Christian Fiction, Sci fi,make believe...

[historyb]

Well if it is all in the past then we should already be in the New Heavens and the New Earth (wherein dwelleth righteousness). Therefore the burden of proof is now on to provide evidence that there is nothing but righteousness on earth.

It's symbolic hence all in the past. It is not literal, The first part is for discipline and the second part it is for hope to those undergoing persecution in Ancient Rome

 

[Josho]

You guys go by Sola Scriptura not me and you guys are tearing each other apart (mostly the other side that don't believe the gifts still exist) because each side isn't going by the Bible alone enough. It is all rather silly. There are no plain jane Christians, we all have some kind of label. The ones who say the gifts don't exist are Reformed or Calvinist not just plain Christian. Believe me none of us act like brothers and sisters in Christ on this forum.

All that being said I was just marveling on the fact that the other side doesn't think your side is following the Bible alone enough.

There is a break off from Calvinism called "new Calvinism".

These so called "New Calvinists" are meant to believe in the continuation of the gifts.

New Calvinism - Wikipedia

 

[historyb]

There is a break off from Calvinism called "new Calvinism".

These so called "New Calvinists" are meant to believe in the continuation of the gifts.

New Calvinism - Wikipedia

Interesting

 

[Heart2Soul]

You guys go by Sola Scriptura not me and you guys are tearing each other apart (mostly the other side that don't believe the gifts still exist) because each side isn't going by the Bible alone enough. It is all rather silly. There are no plain jane Christians, we all have some kind of label. The ones who say the gifts don't exist are Reformed or Calvinist not just plain Christian. Believe me none of us act like brothers and sisters in Christ on this forum.

All that being said I was just marveling on the fact that the other side doesn't think your side is following the Bible alone enough.

You assume I go by scripture alone...well that would be incorrect...I have experienced it in my life. Prophesy (fulfilled), Angel visitation, healing, demons cast out...and I am not the only one...
Believe what you want....I seek Him for answers not the forum...unless I just want a discussion on something.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

It is interesting to see one Sola Scripturaist accuse another Sola Scripturaist of not following the Bible because they believe gifts are for today. Makes me glad I am not one

Fyi,
If a person believes in additional revelation apart from scripture, they are not sola scriptura.

 

[Enoch111]

It's symbolic hence all in the past. It is not literal...

That is incorrect. While there are some symbols in Revelation, it is generally to be taken its plain literal sense. And if all those prophecies have been fulfilled, then it stands to reason that we would be in the New Heavens and the New Earth at this time. Since that is patently not the case, suggesting that the events in Revelation have ALREADY been fulfilled are false.

Events in Revelation chapters 6-22 are all in the future (other than the first five seals, which correspond to the Olivet Discourse). The 6th and 7th seal events and everything else that follows lies in the future (perhaps not too far away).

 

[Joseph77]

suggesting that the events in Revelation have ALREADY been fulfilled are false.

Correct, that is over a thousand years old heresy/ false teaching/ propagated widely.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Then we are at cross roads here. You believe that the Apostolic signs and wonders are not functioning today because of your interpretation of the word. I believe that all gifts are functioning today because the Spirit of God dwells in the believer and he [the Holy Spirit] can release those gifts accordingly. I also believe this, based on experience. hmmm...

1]I believe the scriptures on this
2]Scripture teaches the Apostles were unique
3] Jesus taught they would be guided into all truth.
4] The Apostles taught we should listen to their word.
5]The historic believers did.
6]there were no additional Apostles in History
7]we are told to believe scripture, not people relating personal experiences

 

[Josho]

1]I believe the scriptures on this
2]Scripture teaches the Apostles were unique
3] Jesus taught they would be guided into all truth.
4] The Apostles taught we should listen to their word.
5]The historic believers did.
6]there were no additional Apostles in History
7]we are told to believe scripture, not people relating personal experiences

But the Apostles taught about the spiritual gifts to the non-apostles. So the spiritual gifts are meant to be for "all Christians" who will receive a spiritual gift, God has so much more to offer than just Salvation.

Otherwise what are the Epistles to you? Should the Epistles even be included in the Bible to a Cessationist's point of view?

