Christians being excluded as unfit or bigots...

[Hobie]

Seems like Christians wont be able to sit on any cases in this new 'Woke' environment, be prepared to be taken out....

'A Missouri prison worker’s legal fight against on-the-job discrimination this week provided U.S. Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito — one of the court’s most conservative members — an opportunity to denounce the landmark decision recognizing same-sex marriage nationwide...
..the U.S. Supreme Court also declined to hear the case — effectively upholding the trial decision for Finney. But the victory came with a five-page statement from Alito laying into Missouri courts and expressing concern about Obergefell, the 2015 opinion that legalized same-sex marriage across the country.

“In this case, the court below reasoned that a person who still holds traditional religious views on questions of sexual morality is presumptively unfit to serve on a jury in a case involving a party who is a lesbian,” Alito wrote, referring to the Missouri appeals court.

“That holding exemplifies the danger that I anticipated in Obergefell v. Hodges … namely, that Americans who do not hide their adherence to traditional religious beliefs about homosexual conduct will be ‘labeled as bigots and treated as such’ by the government.”...

Supreme Court justice slams MO court, says it shows ‘danger’ of same-sex marriage decision

“Americans who do not hide their adherence to traditional religious beliefs about homosexual conduct will be ‘labeled as bigots and treated as such’ by the government,” Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito said.

www.yahoo.com

One by one the fundamental rights of Christians are being superseded by the 'Woke' agenda, incredible....

 

[PossibleThrowawayAccount]

There would be more outrage if this happened to a Muslim who, ironically, would be a thousand times more homophobic.

 

[Bob Estey]

Seems like Christians wont be able to sit on any cases in this new 'Woke' environment, be prepared to be taken out....

'A Missouri prison worker’s legal fight against on-the-job discrimination this week provided U.S. Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito — one of the court’s most conservative members — an opportunity to denounce the landmark decision recognizing same-sex marriage nationwide...
..the U.S. Supreme Court also declined to hear the case — effectively upholding the trial decision for Finney. But the victory came with a five-page statement from Alito laying into Missouri courts and expressing concern about Obergefell, the 2015 opinion that legalized same-sex marriage across the country.

“In this case, the court below reasoned that a person who still holds traditional religious views on questions of sexual morality is presumptively unfit to serve on a jury in a case involving a party who is a lesbian,” Alito wrote, referring to the Missouri appeals court.

“That holding exemplifies the danger that I anticipated in Obergefell v. Hodges … namely, that Americans who do not hide their adherence to traditional religious beliefs about homosexual conduct will be ‘labeled as bigots and treated as such’ by the government.”...

Supreme Court justice slams MO court, says it shows ‘danger’ of same-sex marriage decision

“Americans who do not hide their adherence to traditional religious beliefs about homosexual conduct will be ‘labeled as bigots and treated as such’ by the government,” Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito said.

www.yahoo.com

One by one the fundamental rights of Christians are being superseded by the 'Woke' agenda, incredible....

The Bible teaches us that Satan rules the world. It's nice that we can choose to live in the kingdom of God, instead.

 

[O'Darby]

As a retired lawyer, I can tell you that the entire concept of a right to a trial by a "jury of your peers" long ago ceased to resemble anything the Founding Fathers would recognize. Jury selection now is a high-stakes game with jury consultants paid more than the lawyers and is possibly the most critical phase of a trial. The way things are going, a lesbian like the one in the Missouri case will soon be demanding a jury of 12 lesbian peers, then 12 tattooed lesbian peers, then 12 tattooed transgender lesbian peers. Then finally, "I'm so unique you can't even find 12 people who are my peers!"

There is no particular reason a Christian who thinks lesbianism is sinful would be unable to impartially weigh the evidence in a case involving a lesbian. The removal in the Missouri case occurred during the voir dire process where the lawyers and the judge question potential jurors to determine possible bias. Here's what actually took place (from Alito's statement).

At the beginning of voir dire, Finney’s attorney asked all the jurors what he characterized as “a tricky question,” namely, whether any of them “went to a conservative Christian church” where “it was taught that people [who] are homosexual shouldn’t have the same rights as everyone else” because “what they did” was “a sin.” Id., at 29a–30a. The question was indeed “tricky” because it conflated two separate issues: whether the prospective jurors believed that homosexual conduct is sinful and whether they believed that gays and lesbians should not enjoy the legal rights possessed by others. In response to this question, some potential jurors raised their hands, and Finney’s lawyer then questioned them individually.​

​

During this phase of voir dire, Juror 4, a pastor’s wife, stated that “homosexuality, according to the Bible, is a sin.” Id., at 38a. But she quickly added: “So is gossiping, so is lying.” Ibid. “[N]one of us can be perfect. And so I’m here because it’s an honor to sit in here and to perhaps be a part of, you know, a civic duty.” Ibid.​

