Christian Fiction, Sci fi,make believe...

[Renniks]

Good question, God can answer prayer providentially God could answer prayer internally in the person where the miraculous the the signs and wonders with things that don't happen in a way that could be explained other than being a miracle so you don't want to have doubtful things where people get confused as to what a miracle is And what a miracle is not.

So if God speaks to me internally in a way that is taylored for my mindset, that's not a miracle?
If God arranges things in such a way that it seems miraculous to me, that's not a miracle? It's still supernatural.
When God heals in a way that puzzles the doctor, that's not a miracle?
When God gives someone a vision although cessanists say he doesn't, that's not a miracle?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

So if God speaks to me internally in a way that is taylored for my mindset, that's not a miracle?
If God arranges things in such a way that it seems miraculous to me, that's not a miracle? It's still supernatural.
When God heals in a way that puzzles the doctor, that's not a miracle?
When God gives someone a vision although cessanists say he doesn't, that's not a miracle?

Hello Rennicks,

Again, Good Questions,
Men originally were created in God's image and likeness.Gen1:26
All men saved or unsaved have a God-given conscience that accuses or excuses them.Rom2:15
The fall damaged all of our faculties so unsaved men are alienated/ separated from the life of God.Eph2:12
The human spirit is spiritually dead and unable to commune with God.Isa59:2
At regeneration/ new birth, the Holy Spirit brings our dead Spirit to life.Eph2:1-4
Everything in life is planned and predestined. The outworking of that predestined plan is the providence of God.The good works we do are ordained by God.Eph2:10
The indwelling Spirit allows us to commune with God through the word of God written . This is all part of the normal Christian life. For a believer we live a supernatural life.
Miracles, signs and wonders that were done, we have in Scripture and can trust what is written because the Spirit allows us to understand them.

 

[Angelina]

What if they have, but it is actually much different than what you describe. What if I told you that many times when the Spirit is present, the result is not jumping up and down, shouting, making rhyming noises with arms raised while swaying back and forth, doing cartwheels, and rolling on the floor.

What if while alone in prayer the Spirit is so present that you know that your life itself is in His hands as you get convicted of remaining sin so much that you feel as if He might remove the very breath from your body, if not for His mercy and love being extended to you.
Have you ever been present when the word is preached in true power that the whole assembly is convicted and cannot even speak without prayerful reflection on that very word preached?

Perhaps that jumping up and down may happen for others and all glory to them but it has not been that way for me. All Pentecostal churches differ. Is it wrong to take hold of the anointing and power that comes from corporate prayer and worship? I think not....

Have you ever been present when the word is preached in true power that the whole assembly is convicted and cannot even speak without prayerful reflection on that very word preached?

The Holy Spirit does this more in that quite place when one shuts the door, more than he does in a corporate setting however, there are times when we are not aware of sin which has crept into our lives without us being aware and yes, he does convict us in a corporate setting. Also if we are stubborn about our sinful vices, he has a tendency to reveal that out in the congregation for our sakes...

 

[Angelina]

Some see Revelation as mostly fulfilled in the first century, with rev 19-22 still to come. The two witnesses would be symbols of the church, Jesus sent them out two by two to begin to evangeklize the hostile world, but that is a large topic in and of itself.

I agree that it is a large subject also was trying to point out that these "sign gifts" are still active in the world and there is no indication that they have ever been removed.

 

[Renniks]

For a believer we live a supernatural life.
Miracles, signs and wonders that were done, we have in Scripture and can trust what is written because the Spirit allows us to understand them.

I'm still not seeing a difference between sign miracles and regular miracles.
I think your theology leaves no room for miracles, though. If everything is Providence, there's no natural world, and everything is a miracle so it actually means nothing that happens is any more miraculous than anything else. If I murder someone, that's Providence in your system. It's predestined to happen and I'm just along for the ride.
But what scripture tells me is that many things happen by human decision, not by God causing them. And I can quench the Spirit as well as accept the Spirit.
This world is under the power of the ruler of the air, the prince of this world. The battle is real and God's involvement in the battle is miraculous.

 

[Enoch111]

I'm still not seeing a difference between sign miracles and regular miracles.

Sign miracles were given to AUTHENTICATE the Gospel and its divine origin, as the apostles and their companions traveled through spiritually hostile territory throughout the Roman empire. "God bearing them witness" is the key (and the same was true for Jesus of Nazareth). As the word "sign" implies, a sign is an indication from above.

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know... (Acts 2:22)

Regular miracles (daily) are performed in answer to prayers (or simply because God is gracious to the just and the unjust). For example, every time is sinner is born again and becomes a child of God, that is a miracle. Miracles of healing occur all the time through direct divine intervention.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I agree that it is a large subject also was trying to point out that these "sign gifts" are still active in the world and there is no indication that they have ever been removed.

I know you believe that is so, but there can be no "signs of the Apostles" here on earth when the Apostles are in heaven now.
No one on earth is an Apostle now.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I know you believe that is so, but there can be no "signs of the Apostles" here on earth when the Apostles are in heaven now.
No one on earth is an Apostle now.

Not according to God's Word...it's how God purposely designed His Church to operate.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I'm still not seeing a difference between sign miracles and regular miracles.
I think your theology leaves no room for miracles, though. If everything is Providence, there's no natural world, and everything is a miracle so it actually means nothing that happens is any more miraculous than anything else. If I murder someone, that's Providence in your system. It's predestined to happen and I'm just along for the ride.
But what scripture tells me is that many things happen by human decision, not by God causing them. And I can quench the Spirit as well as accept the Spirit.
This world is under the power of the ruler of the air, the prince of this world. The battle is real and God's involvement in the battle is miraculous.

