Christ's Coming to Gather His Church is AFTER the Tribulation

[Davy]

LOL! Just what do you think, Davy, is "hot air" in what I posted? Because what I did in that post was agree with you. And then ask you to define something a little further, but still. Yes, I quoted you, and then, as an advocate of the nunc-millennial view, agreed with you, because what you said is very much along those lines, even while you rail against it. Again, that's astounding. If you're calling it "hot air," then you're saying you yourself are full of it.

Seems like you would be amenable to discussing it calmly, but maybe that's just not your thing...

Grace and peace to you.

YOU are the one not paying attention, simply because you claimed I am against the pre-mill position, which I am not!

Yet you are very correct that I am against the pre-trib and dispensationalist positions.

Maybe you don't understand what the Pre-mill position is? It's simply that Jesus's future return to reign is AFTER the "great tribulation", which means Jesus returns on the LAST DAY of this present world. There is NO pre-trib rapture attached to the Pre-mill position, which YOU obviously have wrongly assumed!

 

[Davy]

LOL. The blindness runs deep in one. Matthew 24:31 has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the Biblical Pre-Tribulation, pre 70th week rapture, pre opening of the 7 seals rapture of the Church.

Of course your heeding men's doctrine of a false Pre-trib Rapture theory has your mind backwards from the actual Bible Scripture. It's that the Pre-trib Rapture theory HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with Bible Scripture. That's the authentic Truth.

And from that false basis you are on, everything else you attach to that becomes like a waterfall down to the pit.

 

[Davy]

Hi Davy,

Jesus never revealed His purposes for the Body of Christ when He was on earth. Thus Matt.24 concerns the future of Israel and the nations.

That appears to be the doctrine of men called Dispensationalism you are preaching. That doctrine is not Biblical. It pushes the false idea that the nation and people of Israel have a separate salvation from God than Christ's Church. That simply is not so, nor written.

Gal 3:26-29
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

Apostle Paul uses the term 'Judean' ("Jew") but he really meant all Israelites, and not just Jews. The ten lost tribes of Israel that were scattered among the Gentiles first were not known as Jews. The term 'Jew' was used for those associated with the Judah kingdom (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi). You learn that history in starting in 1 Kings 11 when God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms.

And the term "Greek" is about a Hellenist, put for non-Israelite Gentiles in general.

However, the fact of the matter is why... Paul would point to both believing Israelites and Gentiles as equals in Christ's Salvation, the Church?

It is because Christ's Church inherited... God's Promises to the 'seed', because many of the chosen seed of Israel have ALSO believed on Jesus Christ. There's 10 more tribes of Israel to think about instead of just the 3 tribes of Jews. Just because the majority of Jews still reject Jesus today is NOT the measure of God's Promises to Israel. Those Promises God first gave through Abraham, and notice what Paul said there above about us spiritually being Abraham's seed!

The Hyper-Dispensationalist crowd doesn't like Galatians 3 and Romans 4 by Apostle Paul, because it shows NO DIFFERENCE between Israelite and Gentile believers on Christ in regards to those Promises.

 

[Marilyn C]

That appears to be the doctrine of men called Dispensationalism you are preaching. That doctrine is not Biblical. It pushes the false idea that the nation and people of Israel have a separate salvation from God than Christ's Church. That simply is not so, nor written.

Gal 3:26-29
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

Apostle Paul uses the term 'Judean' ("Jew") but he really meant all Israelites, and not just Jews. The ten lost tribes of Israel that were scattered among the Gentiles first were not known as Jews. The term 'Jew' was used for those associated with the Judah kingdom (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi). You learn that history in starting in 1 Kings 11 when God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms.

And the term "Greek" is about a Hellenist, put for non-Israelite Gentiles in general.

However, the fact of the matter is why... Paul would point to both believing Israelites and Gentiles as equals in Christ's Salvation, the Church?

