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Christian "gay Bashing"

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Unifique77, Oct 29, 2010.

  1. religusnut

    religusnut New Member

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    Read here what John the baptist says to the sinning Pharisees... He called them "vipers." And you say that Christians who say homosexuality is a sin are like the Pharisees? I think you got that turned around.
    I agree with that phrase becasue every time I have tried to enter into any type of dialogue here it was always tured around to mean what it did not mean and say what I did not say.
     
  2. S.T. Ranger

    S.T. Ranger Member

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    Hello religusnut (cool name, by the way), what you say is true. Interpretation of posts is a necessary skill when debating doctrine and belief.

    There will be some, like the Pharisees, who will seek to "catch" people in what they say, even as the Pharisees tried to catch Jesus in His words, that they might bring accusation against Him...they were never succesful in that, but resorted to false witnesses.

    One of the biggest aspects I see concerning the Pharisees is this: they really didn't listen to what Jesus had to say, but sought to make what He did say fit a pattern which they might present to others as in error, and in doing that, blinded themselves to what Jesus said.

    I think it applies even in our interaction as brothers and sisters in Christ, we sometimes fail to actually listen to what is being said. And I think that Christ, our chief example as to how we live, would have us to be better listeners. If we do that, we may see through the top layer of discussion to the foundational problems facing those we wish to minister to.

    I have as yet have not had the chance to dialogue with you, nor have read too many posts where you have expressed your beliefs, but I will try not to eisegete your statements.

    GTY
     
  3. S.T. Ranger

    S.T. Ranger Member

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    Hello Aspen, concerning quoting, here are a few more tips that might make it easier for you:

    When you reply, you will see the tag --> [quot name='aspen' timestamp='1289613504' post='91461') which I have altered so it won't function, but be visible.

    You will also see--> [/quote) (also altered) after the quote...if you put the first before what you want to wrap, and the second after what you want to wrap (quote), it will identify the speaker, as well as (hopefully) make it a little easier to distinguish the posters. It would look like this...

    [quot name='aspen' timestamp='1289613504' post='91461')
    Hello Aspen, concerning quoting, here are a few more tips that might make it easier for you:
    [/quote)

    ...when you are replying (as you quote), but will section the quote in the identifying quote box when posted.

    Hope that helps. I was happy when I learned this, myself, and just like to help others to understand it as I did.


    Only by talking can we understand where we stand. There is no reason those of opposing views cannot reason together in a civil manner, to the effect that understanding on both sides might come about.

    This particular issue has turned out to be a good example of opposing sides, both in the secular aspect (of which is represented by both anti and pro), and in the spiritual aspect (meaning Christians, both anti and pro, for even in the Church, there is division).

    As brothers, we stand in the spiritual camp, divided concerning this issue (though probably the division is not the great gulf that cannot be bridged), but...we should recognize that we are in the same camp concerning Christ. It is here that common ground can lead to an understanding that, hopefully, will edify both you and I, rather than divide us to the point where we are "enemies."

    Though we might disagree on interpretation and application, we should, as those who name the name of Christ, always keep in mind that we are in the same camp, salvation-wise.


    Not really. The constitution does not have anything to do with public schools teaching that any particular way of life is "acceptable."

    This is a sore spot for some, myself included. Should something that a vast majority disagree with be included in the public education program? This is where the issue of "rights" and free speech are decidedly blurred.

    I think that Americans have every right to live, work, play, and worship as they choose, but I do not see that teaching acceptance of homosexuality to small children is something the majority agrees with. In the world, Americans have the right to worship Satan, but the Church is not necessarily to be involved in the retention of that right, because the Church has to stand on the truth that they are in error and rebellion against God and His revealed word. I can protect their right as an American to worship as they choose, but I will aslo protest if they start teaching in public school that this form of worship is "okay," and that there are really no consequences to engaging in this form of worship.

    And, again, we have to separate the world from the Church. Concerning the world, the government does not have the right to teach anything they want. And while individually, churches have the right to teach whatever they want...the Church has no such liberty.

    We are bound by the guideline of God's word. Born-again believers will be brought to the truth, and when they are, they have the responsibility to distance themselves from error. That doesn't always mean that they must distance themselves from the people who are associated with the church, or fellowship involved, but, they do need to stand true to what God has revealed to them.




