Christians are not sinners

[GEN2REV]

A "sinner" is someone who accepts, embraces and continues to willingly, sin.

Pure and simple.

That's why we have:
Psalms 1:1
Psalms 1:5
Psalms 26:9
Isaiah 13:9
Amos 9:10
1 Peter 2:24
1 John 3:8
Hebrews 12:3
Jude 1:15

 

[GEN2REV]

we also remember our identification with the rest of the human race, sinners, to keep us humble and connected with the world Christ came to save.

You couldn't be more wrong. As always.

What does the church have to do with the world?

The world is of the enemy.
1 John 5:19
John 8:44

We are to be separate from the fallen world.
2 Corinthians 6:17

Unstained by the world.
Isaiah 52:11

The world is made up of those whose names will never be written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
Revelation 17:8

 

[Lambano]

What does the church have to do with the world?

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

 

[Lambano]

18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. (2 Corinthians 5:18-20)

This is the Church’s mission statement right here. We are Christ’s ambassadors to the world, to reconcile the world to God.

 

[GEN2REV]

18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. (2 Corinthians 5:18-20)

This is the Church’s mission statement right here. We are Christ’s ambassadors to the world, to reconcile the world to God.

Fair enough.

I think the more common understanding of 'the world' among Christendom is one of disdain, or negative connotation anyway. Like this Strong's Definition.

Strong's Concordance
2889-kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Definition: order, the world
Usage: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

6. "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" (cf. Winer's Grammar, 26): John 7:7; John 14:27 (); ; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 Corinthians 6:2; 1 Corinthians 11:32; 2 Corinthians 7:10; James 1:27; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 1:4; 2 Peter 2:20; 1 John 3:1, 13; 1 John 4:5; 1 John 5:19; of the aggregate of ungodly and wicked men in O. T. times, Hebrews 11:38; in Noah's time, ibid. 7; with οὗτος added, Ephesians 2:2 (on which see αἰών, 3); εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου and ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου (see εἰμί, V. 3rd.), John 8:23; John 15:19; John 17:14, 16; 1 John 4:5; λαλεῖν ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to speak in accordance with the world's character and mode of thinking, 1 John 4:5; ὁ ἄρχων τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, i. e. the devil, John 12:31; John 14:30; John 16:11; ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ he that is operative in the world (also of the devil), 1 John 4:4; τό πνεῦμα τοῦ κόσμου 1 Corinthians 2:12; ἡ σοφία τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, 1 Corinthians 1:20 (here G L T Tr WH omit τούτου); 1 Corinthians 3:19. (τά στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου, Galatians 4:3; Colossians 2:8, 20 (see 5 above, and στοιχεῖον, 3 and 4).)

 

[Lambano]

Fair enough.

Thank you. You are correct that we are not to identify with the World, but we are to remember our connection to it.

Principle of Identification: In the incarnation, Christ identified with us in our sinfulness and in dying our death. As Christ's ambassadors, we are to identify with Him.

21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Corinthians 5:20)

20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. (Galatians 2:20)

In identifying ourselves with Christ, we are exhorted to separate ourselves from sin. I don't need to quote chapter and verse on that, do I? However, in identifying ourselves with the Righteousness of God, that means identifying with God's love for the World He created (John 3:16) and His commitment to reconcile with it.

 

[Lambano]

Principle: Spiritual Pride is a real problem.

12 Therefore let the one who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:12)

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)

There is no sin a pagan can commit that a Christian cannot commit. You think they don't notice our pride, our "holier than thou" attitude? That they don't notice when Christians succumb to sexual temptation, or substance abuse, or greed, or what-have-you? No wonder they call us hypocrites. We're no better than they are; they know it and we know it. In our mission as Christ's ambassadors to the World, remember this principle and be humble.

 

[Lambano]

That said...

Principle: Our sin does not define who we are.

