Christian Predeterminism Exposed

[robert derrick]

The point is like that of being in the womb. And what does one in the womb know but his mother's touch and voice?

Then that is in Christ at the time of being made flesh in the womb. I agree.

the point is not being born into the world, but out of the world.

Explain.

 

[Gilligan]

Now perhaps we are getting somewhere. Now you seem to have a grasp of what I am saying in accord with what is true of those in Christ in God.

What you have done by suggesting allegory or metaphor is not wrong, for God himself refers to man (who is made of the same elements of all of creation)...as an "image."

Your error is mixing the soul of man being created in God's image, and our bodies being that same as all creatures created of dust.

Which technically makes all of creation metaphor

Your error is making metaphor out of this life. We are judged by our works unto life or condemnation. Not metaphorically.

--by God whom is spirit, making it all spirit as well.

This is pagan spiritism. There is no spirit in trees, and Scamander is not a river god. Nor are they metaphors. Rocks are real, and can break bones that are real.

The error then is to call the image "fact"

The image of God is fact: spiritual being with power to choose good or evil, and be judged thereby forever.

as the scriptures also do by the prayer of Christ that all should be One.

All believers obedient to Christ are one in the Father and the Son, even as the Son and the Father are one.

Universal oneness is old pagan spiritism revived today in environmental new age theology.

I submit that this the fulfillment of "knowledge shall increase" and the result of being "lead unto all truth", as foretold of these times.

We were led into all truth of Scripture by study and rightly dividing the word of truth. At times the Spirit of truth givens inspriation and revation of His word, that Scripture will bear out and prove in time.

If not, it is only an unproven private interpretation of Scripture. And if any Scripture contradicts it, it is false interpretation, prophecy, doctrine, and revelation.

I will never believe in this life any teaching or revelation that Scripture does not plainly confirm. And so long as someone does not have one that leads to more ungodliness, then they are welcome to it for themselves.

But if any Scripture disproves it, then so will I condemn it as false.

 

[Gilligan]

I believe I just answered this. Looks like you are processing. Good.

I do have several questions though. How can you be in Christ without knowing Christ and having His word revealed to you? Is being in Christ before the world began, guarantee being with the Lamb on the new earth? Are all men in Christ before the world began?

 

[Gilligan]

Perhaps I expected too much. I included Isaiah 28:13 for this reason:

I will never agree with you that anyone's soul was created in Christ before the world began, except only in an allegory, not in deed and truth. Levi was not physically in the loins of Abraham nor did he pay tithes to anyone before he was born.

But I digress, for I knew this first by the Spirit and only now have clarified it by the scriptures.

You mean you have a revelation of your own that Scripture proves as true. I don't agree Scripture proves any such thing. No souls of man was in Christ with the Word and God before the foundation of the world.

I know what it is to get inspiration I really like, only to see it dashed down by a verse of the Bible that disproves it. We then must be humble enough to go back to the drawing board and at least adjust the revelation to fit with all Scripture.

As for the context and what you consider an error by the timing...there is no timing, except in the revelation of it. The context then, is either "before the foundation of the world", or during the revelation of it in times. I have told you the truth as "before", meaning in the context of God, while you seem to want to correct me according to "times" and the context of this world.

No man is created by God with the Word before the world began. All men are created the same as Adam in their own time: at the same time that come into the world a living soul.

You and I were created however many years ago in the lowest parts of the earth, and came into the world as babes from the womb, about 6 thousand years after Adam. We were not there in Christ before the world began, and we were not there in Adam after the world began.

Allegorically speaking we can say all men were in the loins of Adam, but not spiritually nor physically. And all men sinning like Adam today, are in the transgression of Adam. But they did not sin with Adam at the time Adam sinned.

Once God created the heaven and the earth, there is no time travel. We can only go forward, not backward. By revelation of Scripture, we can see backward and know the truth from the beginning. But we were not there, nor ever will be there. Even as we are not yet on the new earth, but will be by obedience to Jesus in this life unto the end of this life.

Even so, He who restrains, is also He who is taken out of the way and He who reveals.

