the plants in order to bring them to readiness for harvest. All these pictures commend themselves to us regarding the process of continuing to walk as He walked, and as we resist the flesh, we do develop physical habits which demonstrate who our Master is, and that we are not mastered by sin any more.

There is a world of difference between the Gnostic teaching which you mention, and the experience Jesus describes which John has recorded for us:

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him,

and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. ​

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:

that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. ​

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me,

and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. ​

This is not about individual 'Christs' , but about Christ Himself being known by individuals in each other, and together when they are gathered, through the unity of the Holy Spirit. There really is no such thing as harmony in the Holy Spirit, in scripture, although there is legitimate diversity making up the whole. Paul contrasts this with drinking into the cup of devils (plural), within idolatry - worshipping other than God.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles,

whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. ​

But none of that has anything to do with one becoming their own Christ, which is a pagan Gnostic idea. In all of that it is still declaring our imperfection of this time in the flesh.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi veteran,

But none of that has anything to do with one becoming their own Christ

I know. But you seemed to be saying that if a person adopts Paul's statement 'Christ in you, the hope of glory', that is a gnostic idea.

It's possible I misunderstood you, but that's what I took from your response to Axehead's observation.

 

[Prentis]

And no doubt you were able to bring your personal understanding in line with scripture because the Holy Spirit is much more powerful than Theologians.

When I understood this it all came clear to me why so many decry "WORKS, WORKS", when they are being told that we must abide in Christ to bear and manifest REAL fruit and come to maturity in Christ, in the HERE and NOW!

Could this be why the Lord will say to many, "I never knew you"? Quite possible. To know Him and be known of Him, one must be willing to come under His authority as a Father and know Him by and through the Cross.


It is a painful thing to die to the flesh and to submit to the chastening of the Lord. We have to totally depend upon God. We become broken vessels. It does not look like victory to the world and to those who love a form of godliness: "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous; nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the PEACEABLE FRUIT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS unto them which are exercised thereby." (Heb. 12:11)

Discipline causes us to yield the peaceful fruit of "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such things there is no law." (Gal. 5:22,23) This is the body of Christ which fulfills the law by submitting to discipline in obedience to the Spirit of God. This is the only way we can have a pure heart. This is sanctification and the walk of peace. "Pursue PEACE with all men, and the SANCTIFICATION WITHOUT WHICH NO ONE WILL SEE THE LORD." (Heb. 12:14)

You don't manifest the peaceable fruit of righteousness in your life by "positive confession".

Paul encouraged the Thessalonians about the opposition and trials which were coming upon the churches of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the fire which we go through to become vessels of gold and honor.

Paul said, "For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God... for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen" (1 Thess. 2:14). "[We] ... sent Timotheus... to establish, and to comfort you concerning your faith, that no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto... when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulations; even as it came to pass, and ye know. For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your FAITH, lest by some means the TEMPTER have TEMPTED YOU, and (you fall away from the faith so) our labour be in vain. (1 Thess. 3:2-5).

Paul was fearful that they would not stand in the trials and persecutions to be perfected in love.

He feared that through the temptations, trials and pressures of the powers of darkness, they would turn from the faith back to the ways of the flesh. Therefore, they could not be perfected in love to become complete, holy and blameless.

An example of this is in the parable of the Word: "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root (Jesus), WHICH FOR A WHILE BELIEVE, and in time of TEMPTATION (by the powers of darkness) FALL AWAY" (from being perfected in love) (Luke 8:11-13).

They fall away from being perfected in love when the tempter can cause their hearts to turn from God to love other things more than God. This is how we fall away from the faith. We see another heart which fails to be perfected in love in the following verse: "And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this present life, and bring no fruit (of love) to perfection" (Luke 8:14). They love the world and the ways of the world more than God. They are not perfected in love to bring godly fruit to maturity.

Axehead

Excellent post(s) brother!

God will not welcome those who on the one hand claim all the promises but on the other do not receive his discipline, and are not willing to grow and be shaped into his likeness. We must allow the cross to do it's work in us!

 

[veteran]

Hi veteran,



I know. But you seemed to be saying that if a person adopts Paul's statement 'Christ in you, the hope of glory', that is a gnostic idea.

