Christianity as a Closed System

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St. SteVen

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Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world. Else his servants would fight.

Jesus says that the kingdom of God resides with-in...
Initially thought this was a rebuttal of what I had written. (nope) Thanks.

In our hearts ("resides with-in") means I have it now, Amen
 

MatthewG

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Initially thought this was a rebuttal of what I had written. (nope) Thanks.

In our hearts ("resides with-in") means I have it now, Amen
It’s a spiritual principle, in my opinion.

People enter into the Kingdom by, faith, in Jesus whom God raised from the dead.

It’s then a choice between whom does a person choose to serve.

Choose to serve and love God, focused on heavenly things; or Choose to serve self here on earth, focused on earthly things.
 
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Aunty Jane

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the kingdom of heaven resides in the hearts of believers.
Actually the Bible disagrees with you Matthew....
The kingdom of God is an actual ruling body set up by God to bring redeemed mankind back to him....eliminating sin forever.
Daniel foretold a march of world powers beginning with Babylon and ending with the current world powers.....It is in the days of the present world rulership where Daniel prophesied....
“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever". (Daniel 2:44)

This Kingdom "comes" with a crushing blow to all corrupt worldly governments.....it will end the devil's rulership through them, and re-establish God's rule over mankind, under a proven King and his associate rulers.
The hope found in Christ is that one day after leaving this life you go on to be with God in the heavenly kingdom of Jerusalem.
That is the hope of Christ's elect, but not the hope of all Christians. Those who go to heaven are to be "kings and priests with Christ" as Ruler and High Priest. (Rev 20:6) All those who have the "heavenly calling" (Heb 3:1) are chosen by God, so there is no jealousy on the part of those not chosen because they are hand picked to be the best rulers mankind has ever had. They will rule with Jesus for a thousand years, bringing all mankind back to where we started...in sinless perfection in paradise on earth.
Earth was never a training ground for heaven.....paradise on earth is where God put us.

Humans were supposed to have everlasting life gifted to them, but only if they obeyed the commands of their Sovereign....and they could have kept on living indefinitely as long as they did not abuse their free will......that was the cause of all our troubles right at the beginning....the devil tempted the woman to disobey God by lying to her, thus separating her from her Creator.....she in turn tempted the man (as the devil had planned) and now the whole human race would be separated from God by sin, and he could use them to do his bidding....he would be their god.
Jehovah handed them over to the god they chose to obey, and we have been living in the most important object lesson in human history ever since....showing God who we truly are at heart.

Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world. Else his servants would fight.
Jesus says that the kingdom of God resides with-in, so thus it must be on the heart, and mind of the believer when they are putting their faith and trust God above all others and having love for Him, first. And loving others.
He didn't say what most people assume that he said....
Look at the way this verse is translated in various translations....
Luke 17:21

"the Kingdom of God is within you."
"the kingdom of God is among you"
"the kingdom of God is in your midst."
"God's kingdom is here with you."


What do you see there...? How can we know what the Bible writer meant?
First of all who is Jesus talking to?
The context shows that Jesus addressed those words to the antagonistic Jewish Pharisees. They had their own expectations regarding the Messiah and his Kingdom. For them, the Messiah would come “with the clouds of the heavens” as a glorious King, to deliver the Jews from the Romans and restore the kingdom of Israel. (Daniel 7:13-14) Jesus, however, pointed out their error by telling them: ““The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed” Then he added the words: “Look! the kingdom of God is in your midst.” (Luke 17:20-21)
Jesus taught the truth from the Hebrew scriptures and performed miracles that clearly identified him as the promised King of that Kingdom, but the Pharisees, lacking clean hearts and genuine faith, simply became more opposed. So he laid the facts before them: The Kingdom, represented by its designated King, was....'in their midst'....'walking among them'..... He did not say that the Kingdom of God was within those wicked hearts. Jesus and his disciples were standing before them. “God’s kingdom is here with you,” he said. (Contemporary English Version)