    Actually, on this we are in full agreement. Rejection of Christ is decided upon by the one that God is trying to lead to salvation through the ministry of teh Holy Spirit. Those who reject God's will concerning being in relationship with Himself...do indeed decide their eternal fate.


    This is true. As a former drug and alcohol abuser, I can relate to and (hopefully) counsel those who are in the throes of these vices. But my counsel to them will always be...there is a Savior that can change you and your personal desires (lusts), and give you a life more abundant.

    When I used, I was in torment, not liking myself and the way my life was. I praise God that as a child I had a grandfather that taught me there was a God, and this, I believe, was what kept me from committing suicide, which is something that I wished were an option for me...life was that bad.

    My need wasn't just to take away the symptoms (my lifestyle, which was the cause for my torment...I thought), but a relationship with the Lord. I turned to Him in the midst of my sin, and he has brought me to where I am today. I have not had to deal with the torment that I imposed on myself since then.

    Understand, and you know this, that not all that are picketing represent all Christians...even as not all who were Pharisees represented all Pharisees, or those who engaged in Judaism.

    We can't pick out a scripture and paint everyone with the same brush.

    The Pharisees, for example, are almost always seen in a bad light, and today, when someone wants to paint Christianity in a bad light, they use the Pharisees as an example. Those Pharisees that railed against Jesus, and used the law as a weapon against Him could be used as an example of some (not all, mind you) of those who picket today. But, because these Pharisees were reprimanded by the Lord, does not mean that Judaism itself was bad. After all, it was the "religion" (and that is what scripture calls Judaism) that God designed.

    The same thing is done today. There are those who picket who do not represent all Christians, nor Christianity, and these are made a public spectacle, and used as an example of how "Christians and Christianity do not 'really' live as Christ taught us."

    See what I mean?

    I don't. But, understand, you cannot overlook that in scripture, one of the instances of a society where homosexuality was rampant (an accepted societal norm)...they were militant.

    As a Christian, I see the potential for something progressing from "tolerable," to "accepted," to..."the norm."

    I personally do not want anything that is contrary to God's will to be accepted as the norm.

    Once, while on a mission trip, I was walking down the street in this foreign country, and as I passed a newspaper box, there on the front page was my President. And though I did not speak the language of that country, I could read it...SEX SCANDAL!

    I was embarrased for my country.

    Praise God that this world is not my home, for I will never be embarrased by the actions of my Lord, as I was by the actions of my president.

    Concerning my true country, it is inevitable that at times, I will be embarrased by the actions of those who are supposed to be my countrymen.

    Again, Christianity is not always represented by those in the media. And usually, the media presents Christianity in the worst possible light. Have you ever seen any media presentation of those who have turned to Christ, and left the homosexual lifestyle, and, have given testimony of deliverance from sin?

    I love talking with Mormons. I worked with one, once, and I can tell you, he was a good kid. But I didn't let his "goodness" stop me from witnessing to him. We parted on good terms, with no enmity or animosity, and that, I believe, is how we should deal with all those God puts in our paths.

    I did not talk to him of his error, but of mine, and the fact that all mankind has this one thing in common.




    And here is an example of what I said in a previous post. This man has a ministry that specifically deals with those in this group. Personally, I am glad that God has not led me to that. Sounds terrible, I know, but that is just how I feel about it, and I think a majority do, both Christian and non-Christian alike.

    But at the same time, the statement, "all the hurt the church has caused or failed to recognize in other people" is, as is the stereotype the media portrays by airing only negative aspects of Christian ministry in this area, unfair.

    You have, by generalizing the "church" as guilty, implied that all Christians behave in such manner toward homosexuality. You are doing exactly what some on the other side of the fence are doing, casting all in the same light.

    If I said, "All homosexuals have limp wrists and talk in a funny voice, making them easily recognizable," would that be true? Of course not.

    So for this man to say something like that is unfair to many in the Church.

    But he can't apologize for the Church. It isn't the Church that has caused hurt. Hitler called himself a Christian. Do we need someone to apologize for the Church for his actions? Not at all. Because his actions did not represent the Church or Christian doctrine, action, or application.



    I am not a protestant...I am a Christian. And I stand on the statement, "We are to share the knowledge of Christ."

    That cannot be separated from all that is entailed in the ministry of Christ, which for us individually, is the "new creature."