It's possible I misunderstood you, but that's what I took from your response to Axehead's observation.

That may be how some here 'want'... to read my statements, but they only delude themselves when they do that, for I never spoke anything against what Paul taught on the matter.

Christ Jesus working in us, and through us, is still... not any such idea of ourselves becoming 'a Christ'. Instead, our Lord Jesus gave specific warnings against those who say they are Christ (Matt.24). And Apostle Paul would never disagree with what He said, nor do I.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi veteran,

That may be how some here 'want'... to read my statements, but they only delude themselves when they do that, for I never spoke anything against what Paul taught on the matter.

Christ Jesus working in us, and through us, is still... not any such idea of ourselves becoming 'a Christ'. Instead, our Lord Jesus gave specific warnings against those who say they are Christ (Matt.24). And Apostle Paul would never disagree with what He said, nor do I.

Thanks for clearing this up. Amen.

• 
  

 

[Axehead]

When Paul said "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you," (Gal 4:19), he was not speaking of us becoming THE Christ.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


[background=rgb(248, 245, 235)]The name “Christian” (Greek Χριστιaνός) was first applied to the disciples in Antioch, as recorded in Acts 11:26. Some contend that the term “Christian” was first coined as a derogatory term, meaning “little Christs”, and was meant as a mockery, a term of derision for those that followed the teachings of Jesus. [/background]

[background=rgb(248, 245, 235)]It is not enough to follow His teachings, Christians must manifest His Spirit and character as a result of His indwelling presence. No one can live the Christian life apart from the Holy Spirit. We cannot manifest fruit without Him. He is looking for fruit that only the Holy Spirit can produce. [/background]

[background=rgb(248, 245, 235)]Axehead[/background]

 

[aspen]

When Paul said "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you," (Gal 4:19), he was not speaking of us becoming THE Christ.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


[background=rgb(248, 245, 235)]The name “Christian” (Greek Χριστιaνός) was first applied to the disciples in Antioch, as recorded in Acts 11:26. Some contend that the term “Christian” was first coined as a derogatory term, meaning “little Christs”, and was meant as a mockery, a term of derision for those that followed the teachings of Jesus. [/background]

[background=rgb(248, 245, 235)]It is not enough to follow His teachings, Christians must manifest His Spirit and character as a result of His indwelling presence. No one can live the Christian life apart from the Holy Spirit. We cannot manifest fruit without Him. He is looking for fruit that only the Holy Spirit can produce. [/background]

[background=rgb(248, 245, 235)]Axehead[/background]

Not sure if you could make 'loving God and neighbor' anymore complicated if you tried.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Scripture nowhere says we will become our own Christ. That's Gnosticism making that false statement.

Don't think that's what I said. It says you will become as completely as Spiritually mature as He was. Doesn't matter if you believe it to be true, that is what it says. Eph 4:11-17.

Since God indeed is Omnipotent, He could also change a grasshopper into a cow, right? Since that ought to be easy for Him, then making each believer their own Christ would be no big thing, right? It's better to stick to what He said... He is going to do, instead assigning all sorts of things to Him that He never declared He would do.

Perhaps it would pay heed to what He said He would do, rather than ignore those parts you don't like and pretend they aren't there.

Making us into our own Christs is something He never declared. Instead, Jesus and Apostle John showed how those who claim to be The Christ are instead "antichrists". So there's a very specific Bible teaching on this point that's hard for a believer to miss. Yet a Gnostic believer will simply disregard it.

You don't understand the Gnostics of the time. None of what you say here really applies to them. Not only that, but it has nothing to do with what I said, but instead with what you wished I'd said so you would have had some beef to grind legitimately. And it has the opposite claims of scripture.

You'll understand if I stick to scripture, yes?

When you read the Bible , it is obvious that the letters of Paul are not the same message as the message that Christ sends us, that is, if we assume that we are to emulate Christ.