​

Juror 13 similarly stated that he believes homosexuality is a sin because “it’s in the Bible.” Id., at 33a. But he followed by noting that “every one of us here sins. . . . It’s just part of our nature. And it’s something we struggle with, hopefully throughout our life.” Id., at 33a–34a. And the fact that it is a sin “has really nothing to do with—in a negative way with whatever this case is going to be about.” Id., at 34a.​

​

Finney’s counsel moved to strike these jurors for cause, arguing that “there’s no way . . . somebody [who] looks at a gay person and says . . . you are a sinner” could ever fairly consider a case involving a lesbian plaintiff. Id., at 43a. The trial judge granted that motion. She noted that both jurors said “that they could follow the law,” id., at 45a, and she did not suggest that she disbelieved them. Nevertheless, she concluded that she should “err on the side of caution,” and she therefore dismissed Jurors 4 and 13 because there were “enough jurors left” without them. Ibid.​

​

The Missouri Court of Appeals affirmed the dismissals for two reasons. First, it reasoned that the jurors’ belief “that Finney’s conduct was sinful (meaning immoral and wrong)” provided a sustainable ground for “concluding that they could not impartially and fairly decide her claim that she was unlawfully harassed due to her homosexuality— even if those veniremembers claimed that their religious beliefs would not prevent them from serving.” Id., at 78a. Second, the court concluded that the jurors had been dismissed, not on the basis of their religious status, but on the basis of their religious beliefs. And this distinction, it said, made all the difference because, in its view, while dismissals based on a juror’s “status as Christians” must comport with strict scrutiny, dismissals based on a juror’s “views” need not. Id., at 81a.​

​

Before wokeism turned the world upside-down, a jury of your peers had been interpreted simply to mean a broad and diverse group representative of the community. In Missouri, this would probably have included eight or more Christians. (77% of Missourians identify as Christian.) Now it means a finally tuned, carefully selected group who can "relate" to whatever special interest group the defendant is a part of.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Seems like Christians wont be able to sit on any cases in this new 'Woke' environment, be prepared to be taken out....

'A Missouri prison worker’s legal fight against on-the-job discrimination this week provided U.S. Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito — one of the court’s most conservative members — an opportunity to denounce the landmark decision recognizing same-sex marriage nationwide...
..the U.S. Supreme Court also declined to hear the case — effectively upholding the trial decision for Finney. But the victory came with a five-page statement from Alito laying into Missouri courts and expressing concern about Obergefell, the 2015 opinion that legalized same-sex marriage across the country.

“In this case, the court below reasoned that a person who still holds traditional religious views on questions of sexual morality is presumptively unfit to serve on a jury in a case involving a party who is a lesbian,” Alito wrote, referring to the Missouri appeals court.

“That holding exemplifies the danger that I anticipated in Obergefell v. Hodges … namely, that Americans who do not hide their adherence to traditional religious beliefs about homosexual conduct will be ‘labeled as bigots and treated as such’ by the government.”...

Supreme Court justice slams MO court, says it shows ‘danger’ of same-sex marriage decision

“Americans who do not hide their adherence to traditional religious beliefs about homosexual conduct will be ‘labeled as bigots and treated as such’ by the government,” Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito said.

www.yahoo.com

One by one the fundamental rights of Christians are being superseded by the 'Woke' agenda, incredible....

Remember,I have 3 houses and support Socialist principles for the working class, Bernie Sanders denouncing a Trump cabinet nominee and solely because the nominee was Christian?

On the record at that.

 

[MrNoir]

Seems like Christians wont be able to sit on any cases in this new 'Woke' environment, be prepared to be taken out....

'A Missouri prison worker’s legal fight against on-the-job discrimination this week provided U.S. Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito — one of the court’s most conservative members — an opportunity to denounce the landmark decision recognizing same-sex marriage nationwide...
..the U.S. Supreme Court also declined to hear the case — effectively upholding the trial decision for Finney. But the victory came with a five-page statement from Alito laying into Missouri courts and expressing concern about Obergefell, the 2015 opinion that legalized same-sex marriage across the country.

“In this case, the court below reasoned that a person who still holds traditional religious views on questions of sexual morality is presumptively unfit to serve on a jury in a case involving a party who is a lesbian,” Alito wrote, referring to the Missouri appeals court.

“That holding exemplifies the danger that I anticipated in Obergefell v. Hodges … namely, that Americans who do not hide their adherence to traditional religious beliefs about homosexual conduct will be ‘labeled as bigots and treated as such’ by the government.”...