It is because Christ's Church inherited... God's Promises to the 'seed', because many of the chosen seed of Israel have ALSO believed on Jesus Christ. There's 10 more tribes of Israel to think about instead of just the 3 tribes of Jews. Just because the majority of Jews still reject Jesus today is NOT the measure of God's Promises to Israel. Those Promises God first gave through Abraham, and notice what Paul said there above about us spiritually being Abraham's seed!

The Hyper-Dispensationalist crowd doesn't like Galatians 3 and Romans 4 by Apostle Paul, because it shows NO DIFFERENCE between Israelite and Gentile believers on Christ in regards to those Promises.

Hi Davy,

I never said that we have different salvations. No never, God forbid. What I believe, (if perhaps you had asked) is that there are different inheritances, all in Christ and because of Him, for different groups.

The Body of Christ is of Abraham`s seed - CHRIST. We are NOT of Abraham the man!!!!

Hope that clears that up.

Marilyn.

 

[Davy]

Hi Davy,

I never said that we have different salvations. No never, God forbid. What I believe, (if perhaps you had asked) is that there are different inheritances, all in Christ and because of Him, for different groups.

The Body of Christ is of Abraham`s seed - CHRIST. We are NOT of Abraham the man!!!!

Hope that clears that up.

Marilyn.

But that "different inheritances" idea is STILL... the idea of Darby's Dispensationalist theory. This is why Dispensationalists wrongly teach the idea of 2 separate gospels, one for Jews and one for Gentiles. And they claim Apostle Paul taught that when he really did not. Paul taught about two different 'administrations' of the SAME Gospel, not two different gospels.

And when Paul showed both believing Israelite and believing Gentile inherit the Promises to Abraham, together, that sealed it, showing that man's Dispensationalist theories are false.

I suggest you study Galatians 3 and Romans 4, as the Promise by Faith was given first to Abraham, and that is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ. God gave that 430 years before the giving of the law through Moses. Abraham believed God and his Faith was counted as righteousness. God also gave Abraham (and his seed) certain Promises that went with that Promise by Faith. And that is what all Christians inherit too with faithful Abraham.

Just so happens, many of the SEED of Abraham have also... believed on Jesus Christ, and I'm not speaking of Jews. Sorry, you cannot separate them from Christ's Salvation, nor from His Church.

 

[Marilyn C]

But that "different inheritances" idea is STILL... the idea of Darby's Dispensationalist theory. This is why Dispensationalists wrongly teach the idea of 2 separate gospels, one for Jews and one for Gentiles. And they claim Apostle Paul taught that when he really did not. Paul taught about two different 'administrations' of the SAME Gospel, not two different gospels.

And when Paul showed both believing Israelite and believing Gentile inherit the Promises to Abraham, together, that sealed it, showing that man's Dispensationalist theories are false.

I suggest you study Galatians 3 and Romans 4, as the Promise by Faith was given first to Abraham, and that is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ. God gave that 430 years before the giving of the law through Moses. Abraham believed God and his Faith was counted as righteousness. God also gave Abraham (and his seed) certain Promises that went with that Promise by Faith. And that is what all Christians inherit too with faithful Abraham.

Just so happens, many of the SEED of Abraham have also... believed on Jesus Christ, and I'm not speaking of Jews. Sorry, you cannot separate them from Christ's Salvation, nor from His Church.

Hi Davy,

I don`t believe in two gospels. So no need to jump to conclusions.

The `promise` singular that God gave Abraham is the Holy Spirit.

`And if you are CHRIST`S, then you are of Abraham`s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (singular)` (Gal. 3: 29)

`that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT THROUGH FAITH.` (Gal. 3: 14)

 

[Marilyn C]

So Davy, what are these PROMISES you are talking about, and with scriptures please.

You said -

God also gave Abraham (and his seed) certain Promises that went with that Promise by Faith. And that is what all Christians inherit too with faithful Abraham.

 

[n2thelight]

Zechariah 14 Isn't On This Earth As You Claim, It's The Eternal Kingdom In The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, a new creation

But of course it is

Zechariah 14:1 "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee."