[background=rgb(249,253,255)]"When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, 'Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'? [/background][background=rgb(249,253,255)]When Jesus heard this, he said, 'Healthy people don't need a doctor--sick people do.' (Matthew 9:11-12)[/background]

[background=rgb(249,253,255)]Paul the Apostle says[/background]

[background=rgb(249,253,255)]"When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin [/background][background=rgb(249,253,255)]not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. [/background][background=rgb(249,253,255)]But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. (Cor. 5:9-11)[/background]

[background=rgb(249,253,255)]Are we to assume that these brothers who are immoral are to be outcasts in the mind of Paul but for Jesus it is exactly these same people who NEED Christ's love. And doesn't Paul's Christianity assume a Judgemental and holier-than-thou point of view that "I, who am not [/background][background=rgb(249,253,255)]sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler are outcasting YOU, brother , and I shall not eat with you." ??? [/background]

Not sure if you could make 'loving God and neighbor' anymore complicated if you tried.

Most people have no clue what the word for LOVE means in your statement. So they oversimlify what it is to the point they claim it but don't do it, and then are too sure of themselves to learn otherwise. It's really quite the nightmare.

The word for LOVE was used for incestuous rape in the OT. See the LXX. It's also used for loving to do evil things.

There is a common meaning to the word, just as their is "stake" in stake for your tent, and stake in a business, that is ignored for overly romanticized definitions like "god's love".

 

[veteran]

Don't think that's what I said. It says you will become as completely as Spiritually mature as He was. Doesn't matter if you believe it to be true, that is what it says. Eph 4:11-17.

Even in Eph.4, Paul is making a clear distinction between us as followers of Christ vs. the Gnostic supposition of becoming one's own Christ. The very first requirement of someone becoming their 'own' Christ is to put oneself in Christ's place, which was the very first sin that Satan did against God. That idea is actually what Paul is referring to other Gentiles, to not walk as they do in the vanity of their own mind, for their kind of walk is about not being subject to anyone other than self, which is the idea of being one's own god.

And it's not difficult to see at all today with many who walk according to the vanity of their own mind, making false judgments and passing laws with no consideration of our Heavenly Father and His Christ.

Perhaps it would pay heed to what He said He would do, rather than ignore those parts you don't like and pretend they aren't there.

Ah, you shouldn't have said that, for that's a false supposition. It's apparently you that has ignored the rest of what Paul was teaching in Ephesians 4, which places your quote from Eph.4:11-17 in the perspective it belongs. Might want to study the previous Eph.4:5-8 verses again. Coming into the unity of the Faith Paul was speaking is not about one becoming "Christ-like" nor their own Christ.

You don't understand the Gnostics of the time. None of what you say here really applies to them. Not only that, but it has nothing to do with what I said, but instead with what you wished I'd said so you would have had some beef to grind legitimately. And it has the opposite claims of scripture.

The old Gnostic false belief of one becoming their own Christ has everything... to do with this post's topic. If you want to follow them, then go ahead. No one is stopping you. But you will never... achieve Christ status, not in this world, nor in the next.

Those in the pulpits preaching the lie that we can become 'Christ-like' ought to take a hard look at them, and see if they themselves have achieved Christ status yet. One might be surprised at how many Gnostics have crept into the pulpits today, and many brethren just swallow what they preach.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Even in Eph.4, Paul is making a clear distinction between us as followers of Christ vs. the Gnostic supposition of becoming one's own Christ.

And where in Ephesians 4 do you see this imaginary strawman of gnostic theology becoming your own christ. And how does that over ride that you will be made as perfect as Christ, as full a cup and the same size cup as His spiritual maturity, from what it says to what you want it to say? You are talking out of some inane fear motivated comments to protect the world from the boogeyman gnostic you see everywhere. NOT letting scripture tell you what to see in it.

The very first requirement of someone becoming their 'own' Christ is to put oneself in Christ's place, which was the very first sin that Satan did against God.

Hence forth I'm ignoring this be "own Christ" stuff as it's a delirious strawman, and not pertinent to what I said.

That idea is actually what Paul is referring to other Gentiles, to not walk as they do in the vanity of their own mind, for their kind of walk is about not being subject to anyone other than self, which is the idea of being one's own god.

