There is nothing in the Bible about the date, student of the Bible would know that. Student of denominational mysticism does not.Pilgrimer said:That's your response to someone who made an effort to treat you as a serious Bible student?
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There is nothing in the Bible about the date, student of the Bible would know that. Student of denominational mysticism does not.Pilgrimer said:That's your response to someone who made an effort to treat you as a serious Bible student?
You were the one who said, "Shepherds are not with sheep on pastures in December," and I started with all the Scriptural evidence and then included historical information and even meterological data that proves what you said is simply not true.Suhar said:There is nothing in the Bible about the date, student of the Bible would know that. Student of denominational mysticism does not.
No Suhar, what is clear is that you cannot offer a shred of evidence that shepherds wouldn't be in the fields in December.Suhar said:If one thing is clear from this topic is that you do not have any evidence other then denominational mysticism.
If God didn't want Jesus' birth to be remembered, why did He include it in the Gospels?Suhar said:If Jesus wanted His followers to celebrate His birthday He would tell them when, don't you think? At least give a clue about it's significance in some way. Maybe turn
Wow! You do not know answer to that?Pilgrimer said:If God didn't want Jesus' birth to be remembered, why did He include it in the Gospels?
You mean you wouldn't know Jesus was a man if the Gospels had not recorded his birth? The multitudes of Jews knew he was a man, so did the Romans, and they didn't know the story of his birth. Mark and John didn't include it in their Gospels, do you think maybe they didn't know he was a man?Suhar said:Wow! You do not know answer to that?
So that we know that Jesus was born as a man!
The day did seem to matter to God: "Unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.Suhar said:On what day it happpened does not seem to matter to God but fact of it happening should matter to everybody.
If it mattered to God then why He did not say which day "this day" is?Pilgrimer said:The day did seem to matter to God: "Unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.
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You do not believe that Bible is a Word of God? You need words of men instead?Pilgrimer said:You mean you wouldn't know Jesus was a man if the Gospels had not recorded his birth? The multitudes of Jews knew he was a man, so did the Romans, and they didn't know the story of his birth. Mark and John didn't include it in their Gospels, do you think maybe they didn't know he was a man?
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Get well soon, but what you've offered is not convincing when looked at all the evidence. You've got three obscure references and a bunch of maybes. The fact still remain that every credible encyclopedia and other sources disagree with you. Your picture????? No way of knowing when it was taken.Pilgrimer said:Look Suhar, I've got some downtime with the flu and I really don't want to waste it fending off your pointed arrows. I have been researching this issue of the historical evidence for the date of the nativity for over 20 years and I'm always willing to look at new or additional evidence. So if you have something by way of historical information to offer, please do so.
20 years and you have yet to find any evidence at all! (Maybe it is time to stop looking for something that is not there?) At least you did not share anything that can remotely qualify to be an evidence.Pilgrimer said:Look Suhar, I've got some downtime with the flu and I really don't want to waste it fending off your pointed arrows. I have been researching this issue of the historical evidence for the date of the nativity for over 20 years and I'm always willing to look at new or additional evidence. So if you have something by way of historical information to offer, please do so.
I wrote this post pretty quick as I only had a few minutes on my break. I was looking to edit it some, but for some reason I cannot. Pilgrimmer, by all means get some rest if needed and take your time answering.FHII said:Get well soon, but what you've offered is not convincing when looked at all the evidence. You've got three obscure references and a bunch of maybes. The fact still remain that every credible encyclopedia and other sources disagree with you. Your picture????? No way of knowing when it was taken.
Overall, the evidence in the Bible states Jesus was not born in the winter. There weren't shepherds in the field nor would anyone travel long distances (as Mary and Joseph did) during that time. Jesus simply wasn't born in December.
The truth is always illuminating.Mungo said:Pilgrimer,
Thank you for your posts in this thread. They are most illuminating.
Mungo
The late German science reporter Werner Keller confirms the above in his book The Bible As History. He cites historical and meteorological evidence that the Bethlehem shepherds would have had their sheep indoors by the month of December.FHII said:Yea.... The problem is I know a man who actually went to Israel.... Asked real, live Israeli shepherds if sheep are in the fields in December. They said no, they are brought in.
You didn’t comment on the Scriptural evidence. I would think that would be considered the most weighty. Jacob spent 20 years tending Laban’s flocks, and he speaks of being consumed by the drought during the day and the frost by night, so there is evidence from the Scripture that the weather in Isarel was not so cold that shepherds were not able to be in the fields with their flocks on frosty winter nights, Jacob was.FHII said:Like I said you have three obscure references.
But FHII, I haven’t even begun to share all the evidence with you. I only offered you my opinion that the details of the nativity account had to have come from Mary, and that I do not believe for a moment that Mary would not have remembered the date of Jesus’ birth. And it was obviously known by Luke because he says that when John baptized Jesus, that Jesus “began to be” about 30 years old.(Luke 3:23) Now how would Luke have known Jesus had just turned 30 unless he knew Jesus had just had a birthday?FHII said:Based on the evidence you have given, I still don't see evidence as to how they came up with that date.
But 20 years ago you would have found very little about it at all, except for what was coming out of the Watchtower Society publications. But those theories are catching hold and becoming very popular. But when has truth necessarily been what’s popular?FHII said:I find many more websites and prose that states that shepherds would not be in the field than I do saying they would have been.