    Scripture is clear that the law being fulfilled by Christ has more meaning than just "Christ keeping the law." (paraphrase of what I think you are saying here, correct me if I have read that wrong).

    The clearest passage to understand this is Luke 24:13-49 (KJV), and note especially Luke 24:25-27; 32; 44-49 (KJV).

    The law, the revealed, written word of God, given to God's witness people, spoke of Messiah, and this Messiah did the people of God have hope in, and, trusting God in faith, believed that God would redeem them.

    Christ fulfilled the law, not only by keeping the law, but by fulfilling the promise of God.

    As the law pointed to Christ for redemption, even so, we fulfill the law by pointing men to Christ. Not rules and regulations, but the redemption of God, fulfilled in Christ.

    It is because these are the only ones homosexuals are usually exposed to.

    When I witness to atheists, I challenge them to "test their faith," and go to a local assembly. Most approach faith in a "scientific" manner, not believing, because they "cannot see" empirical evidence that faith in God is justified...which creates a catch-22 for the unbelieving.

    My challenge to the homosexual would be the same...go to a local fellowship, and test your faith.

    Sit under the preaching of God's word, and see if the subject of homosexuality is a major thrust of the services.

    Get to know those who attend, and see if all Christians have hateful attitudes.

    Hear God speak to your heart, and see if you are not brought to the place of repentance. Not for your sins, but for the sin which Jesus died for.

    But will they do that? Some will, and be saved, and what God does in their lives after that, well, that is between God and them.

    But the majority will not. They will, like the majority of the lost, prefer to keep their own prejudice against the Church, and continue in their lives, even as all who refuse to hear God's word.

    I am not saying here, before I am accused of it, that "going to Church" is the answer for everyone's problems, but, I will say, it is a good place for the lost to start.

    I encourage all who hold Christianity and the Church in derision to, TEST YOUR FAITH.


    Life without humor is like a lake without water.

    I agree, for the most part, as Stephen, one called and appointed to "wait tables," went on to be the first Christian martyr.

    But there is an appointment by God, through bestowed gifts, for some to focus on the preaching of the gospel, and the evangelism of the lost. And sometimes, it is needful to express the "cold, hard facts."

    I myself (being hardheaded in my rebellion) was saved by those facts.


    I know, Aspen.

    I think it is possible to get so caught up in a cause, as to sometimes be pushed into an entirely defensive position. Balance is needed in this issue, and we must keep all facets of the issue in mind.

    Because of the actions of some, this issue is presented in a bubble, pitting the vocal Christian outcry (which unfortunately has some hateful representatives that do not represent all Christians and Christian doctrine and application) against the vocal homosexuals.

    In the background are those who cannot be placed in either camp. You have the homosexual who would never think of walking in a parade, and you have the Christian that would never represent Christianity in a hateful manner.

    The ones in the foreground are, in my opinion, not representative of all who this issue concerns.

    (hope I made that clear, I do want to make this a short post)

    I think this is an unfair statement. How many homosexuals have actually gone to Church? The Church, and particularly the local assembly, is meant to be a place for sinners to come to that they might hear the word of God. My own fellowship has a great desire and joy when the lost visit. No-one is at the door asking which particular SINS they are guilty of, because we already understand the primary issue is their SIN...not their SINS.

    That is a blanket statement that I will have to disagree with, in part. While we are to live in a manner that presents the love bestowed upon us, we are not meant to "accept sinful actions."

    Those who are saved are called unto holiness, and as a Body, we are to discipline those who "say they are a brother" and are engaging in ways that are contrary to God's will.

    But again, we have to distinguish between the Church's relationship to the lost, and the inner relationship of it's members.




    Then I should turn away from those who are in danger? Yes, they do have the right, but, they also have the need to be warned. The man in the video expressed a basic truth in his defense: if your neighbors house was on fire, you would warn him. You can hear him say, "Their house is on fire."

    That is where he is coming from. Apparently he feels God has led him that particular ministry, and as I have said before, whether He has or not...God knoweth! I don't.

    I didn't really see where his approach was hateful or subject to reproach, but then, I didn't watch the whole video, and I didn't see the entire process from start to finish.

    If his ministry ended that day with hitting a homosexual over the head with his sign, then based upon my view of Christian behavior, I would have to see the ministry as not of God.

