Christian Predeterminism Exposed

[ScottA]

Christ was never in God. He was the Word with God.

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jesus Christ was not in the Father, nor the Father in Him, until He was made a man in natural flesh and blood, just as we are in the Son and the Father when born of God.

Your revelation of men in and Christ in God before the world, is false but apparently a harmless error from John 17. And I still don't see any point in it brother, other than claiming a new revelation from God.

Aaaauh... You just said "Christ was never in God", then quoted a verse indicating He is. Here's a couple more:

Isaiah 7:14​

Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.​

Matthew 1:23​

“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”​

John 16:27​

for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God.​

Colossians 3:3​

For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.​

​

1 Corinthians 15:28​

Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.​

 

[Gilligan]

as these are the appointed times for all truth to be revealed, the time of the sounding of the seventh angel.

The 7th trump is not yet being blown. That will only be at the second coming of Jesus, and the resurrection with catching upward of His church into the air.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

But if one does not yet understand the difference...we have no business having this conversation..

Oh, it's been fun and interesting, but I just don't agree with you. And if you have nothing new to add, then you're right. The conversation can certainly be endless, but pointless. Just as much as what your revelation appears to be pointless.

If you do not follow what I am saying, just say so and I will stop.

For some reason brother, you are ignoring the fact that I perfectly understand what you say, but simply disagree with it, and have shown Scriptural reason why some points of it are false, and though I see no Scripture disproving it altogether, yet, then it is just unproven. Your efforts to do so by Scripture are incorrect, and so remains unprovable as well.

You now seem to try and imply I just don't 'get it', when the truth is I get it, but just don't accept it as true.

And so, before you stop, I really would like to know what the point of it is. What does your revelation do for you, or to you personally in this life, or in your manner of life, other than just to think and write about it? Now, if it's just for the fun of it, then that's fine too.

But somehow, I don't think when the 7th angel sounds, there will be revealed some useless and pointless knowledge of something, that the Bible doesn't even confirm as true.

 

[Gilligan]

Aaaauh... You just said "Christ was never in God", then quoted a verse indicating He is.

C'mon brother, you know I was speaking of before the world, since that is the context of the argument here. Christ was not in God before the world began, but with God. I also said the only time Christ began to be in the Father, was when coming into the world in the flesh.

Here's a couple more:

Isaiah 7:14​

Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.​

Matthew 1:23​

“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”​

John 16:27​

for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God.​

The Scriptures you give confirm Christ in the Father as a man in this world only.

Colossians 3:3​

For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.​

This is not saying Christ is now continuing in God after His resurrection from the dead, but only that we are in God with Christ in this life, even as Christ was in God the Father in the days of His flesh.

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jesus is speaking only of at that time, while on earth, that we may also be as He at that time on earth: in the Father, and the Father in us.

If Christ is in God, and can only continue in God, then He is not God.

​

1 Corinthians 15:28​

Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.​

This says all things will be subject to Christ, that may be all in all, not that Christ may be in God always.

Christ was not in God before the world began, nor after creation until He was made flesh in the world, nor is He now in God after His resurrection and return to heaven as the resurrected Word sitting with the Father in heaven, and certainly not as the Lamb with God sitting on their throne in New Jerusalem.

Your interpretation implies God is in God, which is not true and meaningless anyway. It's one of those imaginative theological philosophies that have no substance nor end to it.

Jesus Christ only while a man on earth, was in the Father, and the Father was in Him, and those in Christ are now on earth in the Son and the Father, and the Father and Son in them.

The resurrected saints will reign with Him on earth, not in Him. And God and the Lamb will dwell with man on the new earth, not man dwelling in God and the Lamb.

 

[ScottA]

Sorry, the world, she be real. So real, that what we do in this world determines where we will be forever, after this world is burnt and dissolved.



That's sounds neat, but I just read the words as written on paper, and take God at His word, as He has already said it.


No, this is the written word of God we are talking about, pertaining to all revelation and doctrine of truth, that He has revealed to us therein.