As you wish. But that’s not the end of the matter. Even if it were true that shepherds could not tend their flocks in the fields on December nights, you still have to address the evidence that the flocks at Bethlehem were not regular sheep being pastured, but were being held at Bethlehem until they were inspected and then driven up to the city for sacrifice. In which case, they would be in the fields year-round as sacrifices were offered daily, including during the week of Chanukah, which in the year of the Lord’s birth was December 19 – 26.FHII said:I stick to the testimony of my friend (who is also my Pastor), the many sources on the web that back that up, and the notion that shepherds would not be in the field in December.
Again, there is much to be said on that subject, including looking at documents such as letters written and edicts issued by Roman Emperors who specifically address that very subject (which I suspect you’ve never heard of either?), but let’s deal with the birth itself first, okay?FHII said:There is the question of paganism having an influence on the date.
I would like to make one comment on that score. A Christian holiday falling near a pagan holiday does not mean the one is an adoption of the other. The same thing is being said about Easter. But if you are perchance a Jehovah’s Witness, I’m sure that would not trouble you. But you should know that the same logic is used to discount the Bible itself, saying that because the spring and fall feasts occur near the spring and fall equinox the Jews adopted them from pagan spring and fall equinox celebrations. And they go even further and claim that since there are some similarities between the Law of Moses and the Code of Hammurabi, the Jews adopted their legal code from the Babylonians, which they also claim about the Biblical account of Noah claiming it is a knockoff of the old Babylonia Gilgamesh epoch, and on and on. Do you see how people will use even the most superficial circumstances to try to discredit the Bible? So be very careful in accepting such a faulty premise. Just because Christmas falls near winter solstice celebrations is no more an indictment of Christmas than Passover falling near spring equinox celebrations is an indictment of Passover.FHII said:Saying, "well the festival for pagan gods was 3 or 4 days earlier" doesn't dispute it.
True, which is why I have spent so much time looking into the evidence for Christmas. Personally, it really doesn’t matter to me when Jesus was born, I am just eternally grateful that he was. But as a young Christian I was stung with the accusation of idolatry for celebrating Christmas and my heart’s desire was that I try, to the best of my ability, to discover the truth of the matter so that my practice, whichever way things might shake out, would be in keeping with a clear conscience.FHII said:Furthermore, both John and Paul prophesied that hereseys would come in and even that they were already creeping in at the time they said it. So if anyone states that early Christians didn't adopt pagan practices (real ones didn't, but I'm speaking in general), it goes against what the Apostles said would happen.
My friend, so far I have only addressed one thing, shepherds being the fields at night. We haven’t even scratched the surface of all the evidence. It would be easier for me to start with the beginning of the nativity story, which is the star oracle of Balaam, and his connection with Daniel and the Zoroastrian Magi. And there we have some archaeological evidence to help shed some light on Matthew’s account. But I will follow your lead and we’ll address things that you consider to be important, or troublesome.FHII said:One last thing that I haven't seen you address.
First of all, a census was not conducted everywhere at the same time, nor was it conducted in the same way everywhere. In the Roman territories, where the bureaucratic machinery was already set up and functioning, a census went much more quickly and smoothly. But in the provinces client kingdoms it was another story. And in a volatile kingdom like Judaea and Galilee it was like setting sparks to kindling. The Romans discovered that when, in 6 A.D., Quirnius came to Judaea to take an accounting of the property of Archelaus, son of Herod, after he was deposed and Judaea was made a province. The Romans were so foolish as to think to dispense with the time-consuming and more difficult Jewish manner of conducting a census and there ensued a bloody riot. It spawned the revolutionaries called Zealots who later led the country into a bloody war that destroyed the Jewish state and brought the Mosaic economy to an end.FHII said:It was tax time. The whole world (we can read that to mean the Roman Empire) was taxed and told to go back to their home town for a census and to pay their taxes. Why would this be in December? Travel would've been difficult and I even have a Bible reference for that: Jesus said "Pray that your flight be not during winter or the Sabbath" [perhaps not an exact quote]. To require folks to travel during this month to pay the gov't would've been a colossal failure. I mean.... Obama might have tried it, but most rulers don't set decrees that will fail, especially when it comes to them getting money.
Mind you, this isn't just the middle east, it's all of the Roman empire, including Turkey, Greece, parts of nothern Europe as well. Travel was muddy, cold and unbearable in Israel at the time, but literally impossible in other parts of the Roman Empire. Furthermore, why demand a tax when there is no harvest, shipping is at a low and no ones making big money?
Poor guy thinks that by writing long essays using complicated words and very obscure mythical references he will wow people into beleiving a myth he constructed in his mind.FHII said:Again, you fail to impress me with your rebuttal. Sorry, and hope you feel better soon.
I agree with you. In those very long essays I did not see any concrete evidence supporting his alleged facts. Any reasonable scholar or historian has not been able to point to a specific date. But maybe it was pointed out in one of those VERY LONG essays and I missed it.Suhar said:Poor guy thinks that by writing long essays using complicated words and very obscure mythical references he will wow people into beleiving a myth he constructed in his mind.
the word of God says, "who can make a clean thing out of an unclean? no one." Job 14:4aspen said:i am not afraid of reclaiming pagan celebrations for God. Are you, Vale?