Communion vs Holy Communion

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Marymog

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Well, keep on hearing it then, sister, because ignoring my answers gets you no pass.

By the grace of God and His help, I follow Jesus Christ. He is my Good Shepherd as well as your Savior. Who are you following as your Good Shepherd? Oh, that's right. Not Jesus Christ, but an antichrist; as in a Church that takes the place of Jesus Christ as your Good Shepherd and your Savior.
Well, it does seem like you have made up your mind about this, sister. I reckon the Catholic church means more to you than Jesus Christ ever will. I mean, after all, Church traditions trumps His words. So how am I supposed to take that any other way?
But I am confident He will change that mentality of yours one day, sister, even if it means you get left behind for it. although I do so hope otherwise.
I have nothing more to share with you on the matter other than Jesus Christ came first and He is the Good News to man; not the Catholic Church.
Thank you JIF.

You are a church of one. You believe your interpretation of scripture and set your own dogma/doctrine; You believe in You. I accept the interpretation/dogma/doctrine of different men than you. The greatest theologians The Church has to offer. I believe in them. You put yourself above them. How sad.

I can think of no reason you had to be so mean and unchristian like in the words that you chose to write me. I feel bad for you that you felt the need to talk that way to me. It certainly was anti-Christian the way you just treated me. Isn't the antichrist anti-Christian?

You shouldn't be so confident and condescending. ;)

I love you and will pray for you.......Mary
 

Marymog

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Not bothering any more, sister. You were not having a conversation with me at all, and you were doing it on purpose too.
Thank you JIF.

I get it. You lack the ability and facts to articulate a educated and well thought out response to very SIMPLE questions based on statements YOU made. It is easier for you to turn it around on me and accuse me of not trying to have a conversation.

Thank you for your (failed) efforts to articulate your beliefs. At least you tried. Maybe you can get back with me when your ready with a response? (1 Peter 3:15)

Mary
 

BreadOfLife

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So look at this list of the years in how each catholic doctrine were developed that formed catholicism today and you will see that many Catholic doctrines were not taught as 2,000 year old after all.
Timeline of Roman Catholicism
  1. The Rosary – 1090 AD
  2. Indulgences – 1190 AD
  3. Transubstantiation (Innocent III) – 1215 AD
  4. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest – 1215 AD
  5. Adoration of the wafer (Host) – 1220 AD
  6. Cup forbidden to the people at communion – 1414 AD
  7. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma – 1439 AD
  8. The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed – 1439 AD
  9. Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent – 1545 AD"

    I'll stop there, but as you can see..... the Church/Catholic did not always have their tradition as equal authority with the Bible for 2,000 years.
So... doctrines taught by the Church/Catholic.. not so 2,000 years old after all. And you wonder why there are Protestants.
I see that you've been polluted by Loraine Boettner's list. Boettner's book, "Roman Catholicicsm" has LONG been referred to as the "Anti-Catholic Bible" - and with good reason. Anti-Catholics base their opinions on lies, myths, half-truths and fairy tales - so Boettner's book is aptly-deserving os this moniker.

Let's take a closer look at the short version of Boettner's List of Lies that you referenced . . .

1. The Rosary – 1090 AD
The Rosary is a Biblically-based intercessory prayer that reflects on various events in the life of Christ. Secondly, its origin is traditionally associated with St. Dominic and was not “invented” by Peter the Hermit

2. Indulgences – 1190 AD
First of all – Boettner’s original list says that the SALE of Indulgemces goes back to this date (1190) – so YOU screwed up. Indulgences have never been “sold” by the Church. This is one of those urban myths that grew over time – with the help of dishonest people like Boettner and other anti-Catholics.

In fact, the Council of Trent issued some severe reforms regarding the practice of granting indulgences. Because of previous abuses by some individuals, “in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions” (Catholic Encyclopedia). This illustrated the Church's seriousness about stopping abuses from indulgences. This fictitious date of 1190 only serves to further expose Boettner’s bogus list.

3. Transubstantiation (Innocent III) – 1215 AD
This is one of the most deceitful claims on Boettner’s list. A declaration or decree of a Christian
belief does NOT mean that it was “invented” at that particular time. If that were so, ALL of the
creeds would be considered, “inventions”. The belief in Transubstantiation is derived from John 6,
where Jesus instructed his disciples to eat his flesh and drink his blood. At the Last Supper, he showed
them the means by which this was to be done (with bread and wine).

In 1 Corinthians 11:27-29, St. Paul warns us:
“Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.” A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup.
For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.”