Anything not confirmed by Scripture is private interpretation only, that anyone can feel free to think and believe for themselves. But any such revelation contradicted by any Scripture, is heresy, and ought not be taught as revelation of God at all.

Your revelation in certain parts as you've given it, are contradicted by Scripture as I have shown, but the revelation as a whole is simply unproven, and does not at this time appear to lead to more ungodliness, and so no harm no foul. No one else has to agree with it. Others can if they want to. Sorry brother, but I'm not one of them.


Brother, all you're talking about here is future bodily resurrection of the church, and future full knowledge of all things, which you say also includes realizing we were in Christ ignorantly, and for no apparent purpose, before the world began.

In the meantime, we continue in this very real world of stars and stones, as well as knowing there is the very real wicked world of sinful men. And while in this world of stars and stones, though no more of the world made by the wicked, we are judged according to our deeds, whether good or evil, to continue forever in glory of God or shame of the devil.


No, not in this real world, but only in the real heaven of God, that continues to exist and will last forever with the new heaven and earth, that God will create after this world has passed away.

This created world is just as real as the next created world. This heaven and earth is created new and real, just as much as the next one. If this world is not real, then neither will be the next one, that will be created and will be having new Jeruslaem descending on it, wherein God will dwell with man.

The only unreality in this world, is the vain imaginations of sinful men.

Your lack of understanding of what is indeed confirmed in scripture, does not qualify anything except your own position as being "unproven" to you.

But you are not getting it, not understanding what the scriptures mean according to "as He is", but rather as you are. It is pointless to go on with all the finer points, when you have not comprehended the reality of things in the context of God rather than the context of this world. And really..."simply unproven?" That is the default line of atheist. As for God's people, historically the hard sayings of scripture were not "new revelations" as not from God, but rather a pattern of rejection by those who did not understand at first, nonetheless were mysteries from God revealed in the fulness of time.

Meanwhile, you may want to consider the fate of those who rejected what they did not understand--but thought they did.

Anyway, we should stop this brother against brother stuff.

 

[ScottA]

The 7th trump is not yet being blown. That will only be at the second coming of Jesus, and the resurrection with catching upward of His church into the air.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

Oh, it's been fun and interesting, but I just don't agree with you. And if you have nothing new to add, then you're right. The conversation can certainly be endless, but pointless. Just as much as what your revelation appears to be pointless.


For some reason brother, you are ignoring the fact that I perfectly understand what you say, but simply disagree with it, and have shown Scriptural reason why some points of it are false, and though I see no Scripture disproving it altogether, yet, then it is just unproven. Your efforts to do so by Scripture are incorrect, and so remains unprovable as well.

You now seem to try and imply I just don't 'get it', when the truth is I get it, but just don't accept it as true.

And so, before you stop, I really would like to know what the point of it is. What does your revelation do for you, or to you personally in this life, or in your manner of life, other than just to think and write about it? Now, if it's just for the fun of it, then that's fine too.

But somehow, I don't think when the 7th angel sounds, there will be revealed some useless and pointless knowledge of something, that the Bible doesn't even confirm as true.

Agreeing and disagreeing is for those who think they know. This has not been a debate of opinion, and I have not been comparing my opinion and what I think with what you may or may not agree with. Not at all.

 

[ScottA]

This is not saying Christ is now continuing in God after His resurrection from the dead, but only that we are in God with Christ in this life, even as Christ was in God the Father in the days of His flesh.

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jesus is speaking only of at that time, while on earth, that we may also be as He at that time on earth: in the Father, and the Father in us.

If Christ is in God, and can only continue in God, then He is not God.

This I should explain, as you do not seem to understand the meaning of the word "Christ" according to scripture. Christ himself defined it, saying "The spirit of the Lord is upon Me." The word means "anointed."

Thus, it is as I said, we (including Christ) are created in the form of "image" beings made from the dust of the earth (light and energy), spoken into being out of a void of nothing. Hence the use of the terms "image"...and "made manifest."

It is this "image" that was "before the foundation of the world" in God.

And again, though I have said nothing that is not confirmed in scripture, I will stop there, because you have yet to show that you even understand the nature of this world by context compared with that of God.