20 But if I do the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin that dwells in me. (Romans 7:20)

I used to think Paul was being disingenuous in this verse, like me when I blame the dog for my farts. I only recently realized that this sub-principle is important in the overall principle of identifying ourselves with Christ.

This is why I think the premise of the OP is correct, but my reasons are based on the Biblical principles of self-identity, not what others are saying.

[Epilogue] Should we identify as sinners, along with the rest of mankind? I started off with this scripture:

It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost. (1 Timothy 1:15)

Paul here clearly did identify with sinners. But he also wrote this, which we recite during the liturgy after confession:

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, that we still being sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)

That little word ἔτι.

1. of a thing which went on formerly, whereas now a different state of things exists or has begun to exist; or
2. of a thing which continues at present

Strongs indicates that when used with a participle, definition 1 applies. In this case the participle is ὄντων (the participle form of "to be"), indicating that now a different state of things has begun to exist.

So, Paul says both. Now - but not yet. "The mark of Christian maturity is the ability to handle ambiguity." (Without going into cognitive dissonance.)

 

[Robert Gwin]

Usually you are not so disingenuous about your responses. I am disappointed.

All have sinned. Not all are sinning. All were sinners by Adam. All are not sinners by Christ.

You are purposely wresting the Scripture to apply what was once for all, to what is no more for Christians: born again no more to be sinners, but called to be saints.

Once again, where does Scripture speak of any Christian as a sinner? The subject here is Christians being saved in Christ Jesus, not unbelieving sinners that go on still in their sins and trespasses.

May I ask you to define what you believe a saint is?

I don't define anything other than what Scripture says about the things of God.

So look up everything about the saints in Scripture, and you can define it, and you will never be able to define a saint as a sinner in Scripture.

If you do, show it.

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

No righteous saint is an ungodly sinner, and no sinner is a godly saint.

On this point at least, you are stuck trying to teach your own mind for doctrine of God, and so you are found lying against the Scriptures.

Not only that Robert, but even those "born again" holy ones can sin as well, Heb 6:4-6. Paul who was born again admitted he was a sinner sir
(Romans 7:21-25) 21 I find, then, this law in my case: When I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. 22 I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, 23 but I see in my body another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body. 24 Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? 25 Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law.
note the preceding verses as well.

 

[robert derrick]

You couldn't be more wrong. As always.

What does the church have to do with the world?

The world is of the enemy.
1 John 5:19
John 8:44

We are to be separate from the fallen world.
2 Corinthians 6:17

Unstained by the world.
Isaiah 52:11

The world is made up of those whose names will never be written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
Revelation 17:8

It is something indeed to see Christians proudly declaring their sinful identity with the world, in order to stay 'humble'.

Scripture calls it will worship and false humility.

It is the very definition of the more I sin, the more grace I have to celebrate.

 

[robert derrick]

Principle: Spiritual Pride is a real problem.

12 Therefore let the one who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:12)

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)

There is no sin a pagan can commit that a Christian cannot commit. You think they don't notice our pride, our "holier than thou" attitude? That they don't notice when Christians succumb to sexual temptation, or substance abuse, or greed, or what-have-you? No wonder they call us hypocrites. We're no better than they are; they know it and we know it. In our mission as Christ's ambassadors to the World, remember this principle and be humble.

I'll be glad to go through all the things you try to make Scripture say, but for now, just let me say that I completely agree with you about yourself:

You certainly are a sinner, and no saint.

We're no better than they are; they know it and we know it.

'We' being sinners such as yourself.

For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens.

 

[Abigail]

If I considered myself a sinner I could never in my life say Jesus saved me from my sins.

 

[robert derrick]

Thank you. You are correct that we are not to identify with the World, but we are to remember our connection to it.

Principle of Identification: In the incarnation, Christ identified with us in our sinfulness and in dying our death. As Christ's ambassadors, we are to identify with Him.