Supreme Court justice slams MO court, says it shows ‘danger’ of same-sex marriage decision

“Americans who do not hide their adherence to traditional religious beliefs about homosexual conduct will be ‘labeled as bigots and treated as such’ by the government,” Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito said.

www.yahoo.com

One by one the fundamental rights of Christians are being superseded by the 'Woke' agenda, incredible....

Wait. You are decrying the label of bigot by making a post attacking the civil rights of a minority. Can you not see the irony in this?

 

[MrNoir]

As a retired lawyer, I can tell you that the entire concept of a right to a trial by a "jury of your peers" long ago ceased to resemble anything the Founding Fathers would recognize. Jury selection now is a high-stakes game with jury consultants paid more than the lawyers and is possibly the most critical phase of a trial. The way things are going, a lesbian like the one in the Missouri case will soon be demanding a jury of 12 lesbian peers, then 12 tattooed lesbian peers, then 12 tattooed transgender lesbian peers. Then finally, "I'm so unique you can't even find 12 people who are my peers!"

Do you think someone displaying the same level of contempt for a minority as you are expressing here could be an objective juror?

There is no particular reason a Christian who thinks lesbianism is sinful would be unable to impartially weigh the evidence in a case involving a lesbian. The removal in the Missouri case occurred during the voir dire process where the lawyers and the judge question potential jurors to determine possible bias. Here's what actually took place (from Alito's statement).

At the beginning of voir dire, Finney’s attorney asked all the jurors what he characterized as “a tricky question,” namely, whether any of them “went to a conservative Christian church” where “it was taught that people [who] are homosexual shouldn’t have the same rights as everyone else”​

And there is the real issue. It's not about anyone's religion its about belonging to an organization that says a minority "shouldn’t have the same rights as everyone else”

If a member of a white nationalist group , an organization that believes that non-whites shouldn't' have the same rights as everyone else, was rejected for the jury of a case involving a black man would anyone even be trying to pretend that such a person would make an objective juror? Would a Supreme Court justice try to use that as a means to attack Loving V Virginia?

 

[MrNoir]

Remember,I have 3 houses and support Socialist principles for the working class, Bernie Sanders denouncing a Trump cabinet nominee and solely because the nominee was Christian?

On the record at that.

"In a democratic society, founded on the principle of religious freedom, we can all disagree over issues, but racism and bigotry – condemning an entire group of people because of their faith – cannot be part of any public policy." Not because the individual was a Christian, i think all of Trumps cabinet nominees were Christian, but because of the statements made by that person about non-Christians.

 

[O'Darby]

Do you think someone displaying the same level of contempt for a minority as you are expressing here could be an objective juror?



And there is the real issue. It's not about anyone's religion its about belonging to an organization that says a minority "shouldn’t have the same rights as everyone else”

If a member of a white nationalist group , an organization that believes that non-whites shouldn't' have the same rights as everyone else, was rejected for the jury of a case involving a black man would anyone even be trying to pretend that such a person would make an objective juror? Would a Supreme Court justice try to use that as a means to attack Loving V Virginia?

I gave you a "Like" just because you are so caught in the web of your thinking that I feel a bit sorry for you. Do you know of ANY church that teaches that members of the LGBTQ community shouldn't be entitled to fair civil and criminal trials? I don't and highly doubt there are any. Do I think I could serve as juror and evaluate the evidence fairly without regard to whether one party was a member of the LGBTQ community? ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY. I hate to play the "some of my best friends" card, but two of my best friends were gay. I have NEVER had the slightest hostile or negative interaction with any member of the LGBTQ community - but it suits your stereotype to assume I have.

A member of a White Nationalist group would instantly be eliminated as a juror in a case involving a Black. That's what voir dire is for. To equate "all Christians" with White Nationalists, and to say they should all be "presumptively" excluded, is about as un-Progressive as it gets. When Christians finally reach the point of being a minority in this country, we'll see if you are as enthusiastic about their "minority rights." Are you as enthusiastic about Muslim and Jewish rights as about LGBTQ rights, or is your concern selective? (No need to answer - we already know the answer. Although you identify as Christian, I'd hate to have YOU on a jury in case involving a Bible Belt pastor.)

In your rather limited thinking, LGBTQ=Good and Christians=Evil, at least in every instance where their rights may be in conflict. Black and white, no nuances. The LGBTQ community is not merely to be tolerated but coddled and celebrated in every instance. Christians, not so much. You are simply swimming in the LGBTQ Kool-Aid, simple as that.

 

[MatthewG]

Do you love cynical judgements from human beings?

 

[MrNoir]

I gave you a "Like" just because you are so caught in the web of your thinking that I feel a bit sorry for you. Do you know of ANY church that teaches that members of the LGBTQ community shouldn't be entitled to fair civil and criminal trials? I don't and highly doubt there are any.

You mean the same rights as everyone else.