By his teaching and by the miracles he performed, Jesus made clear that the Kingdom is more than a person’s acceptance of God and obedience to him. It involves rulership, judgment, and the promise of everlasting life.
It’s a lot about faith and trusting God in which you are given the spirit by and through faith in Christ; and you are able to ask God to help you in this life while storing treasures in heaven : which is significant of looking of having a devoted life to God and to live by and walk not just by faith but also by the Spirit.
We have to be dedicated to the right God Matthew....there is a pretender in the world....whom Jesus said was the author of a counterfeit "Christianity" that would deceive people and he has been doing so now for almost 2000 years. He is the god of that religious system....and its all based on lies. God is not a God of division and disunity.....he is a God of peace and love...and this would identify his true disciples.....they will not be 'part of this world' and its corrupt rulership....its greedy commercialism....or its false religion.

They would be hated for doing what Christ told them to do....(John 15:18-21)
 
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MatthewG

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You know you may freely believe how you desire, it’s good that we differ on our views in my opinion @Aunty Jane.

If you were curious about how do I view what happens when you die? To me when a person dies, that judged they’re quickly on the spot leaving their body, and are suited into their new spiritual body given by the Father of lights, and there is a spiritual body of condemnation, and a spiritual body of life (what a believer builds on the Chief cornerstone in this life).

The Father has set up a society of those who are living in the Kingdom where God resides, and those who are living on the outside of the kingdom of the heavenly Jerusalem.

That is what I believe the Bible suggest due to Jesus Christ already having the victory now today, but most do not have total trust or faith in that he has conquered over sin, death, hell, Satan and his angels, the false prophet and the beast already.

It really does bring freedom if people desire to seek out God in faith and ask him to help you and show you what is true or not, if the person who is reading this is someone who is a seeker of truth my encouragement is to go, and seek.

With all that being said if you are part of the heavenly citizenship by faith are you not a child of God, or son or daughter of God, in which one day you will also be able to go in because of having faith and love for God and others relying completely on Jesus and his finished works and raising again from the dead.

There is no doubt in my mind all the earthly will be gone. Idk about pets in heaven or what it is like completely but it’s a better place than here, even for unbelievers though they suffer some type of loss; and most so if they go through the lake of fire to know whom Christ was (only a hope that is had).
 
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Aunty Jane

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You know you may freely believe how you desire, it’s good that we differ on our views in my opinion @Aunty Jane.
Do you think God approves of dissent and disagreement among his worshippers Matthew?..... in view of Paul's words at 1 Cor 1:10?
"I appeal to you, dear brothers and sisters, by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, to live in harmony with each other. Let there be no divisions in the church. Rather, be of one mind, united in thought and purpose." (NLT)
If you were curious about how do I view what happens when you die? To me when a person dies, that judged they’re quickly on the spot leaving their body, and are suited into their new spiritual body given by the Father of lights, and there is a spiritual body of condemnation, and a spiritual body of life (what a believer builds on the Chief cornerstone in this life).
You have accepted the teaching of an immortal soul then.....? This is not a Bible teaching at all. The ancient Jews did not have any belief in immediate life after death....their hope was in a future resurrection....something completely different. Resurrection is a restoration of life...not a continuation of it in another form. It is the dead who are resurrected by Jesus. (John 5:28-29) called out of their graves, so the dead are actually dead, not alive somewhere else.....the resurrection was something that he said was yet future.

Those chosen to rule with Christ were to be "kings and priests" in God's heavenly Kingdom, but not here on earth. The elect have a special assignment and each one has a token in advance of their choosing so that so that God's spirit implants a hope in them to be with their Lord in heaven. Those without the "heavenly calling" also put their faith in Christ and his chosen ones, because they will be their subjects here on this earth, cleansed of all wickedness. (Rev 21:2-4)
The Father has set up a society of those who are living in the Kingdom where God resides, and those who are living on the outside of the kingdom of the heavenly Jerusalem.