21 He made who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Corinthians 5:20)

20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. (Galatians 2:20)

In identifying ourselves with Christ, we are exhorted to separate ourselves from sin. I don't need to quote chapter and verse on that, do I? However, in identifying ourselves with the Righteousness of God, that means identifying with God's love for the World He created (John 3:16) and His commitment to reconcile with it.

Principle of Identification: In the incarnation, Christ identified with us in our sinfulness and in dying our death. As Christ's ambassadors, we are to identify with Him...we also remember our identification with the rest of the human race, sinners, to keep us humble and connected with the world Christ came to save.

First there is salvation by faith only and apart from obeying the faith, and then there follows 'Identity Christianity' for ongoing sinners and trespassers, that are now more humble about it.

There's Identity Politics, and now there's Identity Religion.

Identity Christians are sinners that now know it, and so become humble sinners, by repenting of being proud sinners of the world.

They don't identify with repenting of their sins of the world, knowing nothing about that, but they certainly know how to identify with fellow sinners of the world.

Identity Christians make really great Identity Ambassadors for their christ they identify themselves with: hey now can identify with both: they can 'Identify' with their christ as believing humble sinners, and they can identify with unbelieving proud sinners, though being more identifiably humble about it.

Identity Christians only identify with repentance, without doing it. They identify themselves as real sinners in deed and in truth, but now are humbly so.

They would never identify with repenting from all sins and dead works in this life, because they would never ever be so proud as to identify themselves as saints in Christ Jesus, that do His righteousness at all times with a pure heart of true holiness and obedient faith.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently.

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Identity Christians need to spend less time 'identifying themselves' with their christ, and just go ahead and repent already, and begin to obey the gospel of the cross, and so purify their souls, even as is pure.

Identity Christians only, being saved by their own faith only, identify themselves with another christ of another gospel, and not with Jesus Christ that takes away all our sins, and washes our souls clean of all unrighteousness in His blood.

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

 

[robert derrick]

Principle: Spiritual Pride is a real problem.

12 Therefore let the one who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:12)

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)

There is no sin a pagan can commit that a Christian cannot commit. You think they don't notice our pride, our "holier than thou" attitude? That they don't notice when Christians succumb to sexual temptation, or substance abuse, or greed, or what-have-you? No wonder they call us hypocrites. We're no better than they are; they know it and we know it. In our mission as Christ's ambassadors to the World, remember this principle and be humble.

There is no sin a pagan can commit that a Christian cannot commit.

Identity Christians only, yes most certainly. Christians saints, no.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The hypocrisy of Identity Christians is that they do so while contradicting Scripture in order to do so.

 

[robert derrick]

Principle: Spiritual Pride is a real problem.

12 Therefore let the one who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:12)

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)

There is no sin a pagan can commit that a Christian cannot commit. You think they don't notice our pride, our "holier than thou" attitude? That they don't notice when Christians succumb to sexual temptation, or substance abuse, or greed, or what-have-you? No wonder they call us hypocrites. We're no better than they are; they know it and we know it. In our mission as Christ's ambassadors to the World, remember this principle and be humble.

You think they don't notice our pride, our "holier than thou" attitude?

In that thou sayest 'our', ye do not well, except thou sayest 'our' in being 'your' Identity Christians only.

Since Identity Christians only try to identify themselves as Christians, and are not doers of the word from the heart, they therefore cannot possibly identify with being holy as He is holy, since we must obey God's commandment to do so.

Holier than thou is not for them that do His righteousness at all times by His faith from the heart.

 

[robert derrick]

Principle: Spiritual Pride is a real problem.

12 Therefore let the one who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:12)

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)

There is no sin a pagan can commit that a Christian cannot commit. You think they don't notice our pride, our "holier than thou" attitude? That they don't notice when Christians succumb to sexual temptation, or substance abuse, or greed, or what-have-you? No wonder they call us hypocrites. We're no better than they are; they know it and we know it. In our mission as Christ's ambassadors to the World, remember this principle and be humble.

