Church Defied Coronavirus Order

[Joseph77]

Were the founding Fathers wrong in their rebellion? Should we still be citizens of England?

They well may have had greed as a motive. i.e. sinfulness.

But WHO according to God the Creator sets up nations and leaders, and sets the boundaries of them all ?

 

[Pearl]

*** A prophecy by David Wilkerson in 1986 ***
"I see a plague coming on the world, and the bars, churches and government will shut down. The plague will hit New York City and shake it like it has never been shaken. The plague is going to force prayerless believers into radical prayer and into their Bibles, and repentance will be the cry from the man of God in the pulpit. And out of it will come a third Great Awakening that will sweep America and the world."

 

[reformed1689]

If they have authority given to them by God and we are submitted to the them then we should do as they say, but if they do not do not also do the right things, we are not to imitate their errors. First consider what Jesus said:

"... The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers" Matt 22:2-4

Those of which Jesus spoke had the position, but they presented poor examples. Who is it today who has positions given to them by God? We should not presume a person has it simply because he says he does. Unfortunately, men, even so called men of the cloth, the clergy, also may be liars?

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit." Matt 7:15-17

But then Apostle Paul also advises us to give double honor to some? To whom?

"Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word" I Tim 5:17

To one holding a title or position in a church group who does Not labour in the Word should Not be honored!

Of course, you don't believe in the absolute sovereignty of God so of course you don't understand.

 

[amadeus]

Of course, you don't believe in the absolute sovereignty of God so of course you don't understand.

I do understand what you are saying. What you refuse to seriously consider or ask God about is that He might have given man a choice between following Him or Not. God's gave us the right to choose for a period of time. He will not interfere with that right given to us while we have time left... unless we ask and allow Him to get involved. This is what men call 'free will'. It is mentioned in many places but here is one from the OT and another one from the NT:

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Rev 3:20

Probably you have your own preconceived notions about these verses, but again I ask that you ask seriously and openly of God. Is He so silent that He will not hear a sincerely asked question? Do you really believe that no one has ever been given the opportunity to freely choose to serve Him?

 

[reformed1689]

I do understand what you are saying. What you refuse to seriously consider or ask God about is that He might have given man a choice between following Him or Not. God's gave us the right to choose for a period of time. He will not interfere with that right given to us while we have time left... unless we ask and allow Him to get involved. This is what men call 'free will'. It is mentioned in many places but here is one from the OT and another one from the NT:

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Rev 3:20

Probably you have your own preconceived notions about these verses, but again I ask that you ask seriously and openly of God. Is He so silent that He will not hear a sincerely asked question? Do you really believe that no one has ever been given the opportunity to freely choose to serve Him?

I've never said that man does not have the choice have I? Nope.

 

[amadeus]

I've never said that man does not have the choice have I? Nope.

Sorry! I did not mean to draw a wrong conclusion. You said something about me not believing God was absolutely sovereign. I believe God is sovereign, but He cannot and will not change His own Word. For our allotted period of time, we have the dominion He gave to us over ourselves. If a person does not give that dominion back to God [the person's own choice] he cannot be saved because he is unable to save himself. He must open himself up to God, which why we see this in scripture:

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Rev 3:20

Opening our door to Him is only the beginning. We must allow Him to keep the dominion in us until He has finished the necessary work in us. When a person decides to sin again, he shuts God back out. While there is time for the person the choice remains his, but without God the person cannot endure to the end with God. We always require His assistance until and if we have allowed Him to overcome all in us as Jesus overcame all in his own body of flesh.

 

[reformed1689]

Sorry! I did not mean to draw a wrong conclusion. You said something about me not believing God was absolutely sovereign. I believe God is sovereign, but He cannot and will not change His own Word. For our allotted period of time, we have the dominion He gave to us over ourselves. If a person does not give that dominion back to God [the person's own choice] he cannot be saved because he is unable to save himself. He must open himself up to God, which why we see this in scripture:

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Rev 3:20

Opening our door to Him is only the beginning. We must allow Him to keep the dominion in us until He has finished the necessary work in us. When a person decides to sin again, he shuts God back out. While there is time for the person the choice remains his, but without God the person cannot endure to the end with God. We always require His assistance until and if we have allowed Him to overcome all in us as Jesus overcame all in his own body of flesh.

Sorry, the Bible does not teach that God leaves everything up to us for a time. He pre-selected before the foundation of the world those He would save. It says that NUMEROUS times. It is quite plain. Nobody chooses God on their own. They just don't. That is made clear in Romans 3.

 

[amadeus]

Sorry, the Bible does not teach that God leaves everything up to us for a time. He pre-selected before the foundation of the world those He would save. It says that NUMEROUS times. It is quite plain. Nobody chooses God on their own. They just don't. That is made clear in Romans 3.

Thank you! I do disagree, but I thank you for at least explaining that much. What you have not explained is why you are here when only the preselected are going to make it anyway. What is the point of your interaction with others when what you do or say does not matter to you or to them or to me? Will you explain that?

 

[reformed1689]

Thank you! I do disagree, but I thank you for at least explaining that much. What you have not explained is why you are here when only the preselected are going to make it anyway. What is the point of your interaction with others when what you do or say does not matter to you or to them or to me? Will you explain that?

I am guessing the crux of your question is why evangelize if you believe the Doctrines of Grace? Is that the base of your question?

 

[amadeus]

I am guessing the crux of your question is why evangelize if you believe the Doctrines of Grace? Is that the base of your question?

Yes!

 

[reformed1689]

Yes!

Simple, because that is what God commands. The preaching of the Word of God is the agent he has selected to call the elect. We are commanded to evangelize so we do. Doesn't get any simpler than that.

 

[amadeus]

Simple, because that is what God commands. The preaching of the Word of God is the agent he has selected to call the elect. We are commanded to evangelize so we do. Doesn't get any simpler than that.

Now that is really based on faith, isn't it?

 

[reformed1689]

Now that is really based on faith, isn't it?

Not sure I understand your question...

 

[amadeus]

Not sure I understand your question...

Rhetorical question I guess. I simply meant that to believe what you believe requires faith. While I disagree with much in the details of where you are I cannot prove to you or to everyone else here that I am right and you are wrong. Only God gives any real increase. He may use me or you or a donkey to do that.

 

[reformed1689]

Rhetorical question I guess. I simply meant that to believe what you believe requires faith. While I disagree with much in the details of where you are I cannot prove to you or to everyone else here that I am right and you are wrong. Only God gives any real increase. He may use me or you or a donkey to do that.

Of course what I believe in that regard is on faith, faith that what God's word says is actually true.

 

[historyb]

They well may have had greed as a motive. i.e. sinfulness.

They had freedom in mind. Freedom to Worship God, Freedom of thought, Freedom of assembly (which the government took away now) and other freedoms is what they had as a motive

 

[amadeus]

Of course what I believe in that regard is on faith, faith that what God's word says is actually true.

I guess we are done then... for now.