That is what I believe the Bible suggest due to Jesus Christ already having the victory now today, but most do not have total trust or faith in that he has conquered over sin, death, hell, Satan and his angels, the false prophet and the beast already.
The conquest is complete Matthew, but the benefits have not yet reached us....we are still living in the "last days" of this world system. Daniel called it "the time of the end", (Daniel 12:4, 9-10) where the need for God's Kingdom to "come' has never been greater. Life as we know it will just keep getting worse until mankind is subjected to a totalitarian, single world government who is to rule "one hour with the wild beast"....that is one hour as God counts time, not us. We are 6,000 years away from the garden of Eden and still we wait for the blessings of the kingdom to come to this earth and to redeemed mankind who are to inhabit it forever.
It really does bring freedom if people desire to seek out God in faith and ask him to help you and show you what is true or not, if the person who is reading this is someone who is a seeker of truth my encouragement is to go, and seek.
Me too, but honesty of heart is required....not stubbornly insisting on our own interpretation of things.....God has never left his people without shepherds. We have to find those shepherds and come under their care. They are not all over the place in their beliefs, but united and in peace, despite the woes of man's conflicts. We are to be no part of any of that.
With all that being said if you are part of the heavenly citizenship by faith are you not a child of God, or son or daughter of God, in which one day you will also be able to go in because of having faith and love for God and others relying completely on Jesus and his finished works and raising again from the dead.
We are all God's children....no matter if our hope is heavenly or earthly.....we all worship the same God as Jesus did....yet Christendom does not know him.
There is no doubt in my mind all the earthly will be gone. Idk about pets in heaven or what it is like completely but it’s a better place than here, even for unbelievers though they suffer some type of loss; and most so if they go through the lake of fire to know whom Christ was (only a hope that is had).
Does it strike you as odd that so many expect animals to be in heaven? The Bible says nothing about animals being anywhere but here on earth, where God intended them to live with us. We were assigned to be the caretakers of this beautiful Earth and all its creatures, being endowed with God's attributes and qualities (now ruined by sin) but under God's Kingdom, all will go back to the way God intended things to be at the beginning. He designed the earth for us....and us for the earth. We were never supposed to go to heaven because God already had a large family of angels there before the Universe was even created. He put as where he wanted us to live....somewhere unspoiled and beautiful.....how could we ever have wanted for anything better?
It is selfish and wicked humans who have messed things up....God will get rid of the wicked humans and restore his first purpose.

He only chose some to fill the positions in his heavenly government so that all who rule us will have lived as humans on earth, including Jesus, so they will be compassionate rulers whilst bringing us back to sinless perfection. This is how much God loves us....he will ensure that the hope we have to live forever in paradise is fulfilled. (Isaiah 55:11)
 

St. SteVen

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What then is “the Kingdom of God”......how does it “come”......and what will it mean for mankind, according to your view?
I'm no expert on the subject. But...
As I understand it... The forerunner announced it; Jesus defined it;
it can only be received like a child; I'm currently a part (doing Kingdom business);
and it will come in full glory in the future.
 

Gottservant

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This is an extension of a previous topic.


As I have said often, "I was raised Protestant evangelical." --- A closed system.


[...]

I was wondering, how many others have had similar experiences with church, or Christianity in general?

Or...

Thoughts from those who would defend Christianity, or a church, as a closed system. Seeing value in it.

I had some thoughts on this already, you are right, there is more of a mystery to Christ (and witnessing) than the Devil is willing to admit.

The Devil wants to put it (Christianity) down to, this or that belief - but those who are of Christ, hear His Voice ("hearing" being the mystery, in this case).

I think there is a mystery to what we are taught (for the Holy Spirit taught us) and a mystery to what we remember (for the Holy Spirit has reminded us), beyond that it is only the work of the Holy Spirit that can have saved anyone.

Thankyou for raising this issue (and not painting the entire faith with the same brush!).
 
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Aunty Jane

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I'm no expert on the subject. But...
As I understand it... The forerunner announced it; Jesus defined it;
it can only be received like a child; I'm currently a part (doing Kingdom business);
and it will come in full glory in the future.
If I was wanting an answer to that question....I'm afraid that is way too vague.....
What scripture would you use to define the Kingdom and what its purpose is?
 