The church with the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way of the last antichrist beast on earth, at the second coming of Jesus to earth in the air. And then with reprobation of no sense God gives a goose, those idiots, like Pharaoh and his armies, will actually gather around Armageddon to try and make war with the Lamb and His armies in the air.

 

[Gilligan]

Nah... Paul in Hebrews 7 WAS NOT GIVING AN ALLEGORY.

As I may say: Speaking in allegory as though, but not literally. Levi was not in Abraham's loins paying tithes to anyone. It's not possible for any loins to pay tithe, nor babes in the womb.

So don't listen to these ratchet jaws that try to tuck Christ's Divinity away under a rug just like many of today's CORRUPT New Testament versions try to do.

Whatever.

No soul was in Christ with the Word and with God before the world began, and no man is guaranteed to be with the Lamb on the new earth, before being born into this world.

Nor guaranteed in this world, except we add to our faith and do those things necessary not to fall.

Predeterminism is false. Unconditionally saved is false.

 

[Davy]

As I may say: Speaking in allegory as though, but not literally. Levi was not in Abraham's loins paying tithes to anyone. It's not possible for any loins to pay tithe, nor babes in the womb.

Apostle Paul is using contrast to compare Christ as Melchisedec with the Levitical priesthood which was not even born yet, and the fact that Abraham was blessed by Melchisedec, and even paid tithes to Melchisedec. Then after those contrasts, Paul then reveals that Melchisedec is about Lord Jesus Christ Who met Abraham PRIOR to His being born through flesh woman.

Understanding this is dependent upon the Bible student 'staying' with the Scripture flow. Those who just pick n' choose single verses out of it will never properly understand Paul here:

Heb 7:3-14
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

That ought to be an easy sign that this cannot be about any... flesh born man other than The Son of God. He only is without beginning of days nor end of life as The Son of God. And since "the Son of God" is directly mentioned, that should be plenty enough evidence that Paul is pointing to Christ Jesus.

4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

Paul is pointing to a time prior to the sons of Levi at this point. Abraham tithed to God The Father after He blessed Abram. So what's Abram doing tithing to Melchisedec when he met him back in Genesis? Paul is contrasting Melchisedec with God regarding tithes. Paul thus forces the question - would Abram really tithe to anyone besides God? So who really was this Melchisedec, since Abram tithed to him? That is the thought Paul wants us to ponder.

5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

Paul continues that thought of Abraham tithing to Melchisedec, since the sons of Levi weren't even born yet then. So how was it that Abraham tithed to Melchisedec since the Levitcal priesthood about tithes of the people to the priests didn't even exist yet?

7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

The less is blessed of the better is to contrast how Melchisedec blessed Abraham, yet Melchisedec as a priest had nothing to do with the sons of Levi and the Levitical priesthood simply because the sons of Levi were not even born yet then.

Then Paul gives the first clue that he is pointing to Christ as Melchisedec with that, "but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth". By that Paul is pointing to Melchisedec as STILL LIVING TODAY, pointing back to Hebrews 7:3.

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

There's Paul's question again about how could Melchisedec, who was not of the sons of Aaron, be a priest receiving tithes? and... what further need would there be that another priest should come after the order of Melchisedec, and ALSO NOT be from the order of Aaron, (which order is no more because of The New Covenant)?

That is the next clue that Paul is pointing to Jesus Christ as the Melchisedec who met Abraham.


12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
KJV

God's law for the Levites was that the priest line would come from the sons of the tribe of Levi, and tithes would be paid to them. But that was for the old covenant. Because now The New Covenant has come by the Blood of Jesus Christ, there is made a necessity for a change of the law. And even this "he of whom these things are spoken" was born of a different tribe than Levi, for Jesus Christ was born of the tribe of Judah (even though technically Mary's lineage was also in the tribe of Levi.)

Then that part in red above points DIRECTLY TO CHRIST JESUS as the Melchisedec of the Old Testament who met Abraham and offered him "bread and wine" (like what Jesus offered His Apostles at the last supper).