That’s a pretty harsh warning – if it were only a "symbol" as most non-Catholics believe, which it is not.
As for Transubstantiation - the only thing “new” about it at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 was the
term assigned to what was always believed - “Transubstantiation”. As for the word itself, it was first
used by the theologians Magister Roland about 1150, Stephen of Tournai about 1160, and Peter Comestor about 1170. ALL before your fictitious date of 1215.

We see that the Early Church vehemently believed in this doctrine in the writings of the Early Church Fathers, such as Ignatius of Antioch, Tertullian and Cyril of Jerusalem. They ALL wrote about Transubstantiation in the first 4 centuries of the Church

4. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest – 1215 AD
We read in the 1st century document, The Didache (Teachings of the 12 Apostles) in AD 50 that people were to confess their sins TO THE CHURCH. Paul explicitly writes about this in 2 Cor. 5:18-20 and 2 Cor. 2:10-11.

In about 244, Origen speaks of the sinner who “does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of
the Lord”.
A few years later, Cyprian of Carthage stated, “Finally, of how much greater faith and more
salutary fear are they who...confess to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow,
making an open declaration of conscience.” (C&F p.43)


5. Adoration of the wafer (Host) – 1220 AD
WRONG
.

At the beginning of the 2nd century, Ignatius of Antioch – student of St. John the Apostle, wrote
about the heretics of his time who rejected this belief:

“They (the heretics) abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the
Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that
Father, in his goodness, raised up again
. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes
(Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 110]).”


In his Epistle to the Romans (110 AD), he wrote "I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the
pleasures of this life. I desire the Bread of God, which is the Flesh of Jesus Christ...and for drink I
desire His Blood
" [59].


6. Cup forbidden to the people at communion – 1414 AD
BOTH
the Body and Blood are contained in the host and the cup. The communicant therefore needs to receive only ONE or the other. In the 15th century, one of the reasons for restricting the cup was due to the fact that some people misunderstood the Eucharist and thought it had to be received under both forms. By restricting communicants to the host alone the Church emphasized the true doctrine. This was a discipline – not a matter of doctrine, as the cup is again available to the entire congregation.

7. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma – 1439 AD

The belief in Purgatory has been believed and written about since the dawn of the Church. One need only open up the Bible and read the following Scripture verses that support the idea of final purgation before entry into heaven to see where the Early Church got their ideas: Matt. 5:25-26, Matt. 12:32, Matt. 18:32-35, Luke 12:58-59,1 Cor. 3:12-15.

Along with the Scriptures, Early Church writings from such giants of the early Christianity faith like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Tertullian, Cyprian, Cyril of Jerusalem, John Chrysostom, Ambrose of Milan and Augustine support the Catholic position that this was always a belief of the Church.

8. The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed – 1439 AD
There is so much wrong about this one that I could write a 10 page essay.
Suffice it to say - ALL of the sacraments had already been believed in, taught and practiced sine the beginning of the Church.

9. Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent – 1545 AD.
WRONG
again.
We read in 2 Thess. 2:15 . . .
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, EITHER BY an ORAL STATEMENTOR BY a LETTER from us."

Right here – Scripture itself puts Sacred Tradition ON PAR with Scripture.

So much for your BOGUS list . . .
 

Truth7t7

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I don't eat anything in communion because I don't celebrate communion because it is Roman Catholic and I am not a Roman Catholic. Giving it another name does not alter the fact that it is Roman Catholic. Neither did Jesus or the New Testament Church take communion. They ate meals together where there was some different emphasis put on the bread and wine that was eaten as part of the meal.
I agree the believers came together in fellowship around the meal table, and presented the Lord's supper, fact in history.

Many false practices have been brought into the church, this being one.

No waffer god needed :)
 

BreadOfLife

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I agree the believers came together in fellowship around the meal table, and presented the Lord's supper, fact in history.
Many false practices have been brought into the church, this being one.
No waffer god needed :)
To which "false" practices are you referring?
 

Truth7t7

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Thank you JIF.

You are a church of one. You believe your interpretation of scripture and set your own dogma/doctrine; You believe in You. I accept the interpretation/dogma/doctrine of different men than you. The greatest theologians The Church has to offer. I believe in them. You put yourself above them. How sad.

I can think of no reason you had to be so mean and unchristian like in the words that you chose to write me. I feel bad for you that you felt the need to talk that way to me. It certainly was anti-Christian the way you just treated me. Isn't the antichrist anti-Christian?