    But what I do think the end result of his ministry was, without doubt, that he definitely planted a seed in the minds of a few homosexuals that day.

    But you are not able to judge the outcome of a seed planted. You cannot say with certainty that someone there participating in the parade will not be led to Christ by the man's ministry.

    Why do we witness to anyone? Because that is what we do. We witness by preaching, loving, providing, and our lifestyles and actions (not meant to be comprehensive list, examples only). The Holy Spirit does the work of making the natural man understand spiritual truth, but God also sends the preachers.

    That is supposed to be you and I.

    Your approach is different than the man in the video. And that may be the approach that reaches some of the lost. But we cannot say that the man in the video is not reaching anybody either.



    I disagree. I think that most Christians are "undercover agents," and evangelism is one of the areas where the Church could use improvement...at least in the lives of the majority of the Body.

    Doctrinal skill is as lacking in many believers today as application is. I don't say this to be disparaging, but recognize it in my own life, first and foremost. But I hope to improve my understanding and application as I grow in Christ.

    I know, Aspen.




    Have enjoyed it, but, maybe we could look at some different issues, or focus on one or two focal points...this is getting a bit unmanageable in its length.

    GTY
     
  4. Anastacia

    Anastacia New Member

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    Yeah, Christians who call sin "sin," they should not be compared to the Pharisees! Nor should we be called unloving for not helping homosexuals get married. Homosexuals getting married will probably one day be legal in more states, if not all, but I'm not going to help it happen, I'm not going to help people sin. So many "Christians" are even saying that homosexual behavior between two people of the same sex is not wrong...as long as they love each other. If people are convinced that they aren't sinning when they do such things, then how will they confess of that sin and be saved?
     
  5. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Quote "I will always look out for the rights of all citizens of the USA, in the public arena. No one should have less rights than someone else unless they give their rights up by breaking the law."

    I will not comprise my beliefs as a Christian, not for anyone.

    I will not compromise my beliefs for anyone either; however, I will speak up for people who are not able to enjoy the same rights as other citizens. We can be Christians and believe in the constitution without compromise.

    Quote: " God's laws are for God's people. He does not force His laws on others, and neither should we. The law of God takes precedence over the law of the land for Christians - not for nonbelievers. If we lived in a Christian Theocracy like the people of the OT, then the externalized law of God would be applicable to all people."

    The Bible says not to be a part of our children's sin. I don't want to help any one sin.

    Since when is the World, our children? We are responsible for raising our children in the ways of God; we are not responsible for shaping the World into a place where our children will not sin.


    If you are going to take the position that we should not protect people's right to be homosexuals because what they are doing is sin - you have to believe homosexuality should be illegal. If you believe the sin of homosexuality should be illegal, all sins should be illegal in this country - so are you really advocating criminalizing all sin?


    Quote: "The Pharisee's enforced the Law, without love. As Christians we are supposed to be sharing the Love of Christ as a fulfillment of the Law. What this means is that we are supposed to share an internalized law to others in the form of love through service. Instead, many Christian continue to share the externalized law, just like the Pharisees, believing it alone is love. Unbelievers view Christians that all only sharing the law as people who just want to point fingers and demand them to follow an arcane set of rules because a God they do not believe in has created laws they do not believe in to control people He does not love. Letting people know that God is love first and then introducing the law promotes the freedom of the law, rather than bondage."

    Christians who call sin "sin", they get falsely accused of being like the Pharisees. This should not be. The Pharisees did not believe in Jesus. The Pharisees followed man-made rules.

    Wrong. The Pharisee's enforced the Law in a legalistic manner - without love.


    Christians who call sin "sin" and say that homosexuality is a sin, these Christians are not doing anything wrong, they are speaking the Truth, and they should not be compared to the Pharisees for doing so.

    I am calling homosexuality sin - I am not sure why everyone seems to be missing this point......
    People who enforce God's law without love are acting like Pharisees.

    Mark 7
    [sup]5[/sup] So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”

    [sup]6[/sup] He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

    “‘These people honor me with their lips,
    but their hearts are far from me.
    [sup]7[/sup] They worship me in vain;
    their teachings are merely human rules.’ [sup]8[/sup] You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”

    Jesus was right to quote Isaiah. The Pharisee's were advocating the letter of the law without the spirit of the law; the result is death. Any law that is not taught in love is man-made tradition - worthless before God. Also, the Pharisee's were being hypocrites - they were not able to follow the very laws that they were trying to enforce on others.