 

[Gilligan]

And really..."simply unproven?" That is the default line of atheist.

Anyway, we should stop this brother against brother stuff.

Until now, the brother brother stuff was only disagreement.

While your unproven revelation may be harmless, so far as godly living goes, the unwillingness to be corrected remains the same. The default line of failed arguments is petty accusations.

The only atheism I have is in not believing you were some god with God and the Word in the beginning. I've been skirting around with it so far, but that is the conclusion of what you are teaching.

Any angel or soul of man with God and the Word before the world began, is an uncreated god with God before creation, whether ignorantly or pointlessly or not, its at least the doctrinal conclusion.

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no god.

Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a god beside me? yea, there is no god; I know not any.

God never knew any uncreated god, angel, nor soul of man with Him, beside Him, nor in Him, before He created anything. So, this revelation of souls in Christ being with God before the world began, that were ignorant of being there, is also unbeknownst by God too.

 

[Gilligan]

Agreeing and disagreeing is for those who think they know. This has not been a debate of opinion, and I have not been comparing my opinion and what I think with what you may or may not agree with. Not at all.

We've both been giving Scriptures for our teaching. We both disagree on what the Scriptures are teaching, that we have turned to. There have been no opinions here, but only disagreement about your revelation and the scriptures you attempt to prove it by.

And once again, you contradict yourself, when you say you need no Scripture with your revelation, and yet you argue from Scripture to try and justify it. If you had been honest with yourself, then none of the disputes over Scripture would have occured, because you would simply say Scripture is not needed in the first place.

Nevertheless, I have shown by argument, that your revelation is not proven by Scripture. And I have acknowledged that as of yet, there is no verse of Scripture disproving it, and so we are back to it being a simple matter of choice, whether someone wants to believe it or not. I choose not to, and see no point in doing so, since it is harmless yet unprofitable.

 

[Gilligan]

This I should explain, as you do not seem to understand the meaning of the word "Christ" according to scripture. Christ himself defined it, saying "The spirit of the Lord is upon Me." The word means "anointed."

Thanks, I never knew that.

in the form of "image" beings made from the dust of the earth (light and energy),

This is just metaphysical stuff.

Thus, it is as I said, we (including Christ) are created in the form of "image" beings made from the dust of the earth (light and energy), spoken into being out of a void of nothing.

Ok, I've warned you about how you put things, and then you come back and try to say it isn't what you intended, and I've taken your word for it.

However, this is too far. You will definitely want to rephrase this, or be rejected with the JW's of preaching a created Christ with man in the beginning.

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Because you refuse to make difference between the eternal soul created in the image of God, which does not include Christ the Word and Maker of all things, and the mortal natural bodies of flesh created by Christ, then you are now teaching men and Christ were created in the image of God from nothing.

Your revelation is no longer harmless. You not only say men and women were created in Christ before the world began, but because the Word was made flesh, you now conclude Christ Himself was created with man before the world began.

There no created Christ at all. All such christs are falsely created by man, which is now the one to teach by your own personal revelation.

Before, I admitted I could not disprove your revelation, but now it is disproven by your own words. Your revelation of men and women created in Christ with God before the world began, including Jesus Christ, is false and another form of JW heresy.

 

[ScottA]

Until now, the brother brother stuff was only disagreement.

While your unproven revelation may be harmless, so far as godly living goes, the unwillingness to be corrected remains the same. The default line of failed arguments is petty accusations.

The only atheism I have is in not believing you were some god with God and the Word in the beginning. I've been skirting around with it so far, but that is the conclusion of what you are teaching.

Any angel or soul of man with God and the Word before the world began, is an uncreated god with God before creation, whether ignorantly or pointlessly or not, its at least the doctrinal conclusion.

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no god.

Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a god beside me? yea, there is no god; I know not any.

God never knew any uncreated god, angel, nor soul of man with Him, beside Him, nor in Him, before He created anything. So, this revelation of souls in Christ being with God before the world began, that were ignorant of being there, is also unbeknownst by God too.