"Behold", "look and see" is the command here. The events of this chapter are going to happen on the "Day of the Lord", also referred to as "the Lord's Day". When that day comes to pass, Satan will have ruled for the past five [5] month from his headquarters in Jerusalem [Revelation 9:5 and 10]. By the time that this "Day of the Lord" takes place, the entire world will be locked into the Antichrist's [Satan's] one world religious system, and the locust army of fallen angels will be in full control. Details of that time of Satan's control are written of Revelation 9, and Joel 1 and 2, and many other places.

When this "day of the Lord cometh" our generation will be well tested, with only a few passing the test and looking forward to our Lord's return. The rest of the world [including most Christians] to face the shame that came upon them in their playing the role of the harlot.

Just three and a half days prior to the this day, the entire world entered into the wildest celebration this earth has ever seen, for Satan will had killed the two troublemakers, that had cause all their problems. Those troublemakers were the "two witnesses" of God, giving the final warning of this earth age; and no one wanted that guilt put upon them. They were satisfied with their Christ, and ignorance, this Christ is the Antichrist. Now they were dead and rotting away, and the party is about over.

The world will be given ample cause to believe Satan, the Antichrist, to be the true Christ, for he will posses supernatural abilities, and one of those abilities is to bring peace to the world. Also, don't forget those countless numbers of fallen angelic beings [appearing to be men] that will come with Satan. Then too, the Churches have allowed Satan's flesh and blood kin, the "Kenites" to teach and write their doctrines for them, so even the Christians will be prepared for the grand show the Antichrist will give.

Do you get what Zechariah is telling us here? There will be no middle of the road people at this time. You will either know God's word, and what to expect, or you will not. If you do; then you are one of God's elect, and If you do not, you are not. The division is clear cut, and it is formed by your understanding of the order of the events of the end times, brought about through your study of God's word that you place in your mind. That is where the seal of God is [In your mind]. The seal is what you know to be true.

There are three Heaven and Earths ages in scripture ,not a different Heaven or Earth, rather dispensations of time .

The below explains it


Three World Ages Bible Study (biblestudygames.com)

 

[n2thelight]

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. The tribulation is OVER at the 6th SEAL.

The tribulation starts at the 6th seal 6th trump and vial ,what you need to understand is ,there are two tribulations

Two Tribulations

By Servant of God

Let's begin in Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy 4:29 but if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find Him, if thou seek Him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Deuteronomy 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto His voice;

Deuteronomy 4:31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful GOD): He will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which He sware unto them.

It's very important that you know there are two tribulations, not that there is only one which is commonly taught. The more tribulation you have, God will send you more comfort. God promises that when you have tribulation, seek Him and you shall find Him.

Now let's look at the first tribulation, and what brings it to pass. The first tribulation is the false messiah appearing on this earth first, to deceive all those that did not study God's letter. Revelation 12:7 is the reason and the cause of the first tribulation.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Revelation 12:8 And prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Satan deceives the whole earth, but not God's Elect. Talk about tribulation, that will bring it on you. In verse 9 you see some of his names and the roles he plays. But his main role is accuser. He accuses you before our God day and night.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our Goy day and night.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Satan's name is death, documentation: Hebrews 2:14

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them, “Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”

This is when Satan physically is cast out and appears in his role as false messiah, Anti Christ. he knows that he only has a short time, God shortened that time to 5 months - Revelation 9.

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Revelation 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

It's a flood of lies to deceive people.

Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Now let's go to Mark 13

Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate; but whatsoever shall be given you that hour, that speak ye; for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit.

This is when God`s Elect are delivered up, in the hour of temptation. That's the purpose of many Christians in the end days, to allow the Holy Spirit to speak through you.

Mark 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name`s sake; but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (Let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains:

That's in Jerusalem, That's where Satan will set up his capital.

Mark 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house;

Mark 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

Mark 13:17 But woe ot them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Mark 13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

When is harvest? Harvest time is in the summer not winter, so see that you are not harvested out of season.

Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

The word affliction = tribulation.

Strong's # 2347
thlipsis, from 2346; pressure, ( Literally or figuratively); KJV—afflicted, anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

Tribulation like there never was since the beginning to time.

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved; but for the elect`s sake, whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.

Mark 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, He is there; believe him not;

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:23 But take ye heed; behold, I have foretold you all things.

Now we come to the second tribulation, note it says after that tribulation.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Mark 13:25 and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

This is the second tribulation, at the 7th trump at the true Christ's return, this is God's tribulation.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 13:27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The four winds have to do with the moment of the end, That's the second tribulation, God's tribulation when the battle of Armageddon and Hamon-gog take place.

Those battles will not last 15 minutes, for we don't fight them, God fights those battles for us.

So there you have the two tribulations.

, Bible Study, theseason.org

 

[The Light]

The tribulation starts at the 6th seal 6th trump and vial ,what you need to understand is ,there are two tribulations

Hi, thanks for your post. I cannot agree with your 1st sentence. The tribulation does not start at the 6th seal, it is over at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Two Tribulations

Yes, there are two tribulations. There is the tribulation that we are currently in that will end when the Church is raptured and the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Then after that the 70th week of Daniel will begin there will be the great tribulation that the 12 tribes will be in. Immediately after the tribulation, Christ will remain in the clouds and come for the 2nd harvest and the wrath of God will begin.

It's very important that you know there are two tribulations, not that there is only one which is commonly taught. The more tribulation you have, God will send you more comfort. God promises that when you have tribulation, seek Him and you shall find Him.

Now let's look at the first tribulation, and what brings it to pass. The first tribulation is the false messiah appearing on this earth first, to deceive all those that did not study God's letter. Revelation 12:7 is the reason and the cause of the first tribulation.

We are currently in the first tribulation. That will end with the first harvest. Then God will turn His attention to His Chosen and keep His promise as their eyes will be opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Rom 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

It's a flood of lies to deceive people.

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Revelation 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

No. It is not a flood of lies. That is an incorrect conclusion.

Dan 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Dan 11
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

Now let's go to Mark 13

Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate; but whatsoever shall be given you that hour, that speak ye; for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit.

This is when God`s Elect are delivered up, in the hour of temptation. That's the purpose of many Christians in the end days, to allow the Holy Spirit to speak through you.

The elect in this case is the Jews. This occurs in the 70th week of Daniel which is about the people of Daniel. The foolish virgins, which there seems to be a plethora of around here think that have replaced Gods people. The foolish virgins are in blindness.
Dan 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Mark 13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

When is harvest? Harvest time is in the summer not winter, so see that you are not harvested out of season.

The first harvest is in the summer. It will be the pre 70th week rapture of the Church. After this rapture, part of Israel, (the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth will have their blindness removed. Then they will realize that Jesus is the prophesied Messiah.

Jer 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

The next harvest will be the fall fruit harvest, but they will have to go through the 70th week of Daniel....7 more years.

Christ will come for His bride the Church, but that is not the Chosen bride.

Gen 29
18 And Jacob loved Rachel; and said, I will serve thee seven years for Rachel thy younger daughter.

Now we come to the second tribulation, note it says after that tribulation.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Mark 13:25 and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

This is the second tribulation, at the 7th trump at the true Christ's return, this is God's tribulation.

No. You are confusing the Great Tribulation with the Wrath of God. After the tribulation is over at the 6th seal, the seventh seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 13:27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The event occurs at the 6th seal. We can see this coming of Jesus in Rev 14. (That's because the wrath of God is OVER at the 7th trumpet.) Rev 13 and 14 is another view of the seals.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The four winds have to do with the moment of the end, That's the second tribulation, God's tribulation when the battle of Armageddon and Hamon-gog take place.

Those battles will not last 15 minutes, for we don't fight them, God fights those battles for us.

So there you have the two tribulations.