    Quote: "Christ calls us to serve the lowly and downtrodden, not convert the lowly and downtrodden before we serve them. I think a lot of us look at the sinners Jesus ministered to as grateful and meek and compliant - when probably many of them were proud, and obnoxious and could have even flaunted their sin. Jesus still loved them - they may have walked away from him like the rich man did, but He did not walk away from them. The only time Jesus told the disciples to walk away is when people were not receptive to the gospel - internalized law in the form of love and service. The sinners had to reject the gospel before the disciples moved on to serve others."

    I've heard other Christians say almost this exact same thing. But what people fail to realize, is that all were baptized with John's baptism of repentance, all except the teachers of the law and the Pharisees, that's what the Bible tells us.

    Who are "all the people"?

    John the baptist prepared the way for Jesus. If the Jews repented of their sins and were baptized, and this was a preparing of the way for Jesus.....then this tells us that they admitted sin.

    What about the people who were not baptized by John?

    So, I don't think you give a good account by saying many of them "were proud, and obnoxious and could have even flaunted their sin.."

    I am talking about the people that Jesus and the disciples preached to - they were not necessarily baptized by John

    Also, Jesus did tell people what sinning was, and he also told people to stop sinning.

    Does it mean that they did stop sinning? Did Jesus advocate for the criminalization of their sins?

    So we as Christians should continue to say homosexuality is sin, as well as tell what other sins there are.

    I've never stopped saying that homosexuality is a sin.

    Read here what John the baptist says to the sinning Pharisees... He called them "vipers." And you say that Christians who say homosexuality is a sin are like the Pharisees? I think you got that turned around.

    Wow. I guess you haven't read my posts at all.

    It really blows my mind that more than one person on this board has insisted on believing that I think homosexuality is not a sin. No matter haow many times I say it is, in fact, a sin. I could scream it from the mountain tops - "HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN!!!!" And the next response to my post will be "aspen, you are wrong when you call us all Pharisees just because we are preaching what the Bible says, that homosexuality is a sin".

    All I am saying is that homosexuals are protected under US law - just like the rest of us!! Sin is not always illegal. We do not live in a Christian Theocracy. If you really believe that homosexuals are not murdered; refused housing, employment, promotion, health coverage, etc because they are gay, you guys are simply refusing to see the facts. This is called discrimination - it needs to stop - even though all Christians know homosexuality is a sin.
     
  6. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    And so Jesus walks into the courtroom, walks over to the defense bench and sits down. Then satan walks in, walks over to the prosecution bench and sits down, looks over to Jesus with a sly look and his face and smiles.
    Then the Judge walks in and sits at His table. " Bring in the accused, yells the judge". and in walks a gay person, head bowed, looking ashamed, knowing his fate is sure.
    The judge looks over to Jesus and says to Him, " do you have anything to say"?, Jesus responds," Jes Judge, you know who I am, I am Jesus, I came to this earth, to do a work, and when that work was finished, I paid the price for this man and all men so that death no longer would have a hold on them, so Judge to me this man is not guilty of anything for the price has already being paid by me".

    Then the judge looks over to satan and asks him, " and what do you have to say". satam gets an evil look in his eye, then smiles at Jesus with a look of contempt and proceeds to speak." Yes judge, i have things to say, for I know that jesus claims to have paid the price for the sins of men, but it seems to me He is alone in this, for judge if you look behind me, here we have most of the world and a fair majority of todays so called christians, who all stand along side me in agreement that this man is evil, he is a sinner and deserves death, Jesus is but one man, i have the world on my side.

    And Jesus weeps.

    In His Love
     
  7. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    And yet, there is no mention at all about the majority of heterosexuals who do not even bother to get married, anymore. Many of them calling themselves Christian. Nor the majority of married couples who get divorced, many, multiple times. If we are going to criminalize homosexual marriage - why not heterosexuals that get divorced? God said we should not remarry - so why are we allowing this to happen in our country?


    Ahhh...right. I am just saying homosexuality is not a sin again........
     
