God divorced Irael, its in the bible. And He still loves Her.
Colossians 2:14-16 - The Law That Was Against Us
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Jer_3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
2nd Timothy Group
Well-Known Member
The question is . . . why would God place Israel into a deep sleep so that they couldn't obey, thus being given that bill of divorce?
Romans 11:8 KJV - "(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day."
The answer: to prove His Power as He fulfills His Promises . . . The Lord Almighty has a rather Mysterious Plan to complete:
Jeremiah 31:33 NKJV - "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."
The Bible is a massive puzzle, and those that begin to recognize this, they begin to recognize and understand the Power of God. Thus, "fear of the Lord" seems like a wise thing.
Romans 11:8 KJV - "(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day."
The answer: to prove His Power as He fulfills His Promises . . . The Lord Almighty has a rather Mysterious Plan to complete:
Jeremiah 31:33 NKJV - "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."
The Bible is a massive puzzle, and those that begin to recognize this, they begin to recognize and understand the Power of God. Thus, "fear of the Lord" seems like a wise thing.
Why would you rebel against the One to Whom you are united?Then I must be insane because I sincerely believe nothing could be further from the truth. Even the good works that I do are tainted with selfishness. All my righteousness are as filthy rags. Somehow God sees through this to my heart and judges whether it's safe to save me and that I won't start or support a 2nd rebellion. Again, I can't help it if you don't understand judgment. Maybe I should start a thread on that.
If our life is Christ alive in us, where is rebellion?
Much love!
There is no conflict with what God has written on our hearts, and the Law of the covenant with Israel, as they come from the same God.
The Law written in men's hearts is their conscience, as they accuse others, and excuse themselves, this according to Romans 2. The Law of Moses will be written on Israel's hearts when the nation is redeemed, when Jesus comes.
What is written on our hearts? I would answer, Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Much love!
Why do you say "you?" I thought we established that it was a hypothetical. I know I'm getting threads mixed up a little here, but I'm not sure you're treating the subject fairly. I have no intention of rebelling. But it happens--people do it all the time. Do you deny that? I lived with this doctrine until I was 26 years old, and I never understood it. I was told, "Well, if you rebel against the Lord then you were never saved to begin with." So we're left to wonder if we were sincere when we first believed. "Am I just fooling myself? Maybe I'd better do it over again just in case I wasn't really saved." That's assurance? They can have it. We never lose our freedom of choice--not even in Heaven. Without it, there is no love. Not even holy angels are safe from rebellion without Calvary. The Cross is the centerpiece of time, space, and reality.
I meant "you" in general. That is . . . Why would someone who is united with God, and in a resurrection body - no more corrupt flesh - why would this person ever rebel? I don't see that happening.
But no, I have not seen what I believe to be a born again person dying spiritually again. Not that I'd necessarily know, mind you! But no, I haven't seen what seemed to be that. I've seen those who have later said they never really did believe, "that Jesus stuff didn't work for me", like that.
I agree, no one is save without the cross. But through the cross, in Christ, I believe we ARE safe.
Much love!
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Jesus is the epitome of life.....God's laws reflect that. Opposing God's Law is opposing God no matter how sweetly one wraps the words intended on opposition to them.
The Law of Love is, at least to me, as high about the Law of Moses as the heavens are above the earth. I have no opposition to the Law which God gave to Israel as part of His co venant with them, only, I believe the Law of Moses falls far short in describing the life of Christ lived through me.
I don't preach a lower standard than keeping the commandments of the OT, rather, I preach a higher standard in keeping His commandments to trust Him, and to love others.
Much love!
What kind of a body do you think Adam and Eve had? Lucifer? They were perfect. The Bible says as much. The reason is freedom of choice. Fruit of the knowledge of good and evil or the fruit from the tree of life. In the new heavens and earth, it won't happen because we'll have the knowledge of what sin cost Jesus.
We've been over this before, btw. I've definitely seen people turn from God. I remember as a kid, I knew an older teenager who preached and preached. He belonged to a youth group and was clearly converted. Nice as my grandma. Then after about a year of that, he turned mean as a snake practically overnight. Beat me up a time or two. I've seen that happen a number of times in church. The possibility is entirely acknowledged in the Bible.
I understand it is your belief that the ten commandments existed or were given to and understood from the very beginning of human history, as such even by Adam and Eve. Is that right? If so, may I ask, where in scriptures is such a belief found and taught?