There are two tribulations. The first we are in now. That tribulation will be over when the pre 70th week rapture occurs. Then the Chosen people of God have their eyes opened and end up in the great tribulation. Then the wrath of God begins. This is not tribulation, it is wrath.

 

[Keraz]

That appears to be the doctrine of men called Dispensationalism you are preaching. That doctrine is not Biblical. It pushes the false idea that the nation and people of Israel have a separate salvation from God than Christ's Church. That simply is not so, nor written.

Gal 3:26-29
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

Apostle Paul uses the term 'Judean' ("Jew") but he really meant all Israelites, and not just Jews. The ten lost tribes of Israel that were scattered among the Gentiles first were not known as Jews. The term 'Jew' was used for those associated with the Judah kingdom (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi). You learn that history in starting in 1 Kings 11 when God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms.

And the term "Greek" is about a Hellenist, put for non-Israelite Gentiles in general.

However, the fact of the matter is why... Paul would point to both believing Israelites and Gentiles as equals in Christ's Salvation, the Church?

It is because Christ's Church inherited... God's Promises to the 'seed', because many of the chosen seed of Israel have ALSO believed on Jesus Christ. There's 10 more tribes of Israel to think about instead of just the 3 tribes of Jews. Just because the majority of Jews still reject Jesus today is NOT the measure of God's Promises to Israel. Those Promises God first gave through Abraham, and notice what Paul said there above about us spiritually being Abraham's seed!

The Hyper-Dispensationalist crowd doesn't like Galatians 3 and Romans 4 by Apostle Paul, because it shows NO DIFFERENCE between Israelite and Gentile believers on Christ in regards to those Promises.

You are right about there being the ten Northern tribes still in existence, still scattered around the world. But they are God's secret and to try to identify them is fruitless, especially with those of the pre-trib disposition.
Basically, it doesn't matter, as Jesus extended His Salvation to anyone who would accept it. So the faithful people of God; the Christian Church has people from every tribe, race, nation and language as members. We are the Chosen people of God. John 15:14-19

As for the House of Judah, represented by the Jewish State of Israel; They face Judgment and punishment, as many prophesies say and only a remnant will survive. There is no general redemption for them. Jeremiah 12:14-16 plainly sets out what will happen. My People and Judah are clearly separate entities.

Those who are locked into the idea of a rapture removed, would do well to change their beliefs, or at the very least: cease promoting that theory.

 

[The Light]

Obviously, all you 'want' to see is men's false doctrine of a Pre-trib Rapture. Apostle Paul called those like yourself spiritually 'drunken in the night', comparing a drunkard on strong drink with deception, except the strong drink he pointed to is deception about the "times and the seasons" he was pointing to, which was the same teaching Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse. Thus there's more than one place that Apostle Paul pointed directly to Christ's Signs He gave in His Olivet discourse, proving that Christ's Olivet discourse is definitely for His Church!

1 Thess 5:6-7
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
KJV

You crack me up every time. I just start chuckling when I read your post. Everything goes right past you and you don't see.

If Jesus is only coming once as you erroneously proclaim, why doesn't Paul simply say, but of the "time and season"? He says "times and seasons".

Secondly, Paul tells us to watch. What are you watching for if Jesus only comes at the end of wrath? Gee, the end of wrath is not to take you by surprise. Good job.

Why would you think that you are going through the wrath of God. Paul tells us we are not appointed to wrath. Why don't you keep reading.

1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

And Jesus tells us to watch. What are we watching for? The end of wrath? Wake up dude. Get some common sense and some oil in your lamp.

Why do you think that there is a great multitude before the throne in heaven? Why do you think they are in heaven BEFORE the 7th seal of Gods wrath is opened.

Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

How can you possibly miss all this? Who teaches you this nonsense that Jesus only comes at the end of wrath? Are you allowed to tell what denomination you belong to?