That they don't notice when Christians succumb to sexual temptation, or substance abuse, or greed, or what-have-you? No wonder they call us hypocrites. We're no better than they are; they know it and we know it.

Christian saints not only do not do it, but also try not to notice it in others, much less have to hear about it being gloated over by Identity Christians.

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

To the normal Christian, hypocrisy is calling oneself Christian while living like the world, much less bragging about it.

To an Identity Christian hypocrite, it's only hypocrisy of they don't brag about it openly.

In our mission as Christ's ambassadors to the World, remember this principle and be humble.

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

To the normal Christian, being humble is humbling ourselves before God in order to be delivered from sins of the world with a pure heart for God.

To the Identity Christian, being humble is acknowledging what a hypocrite they are before all the world.

Even the world would call a hypocrite a hypocrite, and only an Identity Christian would call it being an humble hypocrite.

How can anyone identify with a hypocrite and with Christ? Identify with being a hypocrite and being an ambassador for Christ?

Identity Christianity is only for them that mentally believe, and they are mental indeed.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello to you, reader,

Yes Christians are sinners, all people have sin and still make mistakes.

Faith from the Christian standpoint is in Christ, Jesus, the Son of God, in which he becomes your justification of being made right with God by faith, in the Gospel of Christ. Where one learns about how Jesus, has overcame Satan, demons, hell, the grave, Sheol, death and sin.

In how they by faith in knowing who Jesus is from the Gospels they will be set free in newness of life by the spirit, becoming a child of God by faith, being born again.

New communication is now given because of the spirit of God, and the spirit of Christ that is given to the new believer, in which they should understand now is that God does loves them, and has loved them, and as desires for them to grow in learning about the truths of God and what the Bible has to share about the eternal promises of God.

In love, peace, kindness, goodness, of Christ,
Matthew Gallagher

(just my two cents).

Also Sin normally means missing the mark. All of us miss the mark of living up the standard of God. However Jesus did not fail by missing the mark, he fulfilled everything the Father desired for him to do, in order to pay for sin and reconciled the world back to the Father through Christ. As the Father by the Holy Spirit through Jesus had healed so many people.

The Holy Spirit and the spirit of Christ in us, comes and heals our soul from when it may be in darkness and no hope found. Hope is founded in Jesus, and He lives with in us, and so does the Holy Spirit of God.

When we make mistakes the Holy Spirit doesn’t leave us, if the Holy Spirit leaves a person it may be due to their unbelief. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the word of God. If you don’t have any belief you wouldn’t have any faith.

Be encouraged. to read your Bible,
whoever reads this,
In love, peace, kindness, of Christ,
Matthew Gallagher

 

[Pearl]

Yes Christians are sinners, all people have sin and still make mistakes.

Christians were sinners who are now saints who still make mistakes.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello Pearl,

Whatever you would like to say.

What do you think about the grace of God, and the grace of Jesus Christ?

How the atonement was for all people.

That now all people having their sins paid for are freely able to come to the Lord Jesus and have communication with the Father in heaven, and be renewed and changed becoming a new creation in the Lord having their new inner spiritual man/ new inner spiritual woman by faith in Jesus that makes them newfound and newborn Children of God being given the holy spirit and the spirit of Christ now with in them, becoming citizens of heaven ? (by faith in the Gospel of Christ : death, burial, and resurrection.)

In peace, kindness, love, of Christ,
Matthew Gallagher

 

[Pearl]

What do you think about the grace of God, and the grace of Jesus Christ?

I think the grace of God is truly Amazing Grace. If we turn to Jesus and are reconciled to God our sin is pardoned and we are set free of our sinful lives. But because we have our human element warring against our spiritual being we still continue to sin, the good news though, is that we now recognise the sin where before we didn't. And the more we grow spiritually the more we are able to combat the sinful side of our natures.

All who come to the Lord have their sin washed away, the offer of salvation is for everyone, but not everyone chooses to accept God's offer.