  8. religusnut

    religusnut New Member

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    Yes we support them tooth and nail in their perversion. Then we criminalize those that do not support their behaviour as normal. They get the right to get married. If you are a Christian in the catering business, you either get outr of business of you be a part of their perversion because the first one you refuse you go to to jail or lose everything you worked your life for to them. If you are a Christian in the photography business yep either photograph their perversion or you got it. LAWSUIT. After all they get offended and their feelings hurt and they sue. Then what if you are a pastor and they want you to do the ceremony in your church you either bow down and allow this perversion in your church and you do the ceremony or else guess what? Lawsuit with criminal charges of DISCRIINATION. After all they are a protected class of people.

    Yes there are those that call evil good and good evil. Once they sink to homosexuality they have been given over to a reprobate mind and the list of perversions is endless.

    You say either make this sin legal or make all sin illegal. Drunkenness as bad as it is, is not at this level of perversion. Stealing last time I looked was illegal. This type of perversion should be prosecuted to the highest degree. It should be equated with murder in the court systems. After all murders are many times good people too.
     
  9. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    The problem is not the law the problem is the condition of mens hearts.
    Adding to the law there is no end of. Just look at the library of congress. What does it say about men? It says that men have a heart or precognition to love themselves more than others. So laws must be enacted to keep people from preying on one another, whether it be financially or morally. Look at Gods law 10 commandments, then Moses was instructed to write the law to govern the people, which is nothing more than enforcing by penalty the command to love one another as yourself, to do what is right in the eyes in God. The problem is not the law its the condition of mens hearts. I could care less whether it is legal or illegal by the foolishness of mens wisdom it will never address the problem. The battle is in mens hearts and minds not in mastering the broken flesh we are born into. Rom 7:24-25 I look forward to the day that we can set a match to the library of congress when all men will know the Lord and walk in His ways, thats freedom the law does not bring freedom Rom 8:1-2.
     
  10. Anastacia

    Anastacia New Member

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  11. Anastacia

    Anastacia New Member

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    But since not all are believers....we need the law for sinners. The Bible says the law is for sinners. Please read this passage.

    1 Timothy: 1:8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. [sup]9[/sup] We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, [sup]10[/sup] for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine [sup]11[/sup] that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
     
  12. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    I can't begin to tell you how so very wrong you are. Such an abstract concept is not from Gods Word or His Spirit. So I'll C/P the words of another.
    In fact to the learned such as Paul the opposite is true. Rom 8:1-2
    As I said I did not write the words below but they do make a point, I believe a better reply could be made but I'm not going to waste my time, or cast pearls before swine. I've had my fill for today.

    From the History
    Nehemiah 13.15-22

    ¨ What did Nehemiah warn the Jewish nobles about?

    ¨ What did Nehemiah tell the merchants to stop doing?

    ¨ Where the merchants Jews?

    ¨ What would he do if they continued selling on the Sabbath?

    ¨ What was the current government of that day?

    ¨ What right did Nehemiah have to tell the merchants not to sell their goods on the Sabbath, under this government?

    From the Literature

    Psm 2.1-7, 10-12

    ¨ What do the kings of the earth and the nations they rule try to do?

    ¨ What are these ‘chains’?

    ¨ In contrast, what are the kings of the earth to do?

    ¨ How can they do this?

    Psm 33.8

    ¨ What are all men to do?

    ¨ How can men show reverence for God?

    ¨ How can men obey God?

    From the Prophets

    Jonah 3.1-10

    ¨ What did Jonah tell the Ninevites? Why? (8, see also 1.2)

    ¨ What made their ways evil?

    ¨ Why could God send a Jewish preacher to this Assyrian city?

    From the Gospels

    Matt 14.3-5

    ¨ What was John's teaching against Herod?

    ¨ Why was Herod action wrong?

    Matt 24.14 (compare with Matt 28.19-20)

    ¨ What are the disciples to teach in all nations?

    From the History

    Acts 17.29-31

    ¨ What are all men everywhere commanded to do?

    ¨ Of what are they to repent?

    ¨ Why can God place this command on men?

    ¨ How does this passage show that God has a right to make laws that all men must obey?

    From the Epistles

    Rom 13.1-5

    ¨ From whom do the civil magistrates obtain their authority?

    ¨ What are civil magistrates to do? (see 12.19 and following)

    ¨ How does the civil magistrate avenge on God's behalf?

    ¨ What is the definition of wrong-doing to guide the magistrate?

    ¨ How is the civil magistrate to punish wrong doing?