In other words, Lord Jesus Christ EXISTED prior to His being born through woman's womb. He was HIGH PRIEST AFTER THE ORDER OF MELCHISEDEC even back then, as He STILL is to this day. He is our KING OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, which is what the name Melchisedec means in the Hebrew. He also was KING even back in Abraham's day and eternally before also.

 

[n2thelight]

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

What does it mean to be "chosen"?

It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. This is not reincarnation, for it is appointed for each of us to go through this earth age, the flesh earth age, once and only once. We read; "...It is appointed unto men once to die [in the flesh], but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in.

"Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.

"Before the foundation of the world", [cosmos in the Greek, meaning world or earth age.] The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God], one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan. Then during that war, there were some who fought against Satan, and those who did, God calls "His Chosen". They took a stand, and were overcomers in that first earth age.

Have you ever wondered why you do the things that you do, at times. It's just like you have a destiny. You have always felt their is more to life, and this world, then what you have been taught. Paul addresses this in Romans 8:27. In verse twenty six it says that there are times in your life when the Holy Spirit makes intercession for you because you don't even know what to pray for.

"And he that searcheth the heart knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:27 These saints are "the set-aside ones", or "the chosen". God has a overall plan, and a purpose in that plan just for you. That purpose is to bring back His children to Him; after that overthrow, and in this earth age.

Why would God intercede in a person's life, without them even asking? When your free-will goes against God's purpose for your life, God will intercede. When Paul's "free will" was to destroy all Christians, God's will was to take this highly educated man, and use Paul as the instrument for Him. Paul used to same drive to destroy Christians, that he used later to convert people, after his conversion.

We read that the Lord said; "...For He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and Kings, and children of Israel:" Acts 9:15

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

"Predestined" means "from a prior time", or "required to do a certain thing" in the Greek text. You have a choice of loving God, or loving Satan. God will not interfere with your free will choice to chose Him or Satan. However, that person that proved himself during the overthrow of Satan, were "justified", or earned the right to be called "saints", from that first earth age.

Each soul comes from God, and enters an embryo at conception. This is why Jeremiah was a chosen one. "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou comest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet of nations." Jeremiah 1:5

"Sanctified" thee, is to "set aside, or apart for a purpose". Sins still have to be repented, and the price to pay for them still had to be made. To the predestined, and fore chosen, God can make life so miserable to those out of His will that they will repent. God has a perfect will, and God is always fair.

"And we know that all things work together for good, to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 This verse is directed to a certain people, with a condition attached. This applies to "them who are called according to His purpose." "His purpose" is called God's plan, and God's overall plan is the offering of Salvation to all. That plan includes the teaching of God's Word; to plant seeds to convict; to live our life for Him; and to go and speak where God leads you. God will use you as it pleases Him.

"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:29 God knew you, and what you were in that first earth age; and then [in that first earth age] God prearranged our destiny for this age. That destiny is to make us conform, or be like His Son, Jesus Christ. Though Jesus is the first fruits to overcome death, there are many that have that victory over death, through Christ's death and resurrection.

"Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called: He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified." Romans 8:30 "Justified" means "judged" in the Greek text; God judged them there in that first earth age, and that is why God can and does intercede in the chosen's ones lives. The justified are the priests of the Zadok in the millennium age of Ezekiel 40, for the word Zadok comes from the Hebrew word meaning "the just".

Certain of God's children stood against Satan in the first earth age, and those that did stand, and did not follow Satan; God judged [justified], and He "chose" them then to be used in His eternal plan. Through God's perfect plan, God "predestined", and "ordained" each of them to His purpose to be used in this flesh age. Each of these will also be used in the Millennium age as priests, or called the "Zadok".

When you become a Christian, and God has given you a working over, He is trying to wake you up. God is calling out a people, His people, the "Elect-chosen, and predestined" to stand against the Antichrist [Satan] in this final generation.

"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" Romans 8:31 "What things"? The things mentioned in verses 27-30. The knowledge that God has judged the overcomers, and chose them for the purpose of fulfilling His plan; then predestined those overcomers to a service, not only in this flesh age, but the millennium age to come. They will be the priests [Zadok] then.