And is the Book of Acts "just past history" to you?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

But the Apostles taught about the spiritual gifts to the non-apostles. So the spiritual gifts are for "all Christians" who will receive a spiritual gift, God has so much more to offer than just Salvation.

Otherwise what are the Epistles to you? Should the Epistles even be included in the Bible to a Cessationist's point of view?

The first century church had the Apostles and Prophets. Those gifts were manifested in those churches,people spoke in other languages, some were healed, as revelation was not complete.
Revelatory gifts ceased, service gifts continue.
1 tim, and titus regulate church structure, church life till the end, the last day.
Our main function is the gospel going worldwide.
We win In Jesus,that is what we preach and teach in all the world

 

[Angelina]

But the Apostles taught about the spiritual gifts to the non-apostles. So the spiritual gifts are meant to be for "all Christians" who will receive a spiritual gift, God has so much more to offer than just Salvation.

Otherwise what are the Epistles to you? Should the Epistles even be included in the Bible to a Cessationist's point of view?

And is the Book of Acts "just past history" to you?

A good point Josho. Thinking of when new believers read the bible. Will they also be reading it like a history book as they may do when reading the Old Testament? Lessons to be learned for sure but just words from a historical perspective? No Holy Spirit power or anointing???

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

There is a break off from Calvinism called "new Calvinism".

These so called "New Calvinists" are meant to believe in the continuation of the gifts.

New Calvinism - Wikipedia

This is rejected by Calvinists.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

A good point Josho. Thinking of when new believers read the bible. Will they also be reading it like a history book as they may do when reading the Old Testament? Lessons to be learned for sure but just words from a historical perspective? No Holy Spirit power or anointing???

The power is in order to live the Christian life,and preach the gospel.
I did not have to be on Noah's arc to know it happened.
I did not have to experience the Red Sea part during the Exodus.
The Spirit allows believers to receive all recorded events as true and accurate.

 

[Angelina]

The power is in order to live the Christian life,and preach the gospel.
I did not have to be on Noah's arc to know it happened.
I did not have to experience the Red Sea part during the Exodus.
The Spirit allows believers to receive all recorded events as true and accurate.

You will find that most believers who became believers during the times of Jesus and the Apostles, were shown some kind of sign or power from on high before they believed and with that, a personal testimony that comes from one who is saved.

There were only a few who believed Jesus by his word, one being the Roman centurion and also a group of gentiles that Peter spoke with. The rest were either healed, raised from the dead or some other divine intervention was made. Not even Thomas [one of the 12] believed until he saw Jesus hands and feet. John 20:25. How is a non believer supposed to accept the word of salvation without it's accompanying power from on high via the Holy Spirit?

 

[Josho]

You will find that most believers who became believers during the times of Jesus and the Apostles, were shown some kind of sign or power from on high before they believed and with that, a personal testimony that comes from one who is saved.

There were only a few who believed Jesus by his word, one being the Roman centurion and also a group of gentiles that Peter spoke with. The rest were either healed, raised from the dead or some other divine intervention was made. Not even Thomas [one of the 12] believed until he saw Jesus hands and feet. John 20:25. How is a non believer supposed to accept the word of salvation without it's accompanying power from on high via the Holy Spirit?

I agree, and it's probably part of the reason why there is a decline in Christianity in the west today, there's not enough Christians moving in the supernatural, we need Christians moving in the supernatural more, even if it's just the basics, otherwise people will go looking in other directions that aren't good.

@Anthony D'Arienzo

For much of the world, we need to prove to them that our God is a living powerful God. Even many Christians need these experiences, as some are unfortunately starting to doubt, turn their backs on Jesus and search in other places. So these signs, wonders and miracles are important even for Christians to experience, as it helps them to develop a solid strong faith in Jesus, that nobody can shake.

It shows the growing need that people need to see the "living Church, the Church that is awake and moving in the Holy Spirit" and not the "sleeping Church."

If the world sees a sleeping Church that does not believe or does not operate in the spiritual gifts today, they are going to search different religions, as they don't see much difference.