    Phil 2.9-11

    ¨ What is every person ever created going to do?

    ¨ To whom, then, are all people subject?

    ¨ Does this tell us anything about the laws that Jesus gave through the prophets?

    1 Peter 2.13,14

    ¨ Why does Peter say that we are to submit ourselves to the authorities/civil magistrates?

    ¨ If they are sent by God, what are they sent to do?

    ¨ What is the wrong that they are to punish?
     
  13. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Yes we support them tooth and nail in their perversion.

    Don't listen to aspen talk about have he really believes homosexuality is a sin - he really supports homosexual behavior. Since perverted sex is the only thing homosexuals do all day and want all of us to do too, aspen really just wants the same thing by supporting their twisted agenda.

    Then we criminalize those that do not support their behaviour as normal.

    And aspen loves it! He really wants all Christians in jail anyway - so why not create laws against Christians trying to save homosexuals from Hell? I mean what can be more perfect - with all the Christians in jail, finally we can promote the perversions we've always wanted!


    They get the right to get married.

    Which is part of the master plan to ruin God's perfect institution on marriage; the only reason homosexuals want to get married for in the first place. Oh....ignore that man behind the curtain - the fact that we do not criminalize fornication or adultery - they didn't quite do the job of destroying marriage, but the homosexuals will finish it off!


    If you are a Christian in the catering business, you either get outr of business of you be a part of their perversion because the first one you refuse you go to to jail or lose everything you worked your life for to them.

    YES!!! Finally you get it!!! Aspen and the homosexuals will jail you and finally rule the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    If you are a Christian in the photography business yep either photograph their perversion or you got it. LAWSUIT.

    Once we realize that you will not participate in homosexual perversions, everything you do - from talking on the phone to stapling your paperwork will be a discrimination lawsuit waiting to be filed by all our liberal lawyers!!!! You will be in jail and broke before you can snap another picture!

    After all they get offended and their feelings hurt and they sue.

    Well, not really. I mean, why wait for you to actually discriminate? It is all a ploy anyway! You turn down one too many of their advances and BAM! Incarceration and poverty!

    Then what if you are a pastor and they want you to do the ceremony in your church you either bow down and allow this perversion in your church and you do the ceremony or else guess what? Lawsuit with criminal charges of DISCRIINATION. After all they are a protected class of people.

    Yep! But you are not going far enough!! They (with aspen's help) will make sure that we are more than a special class of people - why stop at equal rights!! We will move out of the public sector into your churches and even your bedrooms - I mean, if you are not open-minded enough to except us into your bedroom - LAWSUIT!!!

    Yes there are those that call evil good and good evil. Once they sink to homosexuality they have been given over to a reprobate mind and the list of perversions is endless.

    Absolutely! That is why I need to justify homosexuality to all Christians, everywhere!! Once the weak ones succumb to the lies of equal rights for homosexuals being a fair-minded thing to do; the real Christians will be easily spotted - and the lawsuits and the jail sentences can finally begin!!

    You say either make this sin legal or make all sin illegal. Drunkenness as bad as it is, is not at this level of perversion. Stealing last time I looked was illegal. This type of perversion should be prosecuted to the highest degree. It should be equated with murder in the court systems. After all murders are many times good people too.

    Well, forget about prosecuting people for those old fashion reasons. We need a space for all the Christians before they are executed for discrimination of homosexuals.

    Wow, I think I might have actually written a post so outrageous that religusnut may have to agree with it - I am speaking his language. What a scary world some people choose to live in. And the weirdest, twisted part is that they actually believe that they are presenting a message of Freedom in Christ. Well, I guess the Devil is smarter than most people give him credit for.....especially the people who believe he is satisfied will duping individuals into Hell.
     
  14. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Hello Aspen,

    I apologize that it took me a while to respond to your post. I have nothing against homosexuals, but I do stand against same-sex unions or same-sex marriages. They already have a right to marry, but they cannot marry someone of the same sex. Having visitations rights to a hospital should not be a problem so long as it is stated in writing the names of people who are allowed to visit them. They can also write a will and have their assets given to whomever they want. As I said, I am a single person myself, but everything I have will go to my brother.