To discuss these things accurately, the terms and definitions must follow the biblical usage.
A miracle is like a crippled, deformed limb, growing back to normal instantaneously, walking on water,feeding 5000, with a few loaves and fish, Ananais and Sapphira being struck dead on the spot.
Dead people being resurrected, those are miracles.

But what scripture tells me is that many things happen by human decision, not by God causing them.

God does not cause everything, but God is in control of everything that comes to pass.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Not according to God's Word...it's how God purposely designed His Church to operate.

The thing is, it is exactly according to Gods word; Here is what God says about His choice of Apostles;
13 And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom he would: and they came unto him.

14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,

15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:

16 And Simon he surnamed Peter;

17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:

18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,

19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into a house.

They were ordained by Jesus, to be with Him...
No one alive today has been with Jesus , heard him directly, saw Him resurrected, orheard him preach.
Because modern day false teachers teach the 5 fold heresy does not make it so.

Right away you are going to ask about the Apostle Paul, but scripture is clear about him also.

 

[Renniks]

To discuss these things accurately, the terms and definitions must follow the biblical usage.
A miracle is like a crippled, deformed limb, growing back to normal instantaneously, walking on water,feeding 5000, with a few loaves and fish, Ananais and Sapphira being struck dead on the spot.
Dead people being resurrected, those are miracles.

And you claim nothing like that has ever happened since the apostles? How would you know that?
You have to believe every believer who has claimed to witness miracles is a liar, including stuff like talking in other languages to spread the gospel, Christian missionaries being protected by angels, etc. Not buying it.
And anyway, why wouldn't any miracle that shows God's power be a sign?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Renniks,

And you claim nothing like that has ever happened since the apostles?

Church history teaches that the signs of the Apostles ceased. I do not have to claim anything, because scripture is clear why the signs were used.

How would you know that?

Because scripture teaches the purpose of the Apostles as foundational, not ongoing.

You have to believe every believer who has claimed to witness miracles is a liar,

Some do lie for money like the word of faith people.
Some make-believe it is still going on.
This thread is about false claims of sign gifts, not miracles.

including stuff like talking in other languages to spread the gospel,

That is not happening anywhere. I have spoken to missionaries who are actually there, in the jungle, bamboo houses, malaria,etc. they must learn the native language the old fashioned way.

Christian missionaries being protected by angels, etc. Not buying it.

You can believe what you want, Some people believe in the virgin mary appearing and giving messages, I do not.
Some suggest bleeding statues[ stigmata] I do not.
Some believe angels have given them a message.I do not.

I believe in the completed words of scripture. jn17:
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

 

[historyb]

Some see Revelation as mostly fulfilled in the first century

That would be me and it ain't easy holding that view on Christian forums because I see it all in the past

 

[Renniks]

Church history teaches that the signs of the Apostles ceased. I do not have to claim anything, because scripture is clear why the signs were used.

Church history? What does the Bible tell us?



Hebrew 2:4

God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will.

If the sign gifts were given to confirm apostolic authority, then why did non-apostles have the sign gifts?

And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and signs among the people (Acts 6:8).

And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did (Acts 8:6).

The Scripture nowhere makes a distinction between the sign gifts and the other gifts. If the sign gifts as tongues were to soon cease, why did the Apostle Paul write to the Corinthians: "Do not forbid to speak with tongues" (1 Corinthians 14:39)?

 

[Renniks]

You can believe what you want

No I believe what scripture says:
11 For He shall give His angels charge over you,
To keep you in all your ways.
12 In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.

 

[Angelina]

I know you believe that is so, but there can be no "signs of the Apostles" here on earth when the Apostles are in heaven now.
No one on earth is an Apostle now.

Then we are at cross roads here. You believe that the Apostolic signs and wonders are not functioning today because of your interpretation of the word. I believe that all gifts are functioning today because the Spirit of God dwells in the believer and he [the Holy Spirit] can release those gifts accordingly. I also believe this, based on experience. hmmm...

 

[historyb]

It is interesting to see one Sola Scripturaist accuse another Sola Scripturaist of not following the Bible because they believe gifts are for today. Makes me glad I am not one

 

[Heart2Soul]

It is interesting to see one Sola Scripturaist accuse another Sola Scripturaist of not following the Bible because they believe gifts are for today. Makes me glad I am not one

Huh? Another label...we are simply just Christians... brothers and sisters in Christ who make up the Body of Christ.
Sola Scripturalist? Seriously? I wonder who came up with that label.
I can see it now....in the future no one will be called Christians......they will be Gnostics, Cessationists, Futurists, Pre-Tribbers, Post-Tribbers, No-Tribbers....geez.

 

[historyb]

Huh? Another label...we are simply just Christians... brothers and sisters in Christ who make up the Body of Christ.
Sola Scripturalist? Seriously? I wonder who came up with that label.
I can see it now....in the future no one will be called Christians......they will be Gnostics, Cessationists, Futurists, Pre-Tribbers, Post-Tribbers, No-Tribbers....geez.

You guys go by Sola Scriptura not me and you guys are tearing each other apart (mostly the other side that don't believe the gifts still exist) because each side isn't going by the Bible alone enough. It is all rather silly. There are no plain jane Christians, we all have some kind of label. The ones who say the gifts don't exist are Reformed or Calvinist not just plain Christian. Believe me none of us act like brothers and sisters in Christ on this forum.

All that being said I was just marveling on the fact that the other side doesn't think your side is following the Bible alone enough.

 

[Enoch111]

That would be me and it ain't easy holding that view on Christian forums because I see it all in the past

Well if it is all in the past then we should already be in the New Heavens and the New Earth (wherein dwelleth righteousness). Therefore the burden of proof is now on to provide evidence that there is nothing but righteousness on earth.