 

[The Light]

Agreed... at least to an extent. I'm not sure what you think of the nature of these things ~ this "rapture from the earth," the "tribulation," and such, like how when each starts, the length of duration of each, and such. And hey, I don't know whether you will agree with this or not, but yeah, the coming of Jesus is a one-time event (which I think you agree with), but Revelation 14 is not the only place in Revelation where it is found/seen...

The second coming takes place at the 6th seal as marked by the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

It does strike me as a bit funny that you and Davy are sort of "at each other's throats" ~ so opposed to each other ~ and still I seem to be agreeing with you both, at least to a certain extent.

Grace and peace to you.

Yeah. I've never been one to stand aside when blindness starts spewing nonsense. People need to stand up and post the truth. Speaking of truth. Truth 7t7 and I get into it pretty good. We throw some real bombs. We do not agree on most points and yet he seems a mature Christian as he doesn't take offense, and neither do I despite our back and forth responses. I keep waiting for the light to go on, with some of these posters, but it never seems to. Take the following verses. This should tell you that the gathering happens before the day of wrath, but they believe that the gathering happens after wrath.

2 Thes 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Anyway brother, bless you in your pursuit of the truth.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

Matthew 24:31 is not 1 Thessalonians 4. In 1 Thes 4 the Lord Himself comes for the Church. In Matt 24:31 He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Completely different events.

Matt. 24:31 and 1 Thess. 4 are referring to the same event because Jesus is only coming back 1 time to gather His saints. There is no 2nd, 3rd, or 4th return mentioned in the Bible.

Paul was telling the Thessalonians the same thing Jesus told the original disciples about 20 years before in 31. A.D. Paul and the Thessalonians didn't have the luxury of being present when Jesus first revealed these matters to the original disciples, so Paul had to inform the Thessalonians of the exact same doctrine. The Olivet Prophecy is the nucleus of all end-time prophecy. If someone doesn't fully understand the Olivet Prophecy, they are not going to understand anything else that was prophesied to happen in the future.

Basing your own understand of events on what is commonly taught in evangelical circles isn't a smart move because they are absolutely wrong on just about everything concerning biblical matters.

Hi Davy,

I never said that we have different salvations. No never, God forbid. What I believe, (if perhaps you had asked) is that there are different inheritances, all in Christ and because of Him, for different groups.

The Body of Christ is of Abraham`s seed - CHRIST. We are NOT of Abraham the man!!!!

Hope that clears that up.

Marilyn.

Actually, that's exactly what you're saying. If you believe that there is a difference inheritance for different groups, you are saying there is a different salvation for everybody in Christ. It is simply not biblical no matter how you phrase it, because the Bible teaches in Heb. 11 that there is only 1 inheritance waiting for true Christians.

The Bible also teaches in Galatians that every true Christian is a child of Abraham, even if they cannot physically trace their ancestry back to him:

"And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Gal. 3:29

You couldn't possibly be more wrong when you say the Body of Christ is of Christ because the scriptures clearly say that the Body of Christ is Abraham's seed. It is for this reason that God makes this statement to Abraham just before He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah:

“For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice, that the LORD may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.” - Gen. 18:19

 

[Marilyn C]

Actually, that's exactly what you're saying. If you believe that there is a difference inheritance for different groups, you are saying there is a different salvation for everybody in Christ. It is simply not biblical no matter how you phrase it, because the Bible teaches in Heb. 11 that there is only 1 inheritance waiting for true Christians.

The Bible also teaches in Galatians that every true Christian is a child of Abraham, even if they cannot physically trace their ancestry back to him:

You couldn't possibly be more wrong when you say the Body of Christ is of Christ because the scriptures clearly say that the Body of Christ is Abraham's seed. It is for this reason that God makes this statement to Abraham just before He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah:

Hi Desire Of All Nations,

I think we may have to look into this a bit closer.

God tells us - `Give no offence, either to the Jews or to the Greeks (Gentile nations), or to the church of God, (Body of Christ).` (1 Cor. 10: 32)

And we can see those three groups clearly today.

So if you had children you would pass on to each, their inheritance, yet they come from the same father.