We've both been giving Scriptures for our teaching. We both disagree on what the Scriptures are teaching, that we have turned to. There have been no opinions here, but only disagreement about your revelation and the scriptures you attempt to prove it by.

And once again, you contradict yourself, when you say you need no Scripture with your revelation, and yet you argue from Scripture to try and justify it. If you had been honest with yourself, then none of the disputes over Scripture would have occured, because you would simply say Scripture is not needed in the first place.

Nevertheless, I have shown by argument, that your revelation is not proven by Scripture. And I have acknowledged that as of yet, there is no verse of Scripture disproving it, and so we are back to it being a simple matter of choice, whether someone wants to believe it or not. I choose not to, and see no point in doing so, since it is harmless yet unprofitable.

You continue to misunderstand and even misquote me--not quoting at all, just ranting your opinion of me.

I could call you a liar for saying that I said I was "a god with God"--but you are simply wrong about what I said and do not understand. Therefore, I will again explain:

The scriptures say "before", just as they say "yesterday, today" and "in the age to come." Yet none of those terms are actually correct, but rather terms chosen to fit the context and times of human existence (base 7, not base 10). Do you understand this? Do you not understand that we are to renew our minds from thinking as men and the world, to being perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect? Do you think it is all the same? It's not. Therefore, I have explain--not according to what you are accustom to, but according to what you apparently are not accustom to, but according to God.​

​

So, you can either stop thinking like Nicodemus who first thought Jesus meant one would have to reenter their mother's womb in order to be born again--or--you can continue without understanding, not willing to step up and say, "for me, to live is Christ", die, and only awaken to the truth, having been of little service during these times.​

​

In either case, I did not say what you say I said. I was explaining rather, that from within the context of time, we should understand that by definition everything should instead be looked at as being "before the foundation of the world"--because time is an illusion, and does not actually exist with God in whom we all exist. Thus, no one is conceived in their mother's womb before being first conceived in the mind of God..."before the foundation of the world"...which is only perceived as existing on a timeline, which is simply the mechanism God has used to reveal all things that otherwise if looked at in book or written form, were pre-written. The point is, there can be nothing that is actually "before", because time is a created illusion that otherwise does not exist with God. This is the truth in the context of God which we are to aspire to in becoming perfect as He is perfect.​

 

[ScottA]

This is just metaphysical stuff.

No...it is what is written in the scriptures, and it is also scientifically proven: Matter (dust) is made up of light and energy.

 

[ScottA]

Ok, I've warned you about how you put things, and then you come back and try to say it isn't what you intended, and I've taken your word for it.

However, this is too far. You will definitely want to rephrase this, or be rejected with the JW's of preaching a created Christ with man in the beginning.

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Because you refuse to make difference between the eternal soul created in the image of God, which does not include Christ the Word and Maker of all things, and the mortal natural bodies of flesh created by Christ, then you are now teaching men and Christ were created in the image of God from nothing.

Your revelation is no longer harmless. You not only say men and women were created in Christ before the world began, but because the Word was made flesh, you now conclude Christ Himself was created with man before the world began.

There no created Christ at all. All such christs are falsely created by man, which is now the one to teach by your own personal revelation.

Before, I admitted I could not disprove your revelation, but now it is disproven by your own words. Your revelation of men and women created in Christ with God before the world began, including Jesus Christ, is false and another form of JW heresy.

Again...you are just not understanding.

Instead of [assuming] that I meant that Jesus was merely created--which I did not say, I eluded rather to the next step in understanding that the saying "I and the Father are One", is not a figure of speech as many believe, but rather literal with the understanding that all of creation is by nature "image." Which is not a contradiction of the scriptures, but the scriptures confirmed by reconciliation according to all truth.

In other words, I have explained what men have before only speculated about. But before you accuse me again--did you not think that the promise of being lead unto all truth would include factual confirmation? And before you think I am claiming more than I ought to claim--was it not foretold and confirmed at Pentecost that God pours out His spirit upon "all flesh"--not equally, but to "some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love?"

