Could the disciples have lost their salvation?

[VictoryinJesus]

spiritual circumcision for me is setting aside the flesh to walk in the Spirit, so yes I would say that a believer can return to walking in the flesh if they choose to.

Spiritual circumcision is made without hands, made of God ...how then does it become man sets aside flesh...when God set flesh aside? If grace is a balancing act between flesh and Spirit then we are in trouble. Here again, going back over and over to what man can do in the parable of the sower...the only ground which gives increase is His (good ground)and that increase is given of God.

So it "withered away," or in other words it died. The implication is clear then, that the seed of God's word died away within them, and with it their spiritual life.

It is seed in the flesh which withers. It is the seed in flesh that gets eatten by fowls. It is seed in the flesh the falls by the wayside. It is the seed in the flesh that falls on stony ground. Consider God said HE would remove the heart of stone. Discussing two totally different things ...what is possible for man which is nothing. What is possible for God which is: nothing is impossible for God. The fruit of the Spirit. No where does it say the fruit of the flesh. No where.

2 Peter 1:4-9
[4] Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. [5] And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; [6] And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; [7] And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. [8] For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [9] But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Fruit of the Spirit...all those things added (by the Spirit of God)and you shall never be barren. Those fruits. Do we see them? Urging one in the flesh to continue on to make their calling certain is one thing...claiming those born of the Spirit of God and are children of God are then cast out...that is the bondwoman who is cast out....NOT the freewoman. Can the children of the free woman lose their liberty in Christ?

Romans 8:20-21
[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Delivered from corruption: outward=corruptible. Inward=hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible...1 Peter 3:3-4
[3] Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; [4] But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

 

[brakelite]

We put the flesh to death by not feeding it. Watching television every nightn listening to the world's music and rebelling in Hollywood brings life to the flesh.. We do have our work to do.
We enliven the spirit by reading the word, prayer, and service. God honours our commitment and uses those methods as His appointed agents in strengthening His people.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

We put the flesh to death by not feeding it.

Flesh is put to death (crucified) by submission to the obedience of Christ. Anything above Christ is vain imagination . 2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

 

[Hidden In Him]

Spiritual circumcision is made without hands, made of God ...how then does it become man sets aside flesh...when God set flesh aside?

It takes place through baptism in water (representing death to the old man/ the fleshly man) and baptism in the Holy Spirit, which man cannot do of himself. But this is something the believer is commanded to continue to walk in. If someone sets aside the flesh in name only, or simply as a theological concept and not as a reality in their lives, then they are misrepresenting the truth.

Here again, going back over and over to what man can do in the parable of the sower...the only ground which gives increase is His (good ground)and that increase is given of God

You make it here sound like the ground can do nothing of itself, but the implication of the parable is that the ground itself determines how much it will allow the seed to grow. Otherwise the parable has no point, and contains no instruction. If you are taking the position that believers play no part in how much the word will grow within them, all I can say is that we strongly disagree.

 

[ScottA]

I'm countering your assertion that God empowers sinners to sin more and bigger sins.

Bring it on.

Bring what exactly? Not sure what you mean here.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It takes place through baptism in water (representing death to the old man/ the fleshly man) and baptism in the Holy Spirit, which man cannot do of himself. But this is something the believer is commanded to continue to walk in. If someone sets aside the flesh in name only, or simply as a theological concept and not as a reality in their lives, then they are misrepresenting the truth.

There is Spiritual fruit. Spiritual. Never said there shouldn’t be. Are the fruits of the Spirit not the taste of the heavenly of the world to come which overcomes this world. The children are called to overcome. Not saying they are not. Only can’t agree once (Spiritual) fruit springs forth that He doesn’t finish the work He has begun.

You make it here sound like the ground can do nothing of itself, but the implication of the parable is that the ground itself determines how much it will allow the seed to grow. Otherwise the parable has no point, and contains no instruction. If you are taking the position that believers play no part in how much the word will grow within them, all I can say is that we strongly disagree.

The ground is the heart, yeah? God gives the increase. We can agree to disagree but we can also agree to pray for each other ...that we are neither barren nor fruitless.

 

[brakelite]

Your question names the Holy Spirit...but in my explanations, I did not name Him. That is because, and we should know, that there are both Holy and unholy spirits at work. But to think that there is another source for either, other than God...is not biblical: All power and creation in heaven and earth belong to God. There is no other.

God was not, nor ever was, nor is He now, the instigator or source of evil. To believe such is to offer an excuse for sin. "Oh poor me...I can't help myself... It's God's fault". No, of you sin, it's on you. No-one else.