Now you said - `You couldn't possibly be more wrong when you say the Body of Christ is of Christ because the scriptures clearly say that the Body of Christ is Abraham's seed.`

`For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is JESUS CHRIST.` (1 Cor. 3: 11)

`For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.` (Gal. 3: 26)

The Body OF CHRIST is OF Abraham`s seed - CHRIST. How on earth can we be Abraham`s seed? Abraham did not die for our sins, he did not rise again and be seated at the right hand of God sending the promised Holy Spirit. That is our GOSPEL that all that was done by the Lord Jesus Christ whose seed we are of.

Marilyn.

 

[Keraz]

Why do you think that there is a great multitude before the throne in heaven? Why do you think they are in heaven BEFORE the 7th seal of Gods wrath is opened.

The Revelation 7:9, great multitude that John sees is not in heaven. They are in the holy Land, in the very place the ancient Israelites were sent away from. Romans 9:24-26
It is an addition to Revelation to say they are in heaven.

 

[n2thelight]

Here are the fact's, we ALL on this forum will stand before God .
As written some for their own good are blinded to the truth

Are you ready to bet your soul on what you believe to be true ?

I am

 

[The Light]

The Revelation 7:9, great multitude that John sees is not in heaven. They are in the holy Land, in the very place the ancient Israelites were sent away from. Romans 9:24-26
It is an addition to Revelation to say they are in heaven.

Oh. You don't like the before the throne part? Have you found a translation that agrees with what you want the Word to say?

Here we can see those people in heaven. You gotta different translation that agrees with your incorrect opinion?

Rev 19
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

 

[Keraz]

Oh. You don't like the before the throne part? Have you found a translation that agrees with what you want the Word to say?

Here we can see those people in heaven. You gotta different translation that agrees with your incorrect opinion?

Rev 19
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

We are told who it is that is allowed to cry out at times; The souls of the martyrs; Revelation 6:L9-11
God and His Throne is not confined to heaven.

Do not accuse me of misreading the Bible. I say that the people John sees in Rev 7 are on earth, proved by how that chapter sets an earth scene and never mentions heaven. It also conforms with many other Prophesies that tell how all the faithful Christian peoples will go to live in all of the holy Land. Psalms 37:29

 

[The Light]

But that "different inheritances" idea is STILL... the idea of Darby's Dispensationalist theory. This is why Dispensationalists wrongly teach the idea of 2 separate gospels, one for Jews and one for Gentiles. And they claim Apostle Paul taught that when he really did not. Paul taught about two different 'administrations' of the SAME Gospel, not two different gospels.

And when Paul showed both believing Israelite and believing Gentile inherit the Promises to Abraham, together, that sealed it, showing that man's Dispensationalist theories are false.

I suggest you study Galatians 3 and Romans 4, as the Promise by Faith was given first to Abraham, and that is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ. God gave that 430 years before the giving of the law through Moses. Abraham believed God and his Faith was counted as righteousness. God also gave Abraham (and his seed) certain Promises that went with that Promise by Faith. And that is what all Christians inherit too with faithful Abraham.

Just so happens, many of the SEED of Abraham have also... believed on Jesus Christ, and I'm not speaking of Jews. Sorry, you cannot separate them from Christ's Salvation, nor from His Church.

Who said anything about a different Gospel? It's the same Gospel, just the timing is different for the Jews and the Gentiles. The fathers of the Jews were supposed to be the first fruits of the 1st harvest, but they served other Gods and would not be the 1st harvest.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The Jews would not be able to see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That will happen when the pre 70th week rapture happens. Don't be ignorant to this.

Rom 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

This is why you have 144,000 first fruits 12,000 from each tribe. There is going to be a harvest of the 12 tribes, the seed of the woman.

I know you think you have replaced Israel, but the Word says, NO. God will keep His promise to His Chosen.

Who is the foolish virgin, the one looking for the bridegroom or the one that says the bridegroom is not coming until after the wrath of God? Best get some common sense and some oil.