 

[Gilligan]

You continue to misunderstand and even misquote me--not quoting at all, just ranting your opinion of me.

For someone gone into the 3rd heaven, you sure are touchy. I have no opinion of you other than the one you give of yourself, that you still live godly in Christ Jesus. Everything else is revelation and doctrine only.

I could call you a liar for saying that I said I was "a god with God"

Your revelation of being in Christ with God before the beginning, is doctrinal definition of a god being beside God in the beginning.

The scriptures say "before", just as they say "yesterday, today" and "in the age to come." Yet none of those terms are actually correct, but rather terms chosen to fit the context and times of human existence (base 7, not base 10). Do you understand this? Do you not understand that we are to renew our minds from thinking as men and the world,​

We don't stop thinking as men, we cease to think as sinful men. We also don't cease thinking this world is real, and that we are no longer really still in this world.

to being perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect?

Perfect in purity of heart and cleanness of life. Not in being in and with Him from everlasting.

Do you think it is all the same? It's not. Therefore, I have explain--not according to what you are accustom to, but according to what you apparently are not accustom to, but according to God.​

Not accustomed to your revelation, that you say is from God.

Brother, I am now accustomed to your manner of teaching your revelation, but I will never be accustomed to accepting it, nor teaching it as you do. Your keys for unlocking mysteries are yours alone. Not mine. I don't agree they unlock the truth.

​

So, you can either stop thinking like Nicodemus​

I'm not trying to reenter my mother's womb, nor jump into your's.

You're the one confusing spirit and flesh, but mixing soul and bodies as both being created in the image of God. And especially not when saying the man Christ Jesus was also created as us before the world began.

"for me, to live is Christ", die, and only awaken to the truth, having been of little service during these times.​

This is a false accusation against my manner of life. I die daily, and yet I live, yet not I but Christ that liveth in me.

I will not die to reality for the sake of your new revelation.

​

In either case, I did not say what you say I said. I was explaining rather, that from within the context of time, we should understand that by definition everything should instead be looked at as being "before the foundation of the world"-​

Where only the Word was with God. No creation of angel or man or beast or planet or star.

Why do you think God must declare something obvious, that there was no god with Him and beside His Word in the beginning?

No god, no angel, no man was with the Word and God before the world began. You can understand the Word was with God in the beginning, but you weren't there with nor beside Him in Christ.

-because time is an illusion,​

When you transport in time, let me know. Prophecy to me the future, because frankly I don't care about the past.

and does not actually exist with God in whom we all exist.​

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

In this life now only. Not all will live and move and have being in Him forever. Some will have their being with eternal torment of not being in Him anymore at all.

Thus, no one is conceived in their mother's womb before being first conceived in the mind of God...​

Brother, your now playing with Anaxagoras' Universal Mind philosophy.

Foreknowing us, is not us being 'in His mind' as created already in Christ. He foreknows all them when created and come into the world, as well as our manner of life unto the end.

Him foreknowing us, does not mean we forebeing with Him.

"before the foundation of the world"...which is only perceived as existing on a timeline,​

It is a timeline, that began when God created the heaven and earth. We only go forward unto everlasting life or punishment.

Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Brother, you are interpreting every Scripture by your unproven revelation, so that the opposite is made in effect.

We reach forth unto those things that are ahead of us: those things that are yet before us, that have yet to come. We are not told to forget those things gone behind us, and then reach forth what was before us.

While we are returning to the purity of Christ, that changes not yesterday, today, and forever, we are not returning to be in Christ before the world began.

We wake up unto the righteousness of Christ, that is the same yesterday, today, and forever, but we are not waking up to being in Christ before the world began.

which is simply the mechanism God has used to reveal all things that otherwise if looked at in book or written form, were pre-written.

Once again. No pre-written. He foreknew what He would have written only.

If you are saying our names and lives were written in the mind of Christ, before the world began, then that is the predeterminism of being written in the Lamb's book of life before the world began.

We are not only acting out a prewritten script prewritten and made for us to do by the will of God. God sees what we would do, and foreknows it. He does not decide what we will do and prewrite it.