You shouldn't be so confident and condescending. ;)

I love you and will pray for you.......Mary
NewYorkPost

Vatican cops bust drug-fueled gay orgy at home of cardinal’s aide

Vatican police raided a drug-fueled gay-sex party at an apartment belonging to an aide of one of Pope Francis’ key advisers, according to a new report.

The Holy Father is “enraged,” since the home, inhabited by Francesco Cardinal Coccopalmerio’s secretary, belongs to the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith — the arm charged with tackling clerical sex abuse, the Italian paper Il Fatto Quotidiano reported.

Cops raided the apartment in late June after neighbors voiced concern about multiple people acting strangely while streaming in and out of the residence, the newspaper reported Wednesday.

Once police were inside the apartment, they said they found multiple men engaged in rampant drug use and homosexual activity.

They then arrested the priest — an aide to one of Pope Francis’ key advisers — after taking him to a clinic to detox from the drugs he’d ingested.


The unnamed aide is now on a spiritual retreat in a convent in Italy, the paper said.

The aide’s apartment building is the same place where Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger lived for about 25 years before becoming Pope Benedict XVI.




 
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Marymog

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NewYorkPost

Vatican cops bust drug-fueled gay orgy at home of cardinal’s aide

Vatican police raided a drug-fueled gay-sex party at an apartment belonging to an aide of one of Pope Francis’ key advisers, according to a new report.

The Holy Father is “enraged,” since the home, inhabited by Francesco Cardinal Coccopalmerio’s secretary, belongs to the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith — the arm charged with tackling clerical sex abuse, the Italian paper Il Fatto Quotidiano reported.

Cops raided the apartment in late June after neighbors voiced concern about multiple people acting strangely while streaming in and out of the residence, the newspaper reported Wednesday.

Once police were inside the apartment, they said they found multiple men engaged in rampant drug use and homosexual activity.

They then arrested the priest — an aide to one of Pope Francis’ key advisers — after taking him to a clinic to detox from the drugs he’d ingested.


The unnamed aide is now on a spiritual retreat in a convent in Italy, the paper said.

The aide’s apartment building is the same place where Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger lived for about 25 years before becoming Pope Benedict XVI.
Ok???

Not sure what the sin of one man in Italy has to do with you believing your interpretation of scripture and you setting your own dogma/doctrine. Or you being so mean and unchristian like in the words that you chose to write me.

I guess if your response makes you feel justified I am more concerned for you now than I was before.

Maybe you should go and receive Holy Communion? ;)

Mary
 

BreadOfLife

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NewYorkPost
Vatican cops bust drug-fueled gay orgy at home of cardinal’s aide
Vatican police raided a drug-fueled gay-sex party at an apartment belonging to an aide of one of Pope Francis’ key advisers, according to a new report.

The Holy Father is “enraged,” since the home, inhabited by Francesco Cardinal Coccopalmerio’s secretary, belongs to the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith — the arm charged with tackling clerical sex abuse, the Italian paper Il Fatto Quotidiano reported.

Cops raided the apartment in late June after neighbors voiced concern about multiple people acting strangely while streaming in and out of the residence, the newspaper reported Wednesday.

Once police were inside the apartment, they said they found multiple men engaged in rampant drug use and homosexual activity.

They then arrested the priest — an aide to one of Pope Francis’ key advisers — after taking him to a clinic to detox from the drugs he’d ingested.


The unnamed aide is now on a spiritual retreat in a convent in Italy, the paper said.

The aide’s apartment building is the same place where Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger lived for about 25 years before becoming Pope Benedict XVI.
Not sure what your point is.

A Vatican employee was caught doing some very bad things.
There has never been a Protestant caught doing very bad things??

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/03/us/04pastorcnd.html
The Rev. Ted Haggard, the former president of the National Association of Evangelicals and one of the nation’s most influential Christian leaders, admitted today that he had purchased the illegal drug methamphetamine from a gay escort in Denver, but denied that he ever had sex with the man.