Gottservant

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If I was wanting an answer to that question....I'm afraid that is way too vague.....
What scripture would you use to define the Kingdom and what its purpose is?
"Do not worry little flock, it is the Father's good pleasure to give the Kingdom to you" (gospels, from memory).

"You will sit and judge the twelve tribes of Israel" (gospels, from memory).

The Kingdom is the place where our spirit is at home, and the words of the Kingdom, are those that make our soul strongest.
 

MatthewG

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Well, I don’t believe it @Aunty Jane.

I don’t believe we are living in the last days.

But it’s okay if you do; I don’t care personally cause I don’t take it personal just cause you have some beliefs different than mine.


Also when it comes to animals in heaven; you don’t know because you never been to heaven in the first place. There could be. I honestly don’t know.
 

MatthewG

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If we are to be united in one mind; that one mind is Christ; and Christ the Lord Yeshua said

“Love God first with all your heart, mind, strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself”

People may try to make segregations between themselves and others due to not lining up with their own theology or how they been taught and people may shun you if you disagree with them.

So if you wanna be united in one mind in Christ.

The answer is to love, in faith, and trusting God, allowing people to freely choose how they are going to believe; allowing God to judge them.
 

MatthewG

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The system is not so closed as a person may think.

Because of being in Christ people are made to have liberty; and even having been created they do have the freedom and liberty to choose their route of life growing up.

This liberty in Christ is being able to have freedom from the bondage of sin and death and the earthly though it is a struggle; to have agape love for other people and looking toward God walking in faith and by the spirit.
 

Karl Peters

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Read what you wrote, didn't help.
If anyone is predestined for life, the rest are predestined for death.

Smart enough to consign some for life (for no apparent reason) and the rest for death (for no apparent reason).

Where did you come up with "consign" - Because of our free-will He obviously did not "consign" anyone anywhere!!

That thinking is nothing more than people making excuses for themselves!!!

Everyone has free-will to do choose good or evil!! We are not computers programmed!! We are individuals created!! And we are created with the ability to make decisions!! Even the important decisions of choosing between good and evil - just like it is also written in the Bible!! To think otherwise is to deny God and the writings we calm to think are from Him!

So "consignment' to life or death is our saying we don't believe in God and His saying that we need to choose good!

Now, because He is God He also is smart enough to know that some will not choose good, and that some will choose evil. He is also smart enough to know which ones will choose what, but His knowing does not mean we don't have a choice!!

What we call "predestination" is not predestination at all. It is our failure to want to follow Him, because only God is good. It is nothing less than rebellion, which we all have a bit of in us! Yet we also all have been told about the Lord, whether we know it or not. Not only has the Holy Spirit been proclaiming Jesus Christ to all the world, but also the angels in heaven too!!

It is like the cartoon with the little angel over one shoulder and the little devil over the other shoulder. Both good and evil tries to influence us and we need to choose good, but because the choice is there, many will not choose good but evil. That is what free-will is all about and that is absolutely not "predestination", it is a choice that you are not predestined to make!! But God knows you and what choice you are going to make.

It might be compared to toss a coin into the air. It is not predestined to fall heads or tails, but God is smart enough to know how it will fall.

So, the looser who got tails instead of the mind of Christ, might want to complain that the coin flip was rigged, saying he was predestined, can say what he wants, it was still not rigged. You can still choose heads (the wisdom of God) or tails (the blaming others like even God) for the choice you make.

It's like Flip Wilson saying the devil made me do it!! But the devil did not MAKE you choose evil, nor did God. We make our choices, so we need to choose good that might live!! And that choice is made on that day called TODAY, right?

So the OP is correct - it is not a closed system - to think that is blaming others like even God. And the religious leaders, even the Pharisees and Sadducees did that, and there is nothing new under the sun. We can still go to church, see the religious leaders (as opposed to the followers of the Lord) and see their closed systems and self-righteous thinking - like them saying they are the chosen ones - which prove they don't know the Lord who sooooooo wants that all should choose Him and get to know Him!!