Don't you believe that in the beginning, before they have eaten of the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve have no knowledge of good and evil? If so, how do you suppose they see the ten commandments, if at all they were given to them? Do they see them any different from the commandment of not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
I have a different take on Romans 4:15. While it says “for where no law is, there is no transgression”, it does not mean to say that for sin to exist, there must be a law given.
Tong
R1355
You're confusing the concept of "operation" with "revelation." The character of God has always been and always will be selfless, other-centered love. This is the moral code. Love God supremely and your neighbor as yourself. Things operate by laws. Mincing details about revelation won't change that. The Edenic pair learned the various details of law as soon as God saw fit. What is revealed in the Bible is enough for us today.
This is what you said in your post, "The Mosaic Law is never equated with the eternal moral code which operated from the very beginning of human history." And so I commented and posted "I understand it is your belief that the ten commandments existed or were given to and understood from the very beginning of human history, as such even by Adam and Eve. Is that right? If so, may I ask, where in scriptures is such a belief found and taught?
Don't you believe that in the beginning, before they have eaten of the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve have no knowledge of good and evil? If so, how do you suppose they see the ten commandments, if at all they were given to them? Do they see them any different from the commandment of not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?".
Your reply to my clarification post gave no answer any of my questions. I hope you would give some answers.
And now, let me comment to your post in the quote.
<<<The character of God has always been and always will be selfless, other-centered love.>>>
Where is that coming from? By saying that, it means you believe that the character of God, which you described as "selfless, other-centered love" was as such even before creation. Now, can you tell us how such character is when there was no creation ("other") yet?
<<<This is the moral code. Love God supremely and your neighbor as yourself.>>>
Is love a code? Is loving God supremely and your neighbor as yourself, a code to you?
<<<Things operate by laws.>>>
Things that you refer to there and any laws you may have knowledge of and refer to there are nothing but what God had created and set. But would you say that there was law before creation? Another question, does God operate by laws?
<<<The Edenic pair learned the various details of law as soon as God saw fit.>>>
When would you say was that?
Tong
R1356
Tong2020 said: ↑
I have a different take on Romans 4:15. While it says “for where no law is, there is no transgression”, it does not mean to say that for sin to exist, there must be a law given.
Tong
R1357
I have a different take on Romans 4:15. While it says “for where no law is, there is no transgression”, it does not mean to say that for sin to exist, there must be a law given.
If you think you agree, why did you mean when you said "It is impossible for sin to exist where there is no law.", taking reference to Romans 4:15?
Tong
R1357
Sinful mankind, as well as the born again man, are figured in the Bible to be slaves (that of sin and of righteousness, respectively). What do you say their being slaves affects the "freedom of choice"?
Tong
R1358
I will try to satisfy your demanding, manipulative curiosity. But I warn you: I have engaged with you in these verbal volleyball games before, and I've since been wised up. If you continue to pick apart and twist my words and (your) perceived (my) thoughts, you'll definitely be on your own with it.
No, that is not right. I don't know exactly when Adam and Eve were GIVEN the ten commandments. But I do know that they were in OPERATION or in FORCE from the moment they were created. A law doesn't have to be KNOWN to be IN EFFECT.
This is one place:
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
There are many others. And, no, I won't list them for you.I believe they had an acquaintance with the concept of good and evil (eat; don't eat), and that after eating the fruit of the tree they had a more intimate knowledge of it.
As the expanded human moral code.
Yes and no.
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:24)
Yes, it is. An abbreviated one.
Yes.
Yes, but he is not bound by their constraints. He created them. He cooperates with them voluntarily.
I don't know. That's why I stated it the way they did.
It would be better to ask God what He meant when He said it. They are not my words.
Born again man are not slaves, unless they turn and choose once again to serve sin. Pre-conversion man, when convicted by the Holy Ghost, receive grace to freely choose whether to serve God or serve Him not.
I find your manner of questioning unpleasant. Further replies/questions will need to be on-topic--not cherry-picked.
Sorry, but I don’t find what you say that you know there, anywhere in scriptures.
What is found in scriptures is that the ten commandments were given to the Israelites through Moses.
Also, that there is nothing written that says that God had given the ten commandments to Adam and Eve, be it before or after their eating the forbidden fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Tong
R1359
The quoted passage does not teach that the ten commandments were given to Adam and Eve, more so given and binding before or after the fall of mankind.
Tong
R1360
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