 

[n2thelight]

God does not know who will choose Him

 

[ScottA]

Explain

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit."

We are first born of the flesh unto death, then if we are born (again) of the spirit we are born unto life.

 

[Gilligan]

Apostle Paul is using contrast to compare Christ as Melchisedec with the Levitical priesthood which was not even born yet, and the fact that Abraham was blessed by Melchisedec, and even paid tithes to Melchisedec.

True. And Levi allegorically is mentioned in order to show the preeminence of the Melchisedec priesthood over Aaron.

Then after those contrasts, Paul then reveals that Melchisedec is about Lord Jesus Christ Who met Abraham PRIOR to His being born through flesh woman.

True. He also spoke with Abraham to promise Him and Sarah Isaac, and enroute to Sodom and Gomorrah. He also wrestled with Jacob all night long.

Understanding this is dependent upon the Bible student 'staying' with the Scripture flow. Those who just pick n' choose single verses out of it will never properly understand Paul here:

Doctrine is not built upon one verse alone, except that verse cannot be read any other way, such as the Word was God. However, any interpretation that is contradict by one verse, then it is disproven once for all.

Heb 7:3-14
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

That ought to be an easy sign that this cannot be about any... flesh born man other than The Son of God. He only is without beginning of days nor end of life as The Son of God. And since "the Son of God" is directly mentioned, that should be plenty enough evidence that Paul is pointing to Christ Jesus.

True. The argument is not against the obvious, but against an error that souls of men were in Christ before the world began, like Levi in Abraham's loins, so that there were created souls with the Word and with God before the foundation of the world.

Levi is allegorical only in Abraham's loins, which can be metaphorically stated as being in Christ, but not being spiritually nor phsyically there with Christ before creation began. Adam was not with the Lord, nor in Christ, until being created and made a living soul in natural flesh.

That was 6 days after the beginning of creation.

Paul continues that thought of Abraham tithing to Melchisedec, since the sons of Levi weren't even born yet then. So how was it that Abraham tithed to Melchisedec since the Levitcal priesthood about tithes of the people to the priests didn't even exist yet?

7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

The less is blessed of the better is to contrast how Melchisedec blessed Abraham, yet Melchisedec as a priest had nothing to do with the sons of Levi and the Levitical priesthood simply because the sons of Levi were not even born yet then.

Then Paul gives the first clue that he is pointing to Christ as Melchisedec with that, "but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth". By that Paul is pointing to Melchisedec as STILL LIVING TODAY, pointing back to Hebrews 7:3.

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

There's Paul's question again about how could Melchisedec, who was not of the sons of Aaron, be a priest receiving tithes? and... what further need would there be that another priest should come after the order of Melchisedec, and ALSO NOT be from the order of Aaron, (which order is no more because of The New Covenant)?

That is the next clue that Paul is pointing to Jesus Christ as the Melchisedec who met Abraham.


12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
KJV

God's law for the Levites was that the priest line would come from the sons of the tribe of Levi, and tithes would be paid to them. But that was for the old covenant. Because now The New Covenant has come by the Blood of Jesus Christ, there is made a necessity for a change of the law. And even this "he of whom these things are spoken" was born of a different tribe than Levi, for Jesus Christ was born of the tribe of Judah (even though technically Mary's lineage was also in the tribe of Levi.)

Then that part in red above points DIRECTLY TO CHRIST JESUS as the Melchisedec of the Old Testament who met Abraham and offered him "bread and wine" (like what Jesus offered His Apostles at the last supper).

In other words, Lord Jesus Christ EXISTED prior to His being born through woman's womb. He was HIGH PRIEST AFTER THE ORDER OF MELCHISEDEC even back then, as He STILL is to this day. He is our KING OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, which is what the name Melchisedec means in the Hebrew. He also was KING even back in Abraham's day and eternally before also.

This is all good and well said in logical order of Scriptures.

 

[Gilligan]

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit."

We are first born of the flesh unto death, then if we are born (again) of the spirit we are born unto life.

I agree, that we are born again to be no more of the world, but not altogether out of the world.