I say that because I listen to Him. And I can't imagine how anyone who knows Him could possibly think that He has a closed system or is exclusive!! OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER - He keeps asking me to try and get people to listen to Him - He has told me that "ANYONE" can choose to listen to Him - and that is in the BIBLE!!

Nobody is predestined!!!! Yet it is apparent that some are so caught up in their pride that they will not, absolutely will not, repent of their ways so as to listen to that angel (the Holy Spirit) who has been bringing us the words of God which come from Jesus Christ. They could!! But they won't.

Maybe if I can get the Lord to do a miracle in their life, they will. But probably not even then. Jesus even did that hear on earth while in the flesh, and mostly in the cities like Capernaum. But then would up having to also say:

Mat 11: 23“And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.

And this makes me sad, because I hear Him and because He even had me working with Him in a Christian healing ministry for five years and I saw hundreds of miracles done by the Lord right in front of me. Legs grew out. Walkers got put aside. A lady going for heart surgery got healed and sent home the next day when she went in for surgery. SOO much, He did, but did that mean they all then started turning by faith to Him and start listening to Him??

We all have a choice, and He is proving He is the Lord our God every day, but who will believe that He is there to get to know personally??? Who will give Him some time to listen to Him today??? WE ALL GET TO DECIDE THAT QUESTION FOR OURSELVES!!

SO WHO DECIDED TO LISTEN TO HIM AND FOLLOW HIM!! I don't need to know, because He knows. But I can tell you from experience that those saying that some are predestined by Him to not know Him have not been listening to Him like they should. Do you not even know, nor have you not even heard that He weeps for those who waited too long and did not choose Him?

Ps 119: 28-30 My soul weeps because of grief;
Strengthen me according to Your word.
Remove the false way from me,
And graciously grant me Your law.
I have chosen the faithful way;
I have placed Your ordinances before me.

To know Him is a choice, and anyone can choose it!! If you choose it you will find that you will get close to the Lord our God, and He grief for those who do not choose Him will be felt by you. You might even hear Him or the angels in heaven too, weeping for those who do not choose Him. They are not predestined, or the weeping would have already happened. Telling others about Him has a purpose and a measure of hope, not matter how stubborn that people are. So it is that I hear Him say to me, "WRITE", "POST" tell them to seek Me. Even Today that was told me. So remove the "FALSE WAY", that says they have no hope!!!
 

St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:

I'm no expert on the subject. But...
As I understand it... The forerunner announced it; Jesus defined it;
it can only be received like a child; I'm currently a part (doing Kingdom business);
and it will come in full glory in the future.
If I was wanting an answer to that question....I'm afraid that is way too vague.....
What scripture would you use to define the Kingdom and what its purpose is?
Like I said, I'm not an expert on the subject.
And frankly am not terribly concerned about defining/refining a position.
Sounds like more work than I am willing to do on this. Sorry.

My quote above stands as my answer.
I don't even think the Kingdom of God can be narrowed down to one singular thing.
 
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Aunty Jane

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St. SteVen said:

I'm no expert on the subject. But...
As I understand it... The forerunner announced it; Jesus defined it;
it can only be received like a child; I'm currently a part (doing Kingdom business);
and it will come in full glory in the future.

Like I said, I'm not an expert on the subject.
And frankly am not terribly concerned about defining/refining a position.
Sounds like more work than I am willing to do on this. Sorry.

My quote above stands as my answer.
I don't even think the Kingdom of God can be narrowed down to one singular thing.
Thank you for your honesty....the problem I see with your response is that no Christian should be lacking in knowledge of the Kingdom, for the simple reason that it was the main theme of Jesus’ entire ministry. He said......”And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations and then the end will come.” (Matt 24:14)

If you unpack his words there....he is saying that his true disciples will be out there preaching about the Kingdom “good news” as a “witness” or testimony to people of all nations....before he comes to judge the world. Their response to this “witness” will determine their future.....because once this work has been completed to God’s satisfaction....then “the end” will come.