 

[brakelite]

They're is way too much "spiritualising" away eternal realities. I am beginning to sense the same kind of abhorrence that Paul must have felt hearing all the gnostic and Greek philosophising as he walked through Athens on the way to Mars Hill.
I agree with Hidden. If the themes and principles in scripture do not have a profound and real effect on our daily lives... Changing our habits and lifestyles bringing out characters into harmony with Christ, then our religion is nothing but philosophical vanity.

 

[ScottA]

Yes, this is true, when you speak of the spirit poured out at Pentecost, I take you to mean the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:4-8
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

But you are saying that the spirit given on Pentecost was not the Holy Spirit. But it was God's spirit, eh?

No, again...you are lumping together both the good and the evil. I am not, but I am explaining that the timing was the same, because that is the word from Joel the prophet. So the account confirmed by Peter at Pentecost is only half of the spiritual truth - not because I say so, but because God has said so...and you simply missed the half of it.

So . . . what are you saying about this Spirit given at Pentecost? God's Spirit? Or not? Holy? Or not?

Please be clear.

The account of the prophecy of Joel the prophet confirmed by Peter at Pentecost was only Holy, but only holy to those who were amazed...and also to you. But there was also the evil spirit and mockers, and Peter also answered them. But you have not considered it fully to include not only the Holy Spirit but also "Blood and fire and vapor of smoke", and "darkness." Thus, you have only considered what the spirit of God does with "whoever calls on the name of the Lord", but have completely left out those who do not and what the spirit of God does with them...just as it was even then, beginning with the mockers.

You are the one saying that the spirit given at Pentecost causes evil men to flourish in their evil.

I see that as a most extreme contradiction.

Of course God made everything, and declared everything good. But God does not declare sin good, rather He condemns it.

You see it as extreme? Good, because it is. Do you not understand that everyday under the sun is extreme in just this same way, having both good and evil, darkness and light? And Who is the Creator of it "all"...just as I have been saying?

What does this mean? It sounds like just another way of saying the Holy Spirit empowers sin. A defense of your assertion, but no Scripture that teaches this.

The "two-edged sword" is not a defense, it is an offense, the Word of God. Again...I did not say the "Holy" Spirit empowers sin. That is a contradiction in terms. I said "the spirit of God." In His hands is both a blessing and a curse...all by His power, and no other. He alone has placed before us life and also death...and all that comes with both.

You said the Spirit given at Pentecost causes the evil to flourish in their evil.

This is like saying the policeman put his foot down on the speeder's gas pedal.

You're changing what you are saying here.

A man who drives over the speed limit to conduct lawful business is not speeding, example, the policeman you've mentioned, the ambulance driver, and the private citizen in a private car rushing someone in an emergency to the hospital.

But it most certainly violates God's holiness to empower the sinner to sinner, to super-charge his sinfulness by the power of His Holy Spirit. I still maintain this is blasphemy, at least in my mind.

No...I did not. I added to what you thought you knew of Pentecost as only being "Holy" to also include "all" that was foretold, which you did not consider, and therefore it is an offense to you.

God knew that evil men would kill His Son. And God wanted His Son killed as the perfect sacrifice to save man from his sin.

But God did not make those men kill Jesus, and holds them responsible. Do you see the distinction?

You make God the only motive force in the universe, and everything that happens happens because God caused it to happen.

But the Bible teaches that God gives away bits of sovereignty, the ability to choose, and those choices that WE make have consequences that we garner for ourselves.

God says, choose this day whom you will serve. God says, repent - stop being a sinner. Because if we do not, He will hold US responsible. It will be our doing.

This is a rabbit trail we should probably not take. But, no, not exactly...God did not only know what would happen - He wrote it, before the foundation of the world. And if written by God, inevitable; and if inevitable, then by God. "All" of it, just as it is written.

What is missing here however, and what is obviously disturbing to you (and many), is that God is the Author of both light and darkness, under which headings comes both good and evil. But this He does, not because He is evil doing evil. On the contrary, He is good doing good (...just as a policeman who speeds to catch a speeder, does what is considered bad to bring about good). But even that analogy has not sunk in. If the very same act by a policeman (a good man) which is considered a bad act, is actually good. If it is also done by an evil man, and is bad...how are they the same? They are not...that is, of course, unless you put them together as you have. But God has not put them together (nor have I), but He has and is, dividing them daily with every evening and morning.