I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

And so I wouldn't say born again out of the world, because we remain in the world until the death of the body. I a not in agreement with your phrasing of things, that imply this world and life is only an image kind of mirage and not real.

I also agree all flesh is naturally born to die, beginning with the first creatures of creation and the body of Adam. All flesh is still created of the dust of the earth with natural mortality.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit."

Man was never created to live immortally with flesh and blood on this earth, because no flesh is created with immortality and so cannot inherit eternal life. Our dead bodies must be resurrected in the likeness of Jesus Christ, that we may inherit His everlasting kingdom bodily.

Only the spirit is created to continue forever, first with angels, and then with souls of men.

Whether that is eternally blessed in Christ or forever condemned with shame, is dependent upon the obedience or rebellion of the angel and man.

 

[Gilligan]

I believe I just answered this. Looks like you are processing. Good.

I do have several questions though. How can you be in Christ without knowing Christ and having His word revealed to you? Is being in Christ before the world began guarrentee being with the Lamb in New Jerusalem? Are all souls of men in Christ before the world began?

 

[ScottA]

Your error is mixing the soul of man being created in God's image, and our bodies being that same as all creatures created of dust.



Your error is making metaphor out of this life. We are judged by our works unto life or condemnation. Not metaphorically.


This is pagan spiritism. There is no spirit in trees, and Scamander is not a river god. Nor are they metaphors. Rocks are real, and can break bones that are real.


The image of God is fact: spiritual being with power to choose good or evil, and be judged thereby forever.


All believers obedient to Christ are one in the Father and the Son, even as the Son and the Father are one.

Universal oneness is old pagan spiritism revived today in environmental new age theology.



We were led into all truth of Scripture by study and rightly dividing the word of truth. At times the Spirit of truth givens inspriation and revation of His word, that Scripture will bear out and prove in time.

If not, it is only an unproven private interpretation of Scripture. And if any Scripture contradicts it, it is false interpretation, prophecy, doctrine, and revelation.

I will never believe in this life any teaching or revelation that Scripture does not plainly confirm. And so long as someone does not have one that leads to more ungodliness, then they are welcome to it for themselves.

But if any Scripture disproves it, then so will I condemn it as false.

God is Spirit...and you accuse me of error because I have explained what He has made manifest according to His own likeness. Your accusation is against that same Spirit.

I do have several questions though. How can you be in Christ without knowing Christ and having His word revealed to you? Is being in Christ before the world began, guarantee being with the Lamb on the new earth? Are all men in Christ before the world began?

A child in the womb does not fully know its mother. Likewise those in Christ.

No, no guarantee. Light shown into darkness is made manifest in Christ who took all sin (evil) upon himself, putting sin to death in the flesh. Thus only the spirit given by God returns to Him. Isaiah 45:7

Yes, all in Christ before the foundation of the world. Meaning, all, even Christ, in God.

 

[ScottA]

I will never agree with you that anyone's soul was created in Christ before the world began, except only in an allegory, not in deed and truth. Levi was not physically in the loins of Abraham nor did he pay tithes to anyone before he was born.

You mean you have a revelation of your own that Scripture proves as true. I don't agree Scripture proves any such thing. No souls of man was in Christ with the Word and God before the foundation of the world.

I know what it is to get inspiration I really like, only to see it dashed down by a verse of the Bible that disproves it. We then must be humble enough to go back to the drawing board and at least adjust the revelation to fit with all Scripture.


No man is created by God with the Word before the world began. All men are created the same as Adam in their own time: at the same time that come into the world a living soul.

You and I were created however many years ago in the lowest parts of the earth, and came into the world as babes from the womb, about 6 thousand years after Adam. We were not there in Christ before the world began, and we were not there in Adam after the world began.

Allegorically speaking we can say all men were in the loins of Adam, but not spiritually nor physically. And all men sinning like Adam today, are in the transgression of Adam. But they did not sin with Adam at the time Adam sinned.

Once God created the heaven and the earth, there is no time travel. We can only go forward, not backward. By revelation of Scripture, we can see backward and know the truth from the beginning. But we were not there, nor ever will be there. Even as we are not yet on the new earth, but will be by obedience to Jesus in this life unto the end of this life.