If you look up the stats, you will see Christianity has risen in many Eastern countries. Why is this? It's because of their faith, their openess to receive whatever the Lord Jesus has to offer them, they believe in the supernatural and they are hungry for more of it, they then see that their idols are dead, and that Jesus is Alive, because of the power of the Holy Spirit. Many of these people get dreams, visions from the Lord Jesus and turn to Jesus, they then move in the supernatural power from God, and many others turn to Jesus as a result.

We also see Nigeria, where 10s of millions and millions have turned to Jesus as a result of seeing the miraculous that God did through Reinhardt Bonkke, Daniel Kolenda and others. When a Jesus miracle preaching Christian evangelist comes to a third world country, people believe, miracles, signs and wonders happen, many are healed, the blind see, deaf ears are opened, many are delivered, and some are even raised from the dead through the power of God.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

You will find that most believers who became believers during the times of Jesus and the Apostles, were shown some kind of sign or power from on high before they believed and with that, a personal testimony that comes from one who is saved.

There were only a few who believed Jesus by his word, one being the Roman centurion and also a group of gentiles that Peter spoke with. The rest were either healed, raised from the dead or some other divine intervention was made. Not even Thomas [one of the 12] believed until he saw Jesus hands and feet. John 20:25. How is a non believer supposed to accept the word of salvation without it's accompanying power from on high via the Holy Spirit?

No one believes because of what they see.
They only believe when the Holy Spirit gives them a new heart.Ezk36:25-27.
Thousands saw Jesus,healings, and did not believe.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I agree, and it's probably part of the reason why there is a decline in Christianity in the west today, there's not enough Christians moving in the supernatural, we need Christians moving in the supernatural more, even if it's just the basics, otherwise people will go looking in other directions that aren't good.

@Anthony D'Arienzo

For much of the world, we need to prove to them that our God is a living powerful God. Even many Christians need these experiences, as some are unfortunately starting to doubt, turn their backs on Jesus and search in other places. So these signs, wonders and miracles are important even for Christians to experience, as it helps them to develop a solid strong faith in Jesus, that nobody can shake.

It shows the growing need that people need to see the "living Church, the Church that is awake and moving in the Holy Spirit" and not the "sleeping Church."

If the world sees a sleeping Church that does not believe or does not operate in the spiritual gifts today, they are going to search different religions, as they don't see much difference.

If you look up the stats, you will see Christianity has risen in many Eastern countries. Why is this? It's because of their faith, their openess to receive whatever the Lord Jesus has to offer them, they believe in the supernatural and they are hungry for more of it, they then see that their idols are dead, and that Jesus is Alive, because of the power of the Holy Spirit. Many of these people get dreams, visions from the Lord Jesus and turn to Jesus, they then move in the supernatural power from God, and many others turn to Jesus as a result.

We also see Nigeria, where 10s of millions and millions have turned to Jesus as a result of seeing the miraculous that God did through Reinhardt Bonkke, Daniel Kolenda and others. When a Jesus miracle preaching Christian evangelist comes to a third world country, people believe, miracles, signs and wonders happen, many are healed, the blind see, deaf ears are opened, many are delivered, and some are even raised from the dead through the power of God.

Completely false.
No one believes without a new heart.Faith comes by HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD.
these exaggerated claims of people like Bonnke,and others feed the error.
This made up idea of "moving" in the supernatural, miracles, gifts,visions is false. The Spirit indwelling Christians who preach and teach the word are used.
The power of God is the unseen work of the Spirit quickening the word that had already been confirmed by Apostolic sign gifts.

 

[Renniks]

This is rejected by Calvinists.

Which ones?

 

[Renniks]

Well if it is all in the past then we should already be in the New Heavens and the New Earth (wherein dwelleth righteousness). Therefore the burden of proof is now on to provide evidence that there is nothing but righteousness on earth.

Most preterist are partial. They don't believe every prophecy is fullfilled yet.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Fyi,
If a person believes in additional revelation apart from scripture, they are not sola scriptura.

If the Holy Spirit speaks to me apart from scripture it is for my benefit and no one else's....if He speaks to me a Word to share it will line up with scripture.