FHII said:
Shall I suggest you google to see photos of snow in Jerusalem? I've seen a nice one of a snowman outside the Dome of the Rock! Photographs aren't going to convince me of something that happened 2K years ago.
FHII, as I have said, I am a very honest person, and that includes not telling half truths. The picture you googled of a snowman on the Temple Mount would probably have been taken last January, when Jerusalem was hit with a
rare snowstorm that dumped from 4 to 12 inches in northern Israel and Syria. I will trust that you were not intentionally trying to misrepresent that as the normal weather conditions in Jerusalem in winter? But just to clarify here’s a couple of links to put that snowy January day in Jerusalem in context …
http://www.livescience.com/26181-snow-in-jerusalem.html
http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Jerusalem-of-white-Snow-falls-in-capital
But in addition to Jacob being out in the fields with the sheep on winter nights, you also have to address how it is that the Jews had no problem coming from all over Judaea and Galilee for the Feast of the Dedication (Chanukah) and most years that coincides with Christmas: “And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.” (John 10:22)
But also, if winters in Jerusalem, and therefore in Bethlehem, are so cold and snowy that woolly sheep can’t even be outside (which would have to be really brutal weather), why does Scripture describe winter thus: “For, lo, the winter is past, the
rain over and gone.” (Song of Solomon 2:11) If your theory was correct, it would say the
snow is over and gone.
As I have said from the beginning, normal winters in this temperate part of the Mediterranean are actually rainy and mild, nothing like those of Europe and the northern states of America. In fact, the winters are very similar to my own hometown of Mobile, Alabama, which is on the Gulf Coast. Our winters only last about 6 – 8 weeks, and are rainy with occasional drops down into the low 30’s, but then it warms right back up again. But once every 10 or 12 years we will get a rare snow event, and like Jerusalem, the whole city shuts down because, again like Jerusalem, we are simply not prepared for such weather, it happens so rarely.
But if the Scriptures I’ve cited, and the weather data and photos I’ve posted, and the historical sources that specifically speak of shepherding in Israel 2000 years ago and even address sheep in the fields of Bethlehem, if all that is not enough evidence to impress you, then pray tell us just what are you basing your opinion on, it must be some very strong evidence indeed? And please don’t say someone said that someone said, that’s called “hearsay” and it’s not evidence.
FHII said:
I do request one reference from you. I am short on time, so perhaps I'm mistaken.... Did you say that Josephus wrote that Herod ordered a census or tax in December of 5 BC? If so, may I have a reference to that..... I can't seem to find that.
Just to be sure we’re on the same page here, what I said was …
Pilgrimer said:
The decree was issued for the census in 8 B.C. and we know from historical records that it was implemented province by province. Provincial Italy was taxed in 8/7 B.C. and Rome itself in 7/6 B.C. Josephus mentions the oath of fidelity the Jews were required to take to both Caesar Augustus and King Herod, which would have been in the winter of 6 B.C., but 6000 Pharisees refused and it led to events that threw the court into turmoil and directly led to Herod executing his heir and son Antipater just before his own death.
So no, I didn’t say that Josephus wrote that Herod ordered a census in 5 B.C. I said Josephus records that the Pharisees rebelled against the oath of fidelity (swearing allegiance to Augustus and Herod) that the people were required to take, and it is mentioned in Antiquities Book 17, Chapter 2, Section 4, Passage 42 and would have been in late 6 B.C. We can only wish Josephus had given us more information about it, but he only mentions it in the context of the troubled last year of Herod’s life and what brought on his family calamities.
FHII said:
Also.... You mentioned that it is traditional (again, I don't have time to find the exact quote) that some folks believe that March 25th is the conception date of Mary. How is it that they came up with that?
Like the date for Christ’s birth, it dates back to very soon after the Apostles. Irenaeus of Lyon (130 – 202 A.D.) first wrote of it, but other early Christian writers also spoke of it, including St. Ephraim the Syrian who said that in the year of the Lord’s birth, March 25 coincided with Nisan 10, the day in which the Law of Moses commanded that the Passover Lamb be set aside to be offered at the Passover.
In the first centuries of the faith there was some disagreement on the significance of the incarnation, but there was no controversy on the date. All the major Christian churches agree on that date and observe an annual feast, and they all agree that the annunciation took place in Nazareth, but there is disagreement about the precise location. I tend to agree with the Catholic tradition which has memorialized the grotto believed to be the childhood home of Mary as the place where Gabriel visited her, because the Scripture says that the angel “eiserchomai pros” (came or entered in unto her) which to me says she was inside a building. The Greek Orthodox holds that Gabriel visited Mary at the village well while she was drawing water. But the central issue is that these traditional dates go back to the very earliest years of the faith and support the March 25 and December 25 dates as those on which Jesus was conceived and born.
And added weight is given to these traditional dates when you take into account that both Josephus as well as the Talmudic writings date for us the ordering of the priestly courses which would also fix a December birth.
And since I have been very forthcoming with references, how about you give me a reference or two to support your views against Christmas, and by references I don’t mean hearsay nor do I mean the unsubstantiated opinion of some encyclopedia or magazine authors written in the past few years who also make all kinds of statements but don’t offer any actual evidence to support them. Since you have been so unreceptive to the evidence I have posted, you must have some evidence that is
very compelling ... care to share?
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
FHII said:
... why would anyone insinuate someone doesn't celebrate Christmas because they are scared?
[/quote name="FHII" post="213991" timestamp="1386510587"
Would you be excommunicated from your organization if you celebrated Christmas?