[sup]11 [/sup]And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, [sup]12 [/sup]for the equipping of the [sup][d][/sup]saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; [sup]13 [/sup]until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the [sup][e][/sup]knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature [sup][f][/sup]which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

[sup]We all attain, is the members of the Church, not the Church Corporate. [/sup]
[sup]To a mature man, is also to a perfect man in many translations. It means as grown up as Christ was in this case. [/sup]
[sup]To the measure.... if Christ's Growuppedness was measured in a glass ours would have as much stuff in it as His did.
of the stature.... If Christ's Grownuppedness was held in an 8 oz glass we too would have an 8 oz glass. [/sup]

[sup]In case you missed the message we are discussing the FULLNESS OF CHRIST. <<<<< which is what you say we can't be. Now find something in this section to say it's talking about gnostics. The GNOSTICS were discussed about in 1 John. That's 40 years later than this letter was written. At this time the big debate was with the circumcision group. Go read Galatians. [/sup]


[sup]14 [/sup][sup][g][/sup]As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness [sup][h][/sup]in deceitful scheming; [sup]15 [/sup]but [sup][i][/sup]speaking the truth in love, [sup][j][/sup]we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, [sup]16 [/sup]from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together [sup][k][/sup]by what every joint supplies, according to the [sup][l][/sup]proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

And it's not difficult to see at all today with many who walk according to the vanity of their own mind, making false judgments and passing laws with no consideration of our Heavenly Father and His Christ.

OR saying everything in the Bible was written about gnostics.... evul gnostics..

Ah, you shouldn't have said that, for that's a false supposition. It's apparently you that has ignored the rest of what Paul was teaching in Ephesians 4, which places your quote from Eph.4:11-17 in the perspective it belongs. Might want to study the previous Eph.4:5-8 verses again. Coming into the unity of the Faith Paul was speaking is not about one becoming "Christ-like" nor their own Christ.

You can deny and redefine all day long, but it is not an argument, it's an accusation. Show me how 5-8 doesn't fit into what I showed the scenario to be and we can talk. Until then you are just offering contradicting views. Because quite frankly I can't connect the 5-8 with your anti gnostic position, and I'm a fantasy author so I have active imagination.

The old Gnostic false belief of one becoming their own Christ has everything... to do with this post's topic.

Maybe, but not with the verses I showed you, and not at the time Paul wrote these letters, they were a threat 20+ years later. Even history scoffs your position.

If you want to follow them, then go ahead. No one is stopping you. But you will never... achieve Christ status, not in this world, nor in the next.

If all you have is comments like this, to evade the exegetics and discussion, then you need not expect replies from me or most users probably.

Those in the pulpits preaching the lie that we can become 'Christ-like' ought to take a hard look at them,

To the fullness of Christ, yeah, we can be that and not be "christ like".
Walk in the light AS HE DOES, John said HE WAS THERE, but you say HE can't. So you contradict Paul and JOhn. Forgive me for considering you discredited and obsessed with gnostics. Maybe that was the lesson you had in Sunny School last week and you got Gnostic on the mind?

and see if they themselves have achieved Christ status yet. One might be surprised at how many Gnostics have crept into the pulpits today, and many brethren just swallow what they preach.

Sir, respectfully, you need to read slower and get more under your belt than "GNOSTICS" before you speak with such loud unabashed passion on this topic. :|

 

[veteran]

And where in Ephesians 4 do you see this imaginary strawman of gnostic theology becoming your own christ. And how does that over ride that you will be made as perfect as Christ, as full a cup and the same size cup as His spiritual maturity, from what it says to what you want it to say? You are talking out of some inane fear motivated comments to protect the world from the boogeyman gnostic you see everywhere. NOT letting scripture tell you what to see in it.

Those statements in bold pretty much rest my case of how Gnostic doctrine has been creeping into Christ's Church through history.

ANY association of any believer on Christ ever... becoming "as perfect as Christ" is... what Gnosticism is about.

Nor do I have to just stop with the ideas of 1st and 2nd century Gnosticism with that kind of reference, because their ideas originated from pagan ideas many centuries earlier! It all goes back to that old serpent's tempting in God's Garden, tempting with the idea that one can become their own God.