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1988/05/25/Prostitute-says-Swaggart-kinky-and-cheap-too/2208580536000/
BATON ROUGE, La. -- Prostitute Debra Murphree says evangelist Jimmy Swaggart was 'kinky and cheap too' during their 20 liaisons, having sex with her only once but demanding that she perform a variety of obscene acts in his Lincoln Town Car.

https://people.com/crime/jessica-hahn-jim-bakker-tammy-faye-scandal-made-me-famous/
Among the newspaper’s findings: that Jim Bakker had paid $279,000 to Jessica Hahn, a church secretary.
Soon, the story became more tawdry. Hahn alleged that she had been raped by Bakker in 1980, when she was 21. He acknowledged that he had once had sex with her, but insisted that the sex was consensual.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/600115213/Members-arrest-as-BTK-killer-shakes-church.html
WICHITA, Kan. — They worshipped next to Dennis L. Rader for years, sharing the same pews and singing from the same hymnals.
They knew him as a Cub Scout leader, a respected church official, a kind friend.
Now, members of Christ Lutheran Church must confront the possibility that 59-year-old Rader is something else: The BTK serial killer, blamed for 10 deaths in the Wichita area from 1974 to 1991.
Rader, a church member for 30 years, an usher and president of the church council, was arrested Friday in suburban Park City, where he worked as a city codes enforcement supervisor.



Evil is EVERYWHERE - even among Christ's followers. The Bible WARNS us about this.
So, instead of pointing fingers at everybody else - clean up the mess in your OWN back yard (Matt. 7:1-5) . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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I agree the believers came together in fellowship around the meal table, and presented the Lord's supper, fact in history.
Many false practices have been brought into the church, this being one.
No waffer god needed
To which "false" practices are you referring?
Ummmmmm, are you ever going to answer my question - or have you gotten so used to running away that you can't stop??

Care to enlighten us about these so-called "false practices"??
 

Stranger

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Ummmmmm, are you ever going to answer my question - or have you gotten so used to running away that you can't stop??

Care to enlighten us about these so-called "false practices"??

I would like to just wash that wafer down with a little wine.

Stranger
 

BreadOfLife

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I would like to just wash that wafer down with a little wine.

Stranger
Well, I was addressing "Truth7t7" who chose to run instead of address the challenge - but you'll do.
How is the above-statement a "false" pagan practice??
 

Stranger

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Well, I was addressing "Truth7t7" who chose to run instead of address the challenge - but you'll do.
How is the above-statement a "false" pagan practice??

Well, the above statement is mine which is not false. So if you want me to address a certain statement, then you need to present it.

As far as my statement, yes, I would still like some wine to wash down that wafer. Just like the Roman priests do. But, like the Roman laity, don't do.

Is, not allowing the wine a pagan practice? I don't know. But I know every member of the Church of Jesus Christ should be allowed to partake of both the body and blood of the Saviour at the Lords table. And the Roman church refuses the wine to the laity.

I know, I know, you are going to say you offer it. More Roman B.S. If you don't drink it, you don't partake.

Stranger
 

BreadOfLife

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Well, the above statement is mine which is not false. So if you want me to address a certain statement, then you need to present it.

As far as my statement, yes, I would still like some wine to wash down that wafer. Just like the Roman priests do. But, like the Roman laity, don't do.

Is, not allowing the wine a pagan practice? I don't know. But I know every member of the Church of Jesus Christ should be allowed to partake of both the body and blood of the Saviour at the Lords table. And the Roman church refuses the wine to the laity.

I know, I know, you are going to say you offer it. More Roman B.S. If you don't drink it, you don't partake.

Stranger
NOT really sure why you keep perpetuating this anti-Catholic lie - but, as always, it's my pleasure to publicly prove you wrong . . .

IMG_0784.JPG


You really need to do your homework before making these asinine little accusations of yours.
I'm embarrassed for you . . .
 
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Stranger

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NOT really sure why you keep perpetuating this anti-Catholic lie - but, as always, it's my pleasure to publicly prove you wrong . . .

IMG_0784.JPG


You really need to do your homework before making these asinine little accusations of yours.
I'm embarrassed for you . . .

That picture provides nothing.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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These are pictures of an exception of Roman churches. See www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com.only-the-priest-receives-both-forms-of-holy-communion-at-traditional-catholic-latin-mass. Article dated May, 20, 2014.

"Many ask why at the Latin Mass the lay people only receive the Holy Host and do not also receive the Precious Blood of Jesus. This is explained very well in the documents of the Council of Trent."

"There is no Divine precept binding the laity or non celebrating priests to receive the sacrement under both kinds." I guess they never read (Matt. 26:26-29)

"Christ is really present and is received whole and entire, body and blood, soul and Divinity, under either species alone" Where did they get that idea?

"Catholics in most countries only receive the Holy Host."

"Most American Catholics will be very surprised to find out that when attending Holy Mass at the Vatican, you will only receive the Holy Host." That is due most likely to America being founded a Protestant nation. So, you can thank the Reformers for any opportunity at partaking correctly of the Lords Supper.