The point is, there can be nothing that is actually "before",

God and the Word was before and in the beginning. Now it looks like you are denying the everlasting to everlasting truth of God and the Word.

because time is a created illusion that otherwise does not exist with God. This is the truth in the context of God which we are to aspire to in becoming perfect as He is perfect.

No it isn't brother. We do not become perfect as He is perfect by denying reality, and thinking all is illusion only. We do so by cleansing ourselves spiritually and physically of all lust and godliness by the faith of Jesus, so that we 'really' are pure as He is pure, and 'really' are walking as He walked.

We do not think and imagine ourselves into being perfect, as we imagine God is perfect.

God the Word looking down from on high waited patiently until the perfect time to speak to Noah and Abram. He did so, and time moved on. If He had not done so at that exact time, then He would never do so. God has perfect timing in all things that He does with and in His creation. He does not need to go back in time and do what He should have done the first time.
God is perfect in knowledge and in timing.

 

[ScottA]

Your revelation of being in Christ with God before the beginning, is doctrinal definition of a god being beside God in the beginning.

You've done it again.

"Beside God" are your words. I said, "in God"...just as the scriptures do.

 

[ScottA]

For someone gone into the 3rd heaven, you sure are touchy. I have no opinion of you other than the one you give of yourself, that you still live godly in Christ Jesus. Everything else is revelation and doctrine only.

Your revelation of being in Christ with God before the beginning, is doctrinal definition of a god being beside God in the beginning.


We don't stop thinking as men, we cease to think as sinful men. We also don't cease thinking this world is real, and that we are no longer really still in this world.

Perfect in purity of heart and cleanness of life. Not in being in and with Him from everlasting.



Not accustomed to your revelation, that you say is from God.

Brother, I am now accustomed to your manner of teaching your revelation, but I will never be accustomed to accepting it, nor teaching it as you do. Your keys for unlocking mysteries are yours alone. Not mine. I don't agree they unlock the truth.



I'm not trying to reenter my mother's womb, nor jump into your's.

You're the one confusing spirit and flesh, but mixing soul and bodies as both being created in the image of God. And especially not when saying the man Christ Jesus was also created as us before the world began.

This is a false accusation against my manner of life. I die daily, and yet I live, yet not I but Christ that liveth in me.

I will not die to reality for the sake of your new revelation.


Where only the Word was with God. No creation of angel or man or beast or planet or star.

Why do you think God must declare something obvious, that there was no god with Him and beside His Word in the beginning?

No god, no angel, no man was with the Word and God before the world began. You can understand the Word was with God in the beginning, but you weren't there with nor beside Him in Christ.



When you transport in time, let me know. Prophecy to me the future, because frankly I don't care about the past.



For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

In this life now only. Not all will live and move and have being in Him forever. Some will have their being with eternal torment of not being in Him anymore at all.


Brother, your now playing with Anaxagoras' Universal Mind philosophy.

Foreknowing us, is not us being 'in His mind' as created already in Christ. He foreknows all them when created and come into the world, as well as our manner of life unto the end.

Him foreknowing us, does not mean we forebeing with Him.


It is a timeline, that began when God created the heaven and earth. We only go forward unto everlasting life or punishment.

Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Brother, you are interpreting every Scripture by your unproven revelation, so that the opposite is made in effect.

We reach forth unto those things that are ahead of us: those things that are yet before us, that have yet to come. We are not told to forget those things gone behind us, and then reach forth what was before us.

While we are returning to the purity of Christ, that changes not yesterday, today, and forever, we are not returning to be in Christ before the world began.

We wake up unto the righteousness of Christ, that is the same yesterday, today, and forever, but we are not waking up to being in Christ before the world began.





Once again. No pre-written. He foreknew what He would have written only.

If you are saying our names and lives were written in the mind of Christ, before the world began, then that is the predeterminism of being written in the Lamb's book of life before the world began.

We are not only acting out a prewritten script prewritten and made for us to do by the will of God. God sees what we would do, and foreknows it. He does not decide what we will do and prewrite it.