How can Jesus say with conviction that the good news of God’s Kingdom will be preached in all the world if the majority who identify as “Christians” do not have a clear understanding about what it is, why it has to come and what the good news about it, is. It’s messengers without a message....or messengers who can’t agree on what the message is.....

The Lord’s Prayer was something I said in church every week....but when someone asked me what the words meant, I was hard pressed to answer.....I had said the words by rote, without understanding what I was praying for.....for God’s Kingdom to “come” so that his will could “be done on earth as it is in heaven”....
Only when you know what the Kingdom is, and how it “comes” can you even begin to understand that model prayer, and know how meaningful it really is.

Have you given this any thought?
 

St. SteVen

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Thank you for your honesty....the problem I see with your response is that no Christian should be lacking in knowledge of the Kingdom, for the simple reason that it was the main theme of Jesus’ entire ministry.
I see that YOU think it is important for me. (or EVERY Christian)
Sounds like a good introduction for a sermon.
Have you given this any thought?
Not really.
 

Aunty Jane

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I see that YOU think it is important for me. (or EVERY Christian)
Sounds like a good introduction for a sermon.
LOL....would you like one? :crossword:I’ll whip one up for you.... :hmhehm

It isn’t me who thinks that knowledge of the Kingdom is important, it the one we claim as our “Lord”.
We are to be preachers and teachers of God’s word so we can’t be like Paul described of some in the first century...

Hebrews 5:11-14....
"We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil." (NIV)

Christianity was to be spread by Christians to those who were not yet believers.....we were not commanded to sit in a building preaching to the converted, and hoping someone would drop by....we were commanded to "GO!" and "preach the good news of the Kingdom"....'teaching people and baptizing them'.....(Matthew 24:14; Matt 28:19-20)....so can you tell me how those who have not bothered to avail themselves of this knowledge about God's Kingdom (for whatever reason or excuse) can somehow pass it on to others? Can you understand the seriousness of a worker with little or no tools, because he has arrived on the job with a rather empty toolbox? Not because the tools were unavailable, but because he just hadn't bothered to put them in the box.

The toolbox is our knowledge base and we can always add to it. God won't put the tools in the box for us.....we have to make that effort ourselves.
Just like a surgeon is trained in his profession and knows his tools and how to use them.....and he just gets more adept with experience. So it should be with us....

When Ezekiel was commissioned as a prophet, imparting God's message to his wayward people God told him...
“Son of man, I have appointed you as a watchman to the house of Israel; and when you hear a word from my mouth, you must warn them from me. 18 When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ but you do not warn him, and you fail to speak in order to warn the wicked one to turn from his wicked course so that he may stay alive, he will die for his error because he is wicked, but I will ask his blood back from you."

With our commission from Jesus to take his message out to the people, comes a similar responsibility.....the same responsibility that Noah had before the world of his day perished. Noah preached righteousness to those people, yet not a soul listened or heeded his warning. But no one could claim ignorance......all they could claim was disbelief that led to disobedience and death.

Jesus said this "time of the end", when we are in expectation of him, would be "just like the days of Noah"....(Matt 24:37-39)
Where are we in that scenario?
 

St. SteVen

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It isn’t me who thinks that knowledge of the Kingdom is important, it the one we claim as our “Lord”.
Sorry, Mame.
I'm going to have to cite you for playing "the God card".
(an appeal to authority in an attempt to win a point/argument/debate)
Essentially misusing the Lord's name.

Your post skates awfully close to spiritual abuse. Shaming and cajoling words.
Seeking to control others with an immovable position?

I'm certainly not going to cram what is important to me down your throat.
Make your point and let it go. (like two posts ago)

Or if you prefer to continue, I can say goodbye with a single click.
No need to shake the dust off my sandals.
 

Karl Peters

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May 18, 2021
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Hold on. Would God be fair to judge someone who never heard about Jesus? He judges them based on what they know.
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:18-20

Who are the Elect? Those who are predestined?
Those that accept Him into their lives!!!