"As of right now, the permission to the reception of the Precious Blood of Jesus by the laity in the Novus Ordo Mass, is only an indult. An indult is an exception, a privilage, that can be taken away at any time so deemed necessary. It is not a right.

Again, I guess they never read (Matt. 26:26-29).

Yes, you got some cute pictures of the exception to the rule. But most will follow the rule and only give the wafer. Thus denying the Blood to the Laity. And even those churches that are an exception can have it taken away at any time.

Since you like 'pictures' you should now change your avatar and add a glass of wine to that wafer. Just to make it picture right.

Stranger
 
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BreadOfLife

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These are pictures of an exception of Roman churches. See www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com.only-the-priest-receives-both-forms-of-holy-communion-at-traditional-catholic-latin-mass. Article dated May, 20, 2014.

"Many ask why at the Latin Mass the lay people only receive the Holy Host and do not also receive the Precious Blood of Jesus. This is explained very well in the documents of the Council of Trent."

"There is no Divine precept binding the laity or non celebrating priests to receive the sacrement under both kinds." I guess they never read (Matt. 26:26-29)

"Christ is really present and is received whole and entire, body and blood, soul and Divinity, under either species alone" Where did they get that idea?

"Catholics in most countries only receive the Holy Host."

"Most American Catholics will be very surprised to find out that when attending Holy Mass at the Vatican, you will only receive the Holy Host." That is due most likely to America being founded a Protestant nation. So, you can thank the Reformers for any opportunity at partaking correctly of the Lords Supper.

"As of right now, the permission to the reception of the Precious Blood of Jesus by the laity in the Novus Ordo Mass, is only an indult. An indult is an exception, a privilage, that can be taken away at any time so deemed necessary. It is not a right.

Again, I guess they never read (Matt. 26:26-29).

Yes, you got some cute pictures of the exception to the rule. But most will follow the rule and only give the wafer. Thus denying the Blood to the Laity. And even those churches that are an exception can have it taken away at any time.

Since you like 'pictures' you should now change your avatar and add a glass of wine to that wafer. Just to make it picture right.

Stranger
Ahhhhhh, so you finally admit that you haven't been getting your information from the Catholic Church. Rather, you have gone to a radical Traditionalist dissident, offshoot group to get your FALSE information. The site you quoted is a Sedevacantist sect (sorry for the big word) that is NOT in communion with the Catholic Church.

Don't get your Catholic Theology from ANTI-Catholic sources, Einstein. Otherwise you end up being publicly exposed as you have here . . .
 
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Stranger

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Ahhhhhh, so you finally admit that you haven't been getting your information from the Catholic Church. Rather, you have gone to a radical Traditionalist dissident, offshoot group to get your FALSE information. The site you quoted is a Sedevacantist sect (sorry for the big word) that is NOT in communion with the Catholic Church.

Don't get your Catholic Theology from ANTI-Catholic sources, Einstein. Otherwise you end up being publicly exposed as you have here . . .

I see you don't have anything to prove their information was false. Here's some more.

This is from www.newadvent.org/cathen/04175a.htm

"Communion under one kind is the reception of the Sacrement of the appearance of bread alone, or of wine alone. Communion under two or both kinds, the distinct reception under two or both species, sub utraque specie, at the same time."

Under the heading 'Catholic doctrine and modern discipline'.

"1.(b.) There is no Divine precept binding the laity or non-celebrating priests to receive the sacrement under both kinds. (Trent, sess. XXI c.i.)"

"1.(c.) ...Christ is really present and is received whole and entire, body and blood, soul and Divinity, under either species alone;..."

"1.(d.) ...Hence although the usage of communion under two kinds was not infrequent in the early ages [ab initio] of the Christian religion, yet the custom in this respect having changed almost universally [latissime] in the course of this time, holy mother the church, mindful of her authority in the administration of the sacrements, and influenced by weighty and just reasons, has approved the custom of communicating under one one kind, and decreed it to have the force of a law, which may not be set aside or changed but by the Church's own authority. (Trent Scss. XXI c.ii.)

"Not only, therefore, is Communion under both kinds not obligatory on the faithful, but the chalice is strictly forbidden by ecclesiastical law to any but the celebrating priest. These decrees of the Council of Trent were directed against the Reformers of the sixteenth century who, on the strength of John 6:54, Matt. 26:27, and Luke 22:17-19, enforced in most cases by a denial of the Real Presence and of the Sacrifice of the Mass, maintained the existence of a Divine precept obliging the faithful to receive under both kinds, and denounced the Catholic practice of witholding the cup from the laity as a sacrilegious mutilation of the sacrement..."

Stranger