God and the Word was before and in the beginning. Now it looks like you are denying the everlasting to everlasting truth of God and the Word.



No it isn't brother. We do not become perfect as He is perfect by denying reality, and thinking all is illusion only. We do so by cleansing ourselves spiritually and physically of all lust and godliness by the faith of Jesus, so that we 'really' are pure as He is pure, and 'really' are walking as He walked.

We do not think and imagine ourselves into being perfect, as we imagine God is perfect.

God the Word looking down from on high waited patiently until the perfect time to speak to Noah and Abram. He did so, and time moved on. If He had not done so at that exact time, then He would never do so. God has perfect timing in all things that He does with and in His creation. He does not need to go back in time and do what He should have done the first time.
God is perfect in knowledge and in timing.

Okay, that's enough. You're not listening nor hearing--not asking [actually], but accusing.

 

[Gilligan]

Again...you are just not understanding.

Instead of [assuming] that I meant that Jesus was merely created--which I did not say, I eluded rather to the next step in understanding that the saying "I and the Father are One", is not a figure of speech as many believe, but rather literal with the understanding that all of creation is by nature "image."

The Word and the Father were one before the world began, while the Word was made flesh, after His resurrection, and in New Jerusalem on the new earth. if you are now using this for your revelation that all men were created in Christ in the beginning, then you are saying we were all one with Christ and God before the world began, and that being born again is being one with Him again, as before creation.

"Thus, it is as I said, we (including Christ) are created in the form of "image" beings made from the dust of the earth (light and energy), spoken into being out of a void of nothing."

There is no other reading for this, than that we including Christ are created and made from dust, spoken out of nothing.

You say this, in order to be consistent with your false revelation, that all men are created in Christ before the world began, and since Christ also became a man, He too, being a man, must be created with all men before the world began. It's akin to your Christ in God, and God is all in all, so that Christ the man was in Christ the Word.

You are saying that Christ knew this from a child, and so revealed new revelation of the Word that was the beginning. And you're acting like you also now know this for yourself, so that you now reveal new revelation of the Word that was in the beginning. You claim to have new revelation side by side with Scripture, so that new Scripture is being written by you on earth, even as it was by Jesus.

"spoken into being out of a void of nothing." This is straight JW, that says Christ was the Word spoken into being from nothing in the beginning. The Word was a god with God in the beginning.

The only difference between your revelation and theirs, is that there was not just one, but many in that one, indeed all men.

And because you believe you were spoken into being with Christ, then you believe your own word of prophecy is just as true side-by-side with Jesus.

I see now plainly, that this first new revelation of yours can spring-board you into many new future revelations. You will 'grow in knowledge' of being with the Word and with God in the beginning, as Jesus did, and so will begin to reveal more new truth, that you are yet ignorant of.

Your future revelations will be just as false as this first one, coming from the imagination of your own mind.

Sorry brother, but this revelation of yours is not harmless in the least. By your own words you are losing touch with reality, and playing more and more games with the prince and the power of the air. I've seen this before. Yours' is just another version of it.

I can only say, if you ever begin to think you are now living beyond this unreal world without time, so that it no longer matters what your body does in time on earth, whether good or evil, then you've lost it all. You become like extremist OSAS, who say they are no forever uncondemned, no matter what they are doing on the earth at this time.

 

[Gilligan]

You've done it again.

"Beside God" are your words. I said, "in God"...just as the scriptures do.

Not before the world began. With and beside God is the same thing.

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

God rebukes any who believe in any one being in or with God before the world began, other than the Word. All such are gods, that are no gods, whether angel or man.

There is no way doctrinally to be in Christ ever, and not be with God. That in itself is false revelation.

Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.

Brother, I am not saying you are an idolator, nor believe in gods, because I know you don't, but hold to the one true God and Jesus Christ only, but your teaching says it. Just as you teach we (including Christ) are created in the image of Christ from nothing, says Christ is created with man in the image of God from nothing.