In the Bible we find: called, chosen, and faithful. Those who are with Him are all three of those things! If called, then elected by Him. If chosen, then predestined to be with Him in heaven. Yet we are saved by faith, and a faith that results in us hearing Him and doing what He asks us to do. Like this morning - I sat with Him and again He asked me to post on this forum. I heard Him. He called me. He has predestined me to be with Him in heaven. But I still have a choice to make. To post like He asked me to, or to blow Him off and just start to work on my business which makes me money.

Ultimately, those with the Lord are called, chosen, and faithful (See the last verse in this post!). The Lord has made a place for those who wind up called, chosen, and faithful. I was talking with Him yesterday and talking with Him on this subject and He told me, that He predestined a place for us. Heaven, even the Kingdom of God is a place we are predestined too, but will we make it there?? Had not He elected, called, and chosen people to be with Him in heaven?? That was the plan!! So what happened? It turned out that Adam and Eve were not "faithful"!! So can we say that Adam and Eve were not called by God to live with Him? No, they were called by Him! Can we say that Adam and Eve were not chosen (Elected) to be with God for Eternity? No, they were chosen by God to spend eternity with Him in heaven! So what happened that they who were even created, called, and chosen by God that they wound up falling? The answer is that they were not faithful!!

So faith then becomes the very thing we need for salvation! And 'faithful' is they way our faith is shown!! A person of faith that hears the Lord by faith but does not do what the Lord tells Him is not faithful. And we have a choice to do what He tells us or not. We have a choice to listen to Him who stands there knocking with His voice or not!! So the faithful listen and respond, but the unfaithful, even though they might have been called and chosen, are not the Lord's because they did not have a faith that could be called "faithful' and thus obtain salvation!

Below I have verses to show what I am saying. The Israelites were called by God, and chosen by God, and we can see even today that the Jews in general express a belief in God, but not a belief to where they actually have gotten to know Him personally - by listening to Him and doing what He asks! They don't get to know Him - of course some did and do, but not in general. And this same then has come to the gentiles (the rest of us).

Is 1:2,3 Listen, O heavens, and hear, O earth; For the LORD speaks,
“Sons I have reared and brought up, But they have revolted against Me.
“An ox knows its owner, And a donkey its master’s manger, But Israel does not know,
My people do not understand.”

(You see - Isaiah spoke to those called "Sons" by the Lord, but they were rebellious and so did listen to the Lord and so did not know Him)

Is 45:4 “For the sake of Jacob My servant,
And Israel My chosen one,
I have also called you by your name;
I have given you a title of honor
Though you have not known Me.

(again we read that Israel was chosen, even elected by God, and given a title of honor, thought they didn't get to know Him)

Is 30:9 For this is a rebellious people, false sons, Sons who refuse to listen To the instruction of the LORD;

(So the Sons who refuse to listen are now called 'false sons' - They were called - even called Sons. They were chosen - even elected for eternal life but it escaped them, because they did not combined it with actually hearing the Lord by faith and doing what He asked!)

Mat 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

And did not the call go out to the entire world.

Romans 10:18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
“THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.”

(So we find the call went out to all the world, so was not everyone given a change at what was "predestined" - even a change at eternal life with God in the place He PRE-destinated for people to live with Him! So He was found by those who did not seek Him and became manifested to those who did not even know to ask for Him!)

Romans 10:20
And Isaiah is very bold and says,
“I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME,
I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME.”

(Therefore it is not enough to be called and even elected to be with Him! We must also have a faith that results in faithfulness! And that requires a choice that is made when He calls us. Even a choice to be made on that day called TODAY)

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

So the faith in Jesus Christ that saves us is a faith that He is there to be heard and which we respond to by doing what He askes. Maybe not perfectly, because only the Lord is perfect, but never-the-less it is a faith to where we actually get instructions from Him and respond! That is called, faithfulness!



Rev 17:14 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.
 
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