The thing the potential jurors were asked and several indicated that they did belong to organizations that said LGBT+ people were not entitled to the same rights as everyone else.

Do I think I could serve as juror and evaluate the evidence fairly without regard to whether one party was a member of the LGBTQ community? ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY. I hate to play the "some of my best friends" card, but two of my best friends were gay. I have NEVER had the slightest hostile or negative interaction with any member of the LGBTQ community - but it suits your stereotype to assume I have.

Do you compare your friends with "shoplifters, murderers and rapists?
Have you shared with them your thoughts on "LGBTQ+++ proponents and sycophants who insist their sinful (in Christian eyes) proclivities and practices must not only be tolerated but normalized and celebrated."?

A member of a White Nationalist group would instantly be eliminated as a juror in a case involving a Black. That's what voir dire is for. To equate "all Christians" with White Nationalists, and to say they should all be "presumptively" excluded, is about as un-Progressive as it gets.

I never compared all Christians to White Nationalists...and you know that.

So why is it OK for a member of a group that holds that African American's should not have the same rights as everyone else to be "instantly be eliminated as a juror in a case involving a Black" but that it is wrong dismiss a juror because they are a member of an organization that holds that LGBT people should not have the same rights as everyone else?

When Christians finally reach the point of being a minority in this country, we'll see if you are as enthusiastic about their "minority rights."

Are you suggesting that minorities in the United States are not treated well or fairly?

Are you as enthusiastic about Muslim and Jewish rights as about LGBTQ rights, or is your concern selective?

Yes i think everyone has the same rights and legal protections as everyone else, even you.

(No need to answer - we already know the answer.

Apparently you didn't know. or more likely you just wanted to answer for me.

Although you identify as Christian, I'd hate to have YOU on a jury in case involving a Bible Belt pastor.)

Why?

In your rather limited thinking, LGBTQ=Good and Christians=Evil,

that is only an example of your dishonest thinking.

Christians aren't evil but the demonizing and prejudice some Christians engage in when talking about LGBT people is.

at least in every instance where their rights may be in conflict. Black and white, no nuances. The LGBTQ community is not merely to be tolerated but coddled and celebrated in every instance.

How?

And how does this statement go with your claims that you could "ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY" be an impartial juror?

Christians, not so much. You are simply swimming in the LGBTQ Kool-Aid, simple as that.

No negativity or hostility here.

 

[O'Darby]

You mean the same rights as everyone else.

The thing the potential jurors were asked and several indicated that they did belong to organizations that said LGBT+ people were not entitled to the same rights as everyone else.



Do you compare your friends with "shoplifters, murderers and rapists?
Have you shared with them your thoughts on "LGBTQ+++ proponents and sycophants who insist their sinful (in Christian eyes) proclivities and practices must not only be tolerated but normalized and celebrated."?

I never compared all Christians to White Nationalists...and you know that.

So why is it OK for a member of a group that holds that African American's should not have the same rights as everyone else to be "instantly be eliminated as a juror in a case involving a Black" but that it is wrong dismiss a juror because they are a member of an organization that holds that LGBT people should not have the same rights as everyone else?

Are you suggesting that minorities in the United States are not treated well or fairly?

Yes i think everyone has the same rights and legal protections as everyone else, even you.

Apparently you didn't know. or more likely you just wanted to answer for me.

Why?

that is only an example of your dishonest thinking.

Christians aren't evil but the demonizing and prejudice some Christians engage in when talking about LGBT people is.

How?

And how does this statement go with your claims that you could "ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY" be an impartial juror?

No negativity or hostility here.

I've been to too many rodeos to continue wasting my time attempting to rope this pointless calf.

Have a nice life.

"See you in heaven if you make the list." (Michael Stipe - EEK, HE'S GAY!!!)

 

[Augustin56]

I've been to too many rodeos to continue wasting my time attempting to rope this pointless calf.

Have a nice life.

"See you in heaven if you make the list." (Michael Stipe - EEK, HE'S GAY!!!)

Wise move, O'Darby. MrNoir has been so indoctrinated to the lies of the left that he can no longer see the truth. He's blinded. All we can is pray for him.

 

[O'Darby]

A bit of R.E.M. trivia I found amusing and may have some slight relevance to Christianity: Many people think their biggest hit, "Losing My Religion," has some deep, existential meaning. Michael Stipe explained that it's just a Southern expression along the lines of "Well, shut my mouth!" As in, "When I saw Shirley's new hairdo, I dang near lost my religion."

 

[MrNoir]

I've been to too many rodeos to continue wasting my time attempting to rope this pointless calf.

Much easier than actually responding to the points made

 

[MrNoir]

Wise move, O'Darby. MrNoir has been so indoctrinated to the lies of the left that he can no longer see the truth. He's blinded. All we can is pray for him.

and what lies are those?