The church with the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way of the last antichrist beast on earth, at the second coming of Jesus to earth in the air. And then with reprobation of no sense God gives a goose, those idiots, like Pharaoh and his armies, will actually gather around Armageddon to try and make war with the Lamb and His armies in the air.

You are under the wrong impression.

God is spirit. All who are born of his spirit are born of him who gave of himself. Ecclesiastes 12:7

 

[Gilligan]

God is Spirit...and you accuse me of error because I have explained what He has made manifest according to His own likeness. Your accusation is against that same Spirit.

You say the body of man is made in God's image. And you also call God's image, a mere image.

A child in the womb does not fully know its mother. Likewise those in Christ.

Now you expose the fallacy of your revelation. A babe does not know the mother, but everyone in Christ knows Christ and the word of God, and are doers thereof.

I still don't see the people of declaring you were in Christ before the world began, and yet knew nor did anything like a babe in the womb.

No, no guarantee.

Good. It's not predeterminism revelation.

Yes, all in Christ before the foundation of the world.

You can think you were and even teach it, if it makes you feel good. I wasn't and still see no point in even thinking so. So long as we continue with godliness in Christ today, then it's just another unproven revelation of man. No harm no foul.

Meaning, all, even Christ, in God.

Christ was never in God. He was the Word with God.

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jesus Christ was not in the Father, nor the Father in Him, until He was made a man in natural flesh and blood, just as we are in the Son and the Father when born of God.

Your revelation of men in and Christ in God before the world, is false but apparently a harmless error from John 17. And I still don't see any point in it brother, other than claiming a new revelation from God.

 

[Gilligan]

You are under the wrong impression.

God is spirit. All who are born of his spirit are born of him who gave of himself. Ecclesiastes 12:7

True. The spirit of man is given by God from heaven.

The natural mortal flesh of man is given by dust of the earth.

 

[ScottA]

Now you expose the fallacy of your revelation. A babe does not know the mother, but everyone in Christ knows Christ and the word of God, and are doers thereof.

I still don't see the people of declaring you were in Christ before the world began, and yet knew nor did anything like a babe in the womb.

"Everyone in Christ knows Christ and the word of God, and are doers thereof." because they are already born of God.

To the contrary, my example of a child not fully knowing its mother while still in the womb, is not after being born, but before--that is what I was referring to when speaking of people not fully knowing Christ before they are born again. The point is that, preceding the natural birth and also the spiritual birth, we do not fully know of our experience and preexistence in Christ, in the same way that a natural born babe does not fully know what occurred before being born. Nonetheless, unbeknownst to even a natural babe, they were formed beforehand. Likewise, those born of the spirit of God.

 

[ScottA]

Good. It's not predeterminism revelation.

The scriptures use the term of predestination, but that is simply world-speak for how to explain things according to how we might experience it in this world. It is simply a half-step term to children that are not yet up to understanding that nothing is actually predetermined, because time is a complete creation having no actual reality as it may appear from the worldly perspective, but is instead the reading and revelation of a book written in a Godly from of supernatural technicolor animation that unfolds and then passes away.

This is God we are talking about.

This is the reality that is eluded to in the scriptures, saying, "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is." This "as He is" reality of God--is not the would-be non-reality of this world. But if one does not yet understand the difference...we have no business having this conversation...and yet, even so, it is the truth of God from God, as these are the appointed times for all truth to be revealed, the time of the sounding of the seventh angel.

If you do not follow what I am saying, just say so and I will stop.

 

[Gilligan]

"Everyone in Christ knows Christ and the word of God, and are doers thereof." because they are already born of God.

True, Just as Adam was firstborn of God into the world, so all are babes in the world, and lightened by Christ coming into the world. But unlike Adam, after sinning we can now be born again of God in Christ.

To the contrary, my example of a child not fully knowing its mother while still in the womb, is not after being born, but before--

I know you meant in the womb of the mother, as well as weaning on the milk, until the age of knowledge.

that is what I was referring to when speaking of people not fully knowing Christ before they are born again.