    A homosexual who wants the same tax benefits as married couples do is not a good enough reason for them to allow same sex unions. As a single person, I also don't have the same tax benefits as married couples, and that should not matter. Eternal life in heaven is more important than any tax benefits on earth. As Christians, we are to not to be attach to anything in this world because this world is not our home. Our real home is in Heaven with God for we are children of God and heirs to His kingdom.

    In Christ,
    Selene
     
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  15. religusnut

    religusnut New Member

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    I am forever amazed at how stupid a liberal can be. Read the news. This sort of mess is already happening where these people have been given more rights and protection than here. There was an article just yesterday about a couple in England that were Christians that had been foster parents for years but could no longer be for fear that they would use their values in raising children that could possibly be homosexual. There was a photographer in either California or Colorado last year that was sued and put out of business for refusing to photograph one of those homosexual ceremonies like wedding what ever you call it. Many people have been financially destroyed for speaking against this perversion in Canada and that is where it is headed here. There is a difference between being in fear and being observant.
     
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  16. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    There was an article just yesterday about a couple in England that were Christians that had been foster parents for years but could no longer be for fear that they would use their values in raising children that could possibly be homosexual - religusnut


    -- I saw that article on the World Net Daily web site. It was linked from a British web site.
     
  17. religusnut

    religusnut New Member

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    Of course but to a Liberal that is Pro Homosexual that is ridicoulas and usually they will answer yes but that was in Europe..........

    If Liberals like that mess so much why don't they go toi Europe and live and stop ruing the US.
     
  18. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Why are you so angry, Religusnut? You have even resorted to name calling, you are so indignant....

    I have never advocated taking on the laws of Europe or Canada - neither place have freedom of speech guaranteed in their constitution. Both places have made it illegal to criticize homosexuals - I have never advocated this idea either. All I am advocating for is equal rights for all citizens under the constitution - including homosexuals.
     
  19. Martin W.

    Martin W. Active Member

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    I think everybody continues to miss the main point of the modern homosexual agenda. Yes , they have an agenda and it is working and many people are being suckered. Even the church.

    A clever way to mask this unnatural, unclean, unhealthy lifestyle is to call it "Gay".

    Now they want to legislate us to accept their agenda as "normal" but never once will they permit us to speak against the perversion.

    They preach tolerance but they will not practice tolerance .

    They worm their way into the church and would like to destroy the church.

    Good morals and the Church have always been obstacles to them and they are dismantling them.

    They already have the media and the world captive. Now they just need the church and marriage done their way.

    The God of Israel, His Son Jesus Christ, The Holy Spirit, and The Holy Angels are not the authors of this agenda.


    Be careful who influences you.

     
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  20. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    "Why are you so angry, Religusnut? You have even resorted to name calling, you are so indignant...." - aspen

    -- LOL Pot, meet Kettle.
    Aspen, a simple perusal of a number of your past posts in this thread show that applies just as well to you.



    "I have never advocated taking on the laws of Europe or Canada - neither place have freedom of speech guaranteed in their constitution. Both places have made it illegal to criticize homosexuals" - aspen

    -- Surely a man such as yourself can see that is EXACTLY what they are trying to do in the United States as well.
    Yet when Christians speak out against this you attack them as trying to take away the rights of homosexuals.



    "All I am advocating for is equal rights for all citizens under the constitution - including homosexuals." - aspen

    -- That is a grand and glorious statement. I would ask that you substitute the word "homosexuals" with the word "Christians' and advocate just as strongly.
    It isn't necessarily a Constitutional right just because a homosexual group says it is.
    But today, it is almost NEVER considered a Constitutional right for a Christian, regardless of what the Constitution actually says.


    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;.." -- US Constitution, First Amendment

    -- The "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" is being virtually ignored in America today. Christians are being told in the most discriminatory way that because of the non-existant "seperation of church and state" that they can't practice their faith.
    The books "Criminalization of Christianity" by Janet Folger and "America's War on Christianity" by Brad O'Leary give great deal into specific efforts by, among others, the homosexual community to not only silence but to criminalize the very practice of Christianity. The examples they give, especially in Janet Folger's book are very specific and and provide specific sources (links/articles/etc) so that the person can see for themselves that it isn't just an opinion.


    Surely you would acknowledge that the rights of Christians are being greatly curtailed in this country even as the rights of homosexuals are expanding.

    In the coming years the prejudice shown towards Christians will morph into persecution into actual criminalization. If you cannot see that then...
     
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