If I were to quote your words in a thread, asking if man, including Christ, is created the same, then the moderators would shut it down, before anyone could respond. I gave you chance like other times to rephrase it, and you refused to. The reason is because you must be consistent with your revelation that all men, including the man Christ Jesus, are created in Christ in the image of God from nothing.

I'm not reporting you at all, because I don't do that. I happen to believe in free speech. However, brother, I am warning you, that this revelation road of yours is not harmless:

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

It is not possible to believe this world is not real, and continue for long to live in it, like it really matters in the long run.

 

[Davy]

Brother, I am not saying you are an idolator, nor believe in gods, because I know you don't, but hold to the one true God and Jesus Christ only, but your teaching says it. Just as you teach we (including Christ) are created in the image of Christ from nothing, says Christ is created with man in the image of God from nothing.

If I were to quote your words in a thread, asking if man, including Christ, is created the same, then the moderators would shut it down, before anyone could respond. I gave you chance like other times to rephrase it, and you refused to. The reason is because you must be consistent with your revelation that all men, including the man Christ Jesus, are created in Christ in the image of God from nothing.

Does that mean you... agree with that idea that Jesus Christ was CREATED?

Where in God's Word does it say that Jesus Christ was 'created'?

And I'll remind you, if you respond with Hebrews 2:7 it shows you have NOT actually understood that which Hebrew 2:9 goes along with it.

 

[Gilligan]

Does that mean you... agree with that idea that Jesus Christ was CREATED?

No, it means people can teach something not Scriptural, and end of saying things they don't realize is worse than before. In this case, it is plainly said that men, including Christ, are created. And yet if you you ask them Christ is created, they would deny it and say they don't mean that at all.

Another teach something in a manner of denying Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, and yet when asked, they say that is not their intent at all.

I simply understand that some epople can get so fervently caught up in their revelations and teaching, that they really don't even know what they are truly saying.

I'm charitable in that way. Unless someone plainly says something, then they didn't mean to teach it.

This revelation the man is offering teaches two things: there were souls as gods in Christ, with the Word side by side with God, and that all men, including Christ, are created in the beginning to be with God.

And yet, he denies it vehemently. And I agree his faith is true, that Jesus is both Lord and God, and there are no gods with the Word and God in the beginning. He just doesn't realize his revelation teaches it.

Where in God's Word does it say that Jesus Christ was 'created'?

And I'll remind you, if you respond with Hebrews 2:7 it shows you have NOT actually understood that which Hebrew 2:9 goes along with it.

Heb 2 is confirming the fact that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, with the same natural body as all men. Man is equal with angels spiritually by being created in the image of God, but are a little lower than the spiritual bodies of angels by being formed with natural flesh. But saved men and women will be honored in Christ above the angels, when resurrected from the dead in His likeness.

The main reason some talk like Christ is created, is because they don't make difference between spirit and flesh. Jesus was made flesh, like all men, but He was not created like all men spiritually in the image of God. Mans natural body is not created by the Spirit in the image of God, but simply from the dust of the earth. It is actually Christ who came in the image and likeness of men with mortal flesh and blood.

 

[Gilligan]

Okay, that's enough. You're not listening nor hearing--not asking [actually], but accusing.

I'm showing what your words really mean, and you don't want to hear it, much less reject it.

And so we conclude, that your revelation ends with men, including Christ, being created from nothing. If I were to quote your exact words in a thread title, the moderators would shut it down ASAP, forbidding anyone teach Jesus Christ is not God.

My admonition to you is to withdraw yourself from your revelation, or at least allow it to be corrected, which I have offered several times, so that it does not end up speaking of men, including Christ, are created.

No good in your walk with God can come of that. Neither can any man maintain good works, by thinking more and more the world is not real, because eventually we would then think more and more, that what we do in this life really doesn't matter.

Now, I can see how we begin to understand that this life is less and less important, while the next is more and more important, as we believe the day draws near to depart from this life.

For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

However, that does not at all mean this life is less and less real, and our manner of life is less and less important.

Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

The last day of this life is just as real and important as the first, in fact more so. We must remain established in the truth most of all in the last days of our life, in this very real and present world.