That's because they were not yet born, nor come into the world. Christ the Word was not in God in the beginning, but with God. And no man was in Christ the Word before the world began.

You can believe you were in the womb of God before the world, if you wish, but there is no womb of Christ nor God for any man to be in. Unless of course you are comparing the bosom of the Father with the womb of the woman. I wouldn't do that either. It sounds too much like Mariology with 'sacred' womb.

The point is that, preceding the natural birth and also the spiritual birth, we do not fully know of our experience and preexistence in Christ,

That's because there is none. The only One preexisting creation, is the God and the Word. No creation of God preexists its' own creation by God, not the created angels and certainly not man.

This preexistence theology sounds too suspiciously like preexistent gods with God, where there was no god with God.

Once again, I don't see the point in playing around with such things.

in the same way that a natural born babe does not fully know what occurred before being born.

You say you do brother, at least in part, because you say you were there in Christ, but ignorantly. I still don't see the point of believing that. Since you don't use it as a supporting revelation for predetermined salvation for a few, guaranteeing dwelling on the new earth, then no harm no foul.

Nonetheless, unbeknownst to even a natural babe, they were formed beforehand.

For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

It's the same time. Scripture has no hint of the soul was wonderfully made by Christ and in Christ before the world, and then at some time after the first five days of creation covered in the womb.

 

[Gilligan]

The scriptures use the term of predestination, but that is simply world-speak for how to explain things according to how we might experience it in this world. It is simply a half-step term to children that are not yet up to understanding that nothing is actually predetermined

Actually brother, you're now swing too far to the other side. There is the predetermined will of God, that whosoever would believe Him, must be conformed to the image of His Son, if we are to be saved in the end, and resurrected from the dead in the likeness of His own resurrected body.

The manner and end of salvation is predetermined by God in the Lamb slain before the world:

Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

It's just that no soul is predetermined to be one of those few, and created that way differently from the many that don't, because God supposedly creates them to be lost and stay lost unto the end.

That is one of the worst and filthiest accusations against the God that is love, that the devil ever made, and his teachers ever taught.

, because time is a complete creation having no actual reality as it may appear from the worldly perspective,

Sorry, the world, she be real. So real, that what we do in this world determines where we will be forever, after this world is burnt and dissolved.

but is instead the reading and revelation of a book written in a Godly from of supernatural technicolor animation that unfolds and then passes away.

That's sounds neat, but I just read the words as written on paper, and take God at His word, as He has already said it.

This is God we are talking about.

No, this is the written word of God we are talking about, pertaining to all revelation and doctrine of truth, that He has revealed to us therein.

Anything not confirmed by Scripture is private interpretation only, that anyone can feel free to think and believe for themselves. But any such revelation contradicted by any Scripture, is heresy, and ought not be taught as revelation of God at all.

Your revelation in certain parts as you've given it, are contradicted by Scripture as I have shown, but the revelation as a whole is simply unproven, and does not at this time appear to lead to more ungodliness, and so no harm no foul. No one else has to agree with it. Others can if they want to. Sorry brother, but I'm not one of them.

This is the reality that is eluded to in the scriptures, saying, "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."

Brother, all you're talking about here is future bodily resurrection of the church, and future full knowledge of all things, which you say also includes realizing we were in Christ ignorantly, and for no apparent purpose, before the world began.

In the meantime, we continue in this very real world of stars and stones, as well as knowing there is the very real wicked world of sinful men. And while in this world of stars and stones, though no more of the world made by the wicked, we are judged according to our deeds, whether good or evil, to continue forever in glory of God or shame of the devil.

This "as He is" reality of God--is not the would-be non-reality of this world.

No, not in this real world, but only in the real heaven of God, that continues to exist and will last forever with the new heaven and earth, that God will create after this world has passed away.

This created world is just as real as the next created world. This heaven and earth is created new and real, just as much as the next one. If this world is not real, then neither will be the next one, that will be created and will be having new Jeruslaem descending on it, wherein God will dwell with man.

The only unreality in this world, is the vain imaginations of sinful men.