 

[Hidden In Him]

There is Spiritual fruit. Spiritual. Never said there shouldn’t be. Are the fruits of the Spirit not the taste of the heavenly of the world to come which overcomes this world. The children are called to overcome. Not saying they are not. Only can’t agree once (Spiritual) fruit springs forth that He doesn’t finish the work He has begun.

So what part do we play then, in your opinion? Any?

The ground is the heart, yeah? God gives the increase

No, LoL. The ground represents different types of believers. Hence some are good ground for the word to grow in, and some are not. God gives the increase by shedding light upon the word, but if we crowd out that light because the anxieties of this world are filling our minds and attention instead of focusing on Him and letting Him teach us, then we have not done OUR part in helping the word to grow within us. I think the word teaches very clearly that it is not all God's responsibility. We must sit at His feet, or we do not fulfill what was required of us, in giving the Holy Spirit the opportunity to teach us.

 

[ScottA]

God was not, nor ever was, nor is He now, the instigator or source of evil. To believe such is to offer an excuse for sin. "Oh poor me...I can't help myself... It's God's fault". No, of you sin, it's on you. No-one else.

Another offended soul. If the darkness offends you, read the whole thread...and the whole Word.

Is Satan and all that is evil a god, or a son? Your response, says he is a god. You are wrong. He is not. He is a son.

 

[ScottA]

They're is way too much "spiritualising" away eternal realities. I am beginning to sense the same kind of abhorrence that Paul must have felt hearing all the gnostic and Greek philosophising as he walked through Athens on the way to Mars Hill.
I agree with Hidden. If the themes and principles in scripture do not have a profound and real effect on our daily lives... Changing our habits and lifestyles bringing out characters into harmony with Christ, then our religion is nothing but philosophical vanity.

God is spirit. "Spiritualizing" is therefore godly. You are against it. Fine. Thanks for the personal testimony. Now, move to the left.

 

[Hidden In Him]

They're is way too much "spiritualising" away eternal realities. I am beginning to sense the same kind of abhorrence that Paul must have felt hearing all the gnostic and Greek philosophising as he walked through Athens on the way to Mars Hill.
I agree with Hidden. If the themes and principles in scripture do not have a profound and real effect on our daily lives... Changing our habits and lifestyles bringing out characters into harmony with Christ, then our religion is nothing but philosophical vanity.

I always sense as if the opposing position simply cannot be that believers have no responsibility, but I struggle to understand what they believe our responsibilities are. And as quickly as said responsibilities get defined, they immediately get passed off upon God, as if should the believer himself play any part at all in things it becomes a sin.

Thanks for your responses, Brakelite. I truly and honesty try to understand their position when these kind of conversations come up, but every time I just come away confused.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

So what part do we play then, in your opinion?

The ground represents different types of believers. Hence some are good ground for the word to grow in, and some are not.

Not sure how you can say the ground is not the heart the seed is to be sown into.

Mark 7:21-23 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, [22] Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: [23] All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Luke 8:12
[12] Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

So what part do we play then, in your opinion? Any?

In my opinion? That is it...just an opinion? Our part is ...weakness. Our part is weakness so that the POWER of God is seen and NOT the power of man which is nothing to begin with.

Romans 9:16
[16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

1 Corinthians 1:25
[25] Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

So concerned with what is our part when we should be more concerned with His part since it is the ONLY part that overcomes.

 

[Hidden In Him]

So concerned with what is our part when we should be more concerned with His part since it is the ONLY part that overcomes.

I think I need to walk in a little more weakness, listen to the Spirit a little more, and not even get involved in conversations like this one to begin with. I should know better by now.

Talk to you later, Victory.

 

[icxn]

...So concerned with what is our part when we should be more concerned with His part since it is the ONLY part that overcomes.

But ViJ our part is the only part that we should be concerned - it's our part after all - namely to cultivate the divine seed and if it grows and bears fruit, acknowledge that to God who gave the increase belongs all glory.

1 Corinthians 3:6-8

I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.​

 

[Waiting on him]

Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. That’s interesting the two are one.

 

[marks]

So the account confirmed by Peter at Pentecost is only half of the spiritual truth - not because I say so, but because God has said so...and you simply missed the half of it.

This "other half", please point me to where I can read about it.

And I appreciate your explanation. You are speaking then of two spirits given mankind at Pentecost by God, one, the Holy Spirit, and the other, a spirit towards evil. Is this right? One we would call the Holy Spirit, and the other "the spirit of God", which makes evil. Am I understanding correctly?

I'd very much appreciate if you would tell me what passage or passages in the Bible teach this.

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

um, nothing appeared here, but it's the "bring it on" question.

Got it!