Could the disciples have lost their salvation?

[ScottA]

OK. Because that is what @ScottA is espousing.

Much love!

Where do the jackals and the poisonous things of the earth get their power? Yeah, what of murders and thieves, even Satan, if not from the Lord? Are there any who have power that is not given to them from God?

Has God not made the light and also the darkness? Does He not work all things together for good for those who love Him? Does His quiver and arsenal not include but the good half of all that He Himself has created?

What is it that you imagine...that Satan is an equal foe to God, having his own power, rather than a fallen son? Or that God did not see the end even from the beginning, as if these things were not all planned and written aforetime?

(Rhetorical)

 

[ScottA]

So then the clarity of your statement is that sinners in the present age sin by the power of the Holy Spirit. To me that is blasphemy. I've never really said that to anyone before. But this just astounds me.

Much love!
Mark

Your question names the Holy Spirit...but in my explanations, I did not name Him. That is because, and we should know, that there are both Holy and unholy spirits at work. But to think that there is another source for either, other than God...is not biblical: All power and creation in heaven and earth belong to God. There is no other.

 

[marks]

Well, it's all in your interpretation of how Jesus will be sent (in v.20). I take it to mean Him coming to them in Spirit after repentance, which would bring a time of refreshing through the Holy Spirit's outpouring. This would make sense of the following phrase, "whom Heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things." He would have to stay up there until the end of the age, so the time of refreshing would be an intermediate period between then and His second coming.

Personally, I think the essence of Peter's preaching is that if the nation would now repent and believe in their Messiah, the age would then end, their Messiah would come and make restitution of all things, and establish the Kingdom exactly as God had promised to them all along.

I think this allows for a straightforward reading of the passage.

Much love!
Mark

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Where do the jackals and the poisonous things of the earth get their power? Yeah, what of murders and thieves, even Satan, if not from the Lord? Are there any who have power that is not given to them from God?

Has God not made the light and also the darkness? Does He not work all things together for good for those who love Him? Does His quiver and arsenal not include but the good half of all that He Himself has created?

What is it that you imagine...that Satan is an equal foe to God, having his own power, rather than a fallen son? Or that God did not see the end even from the beginning, as if these things were not all planned and written aforetime?

(Rhetorical)

Deuteronomy 5:6-7 I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. [7] Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

1 Corinthians 8:4-6
[4] As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. [5] For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) [6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

 

[CoreIssue]

Personally, I think the essence of Peter's preaching is that if the nation would now repent and believe in their Messiah, the age would then end, their Messiah would come and make restitution of all things, and establish the Kingdom exactly as God had promised to them all along.

I think this allows for a straightforward reading of the passage.

Much love!
Mark

The Bible is quite clear the time of the Gentiles, meaning Church age, has to be fulfilled first.

 

[bbyrd009]

that would be the one that comes by observation though right

I mean we can even read where the apostles suffered from this same misunderstanding imo

 

[Hisman]

Judas was a hand chosen disciple, and FAILED to follow the order/steps TO Receive HIS prepared Salvation.

Umm I thought that he actually DID what it was prophesied about him in the OT .
He was a tool that God used to be the hand of man to betray. Because it had to be 'by man' moved by Satan.

Interesting. But maybe that is another subject and another thread maybe?
Go for it!

 

[CoreIssue]

Umm I thought that he actually DID what it was prophesied about him in the OT .
He was a tool that God used to be the hand of man to betray. Because it had to be 'by man' moved by Satan.

Interesting. But maybe that is another subject and another thread maybe?
Go for it!

Lord God chose him knowing it was in his heart to betray Christ.

Just as God chose pagan kings to punish Israel because it was in their hearts.

And how God chooses Satan, the AC and the false prophet to try the world and the tribulation to come.

God uses evil to accomplish good.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Lord God chose him knowing it was in his heart to betray Christ.

Revelation 17:17
[17] For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

 

[Hidden In Him]

but Luke 22:31-34 Shows: And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. [33] And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. [34] And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

At least at this point we see Peter was not converted right before satan asked to sift him as wheat.

The Greek word here for "converted" is ἐπιστρέφω, which usually is simply translated as "return" and should be here. In other words, "when you are returned to your right state." You have to remember, Victory, that before the crucifixion Jesus asked who the disciples thought He was, and Peter answered, "You are the Christ." John stated that no man can say such a thing except by the Spirit of God.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Personally, I think the essence of Peter's preaching is that if the nation would now repent and believe in their Messiah, the age would then end, their Messiah would come and make restitution of all things, and establish the Kingdom exactly as God had promised to them all along.

I think this allows for a straightforward reading of the passage.

Much love!
Mark

It's a possible reading.

 

[CoreIssue]

Revelation 17:17
[17] For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Revelation 17:17 New International Version (NIV)
17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.

But the desire to do so was already in their minds. Check out the similarities in the Old Testament.

It is already been reported on the news that you was looking for a strong leader to unite them and lead them.

 

[marks]

But the greatest thing to understand about these passages, is that the Lord has even employed "evil servants" among the good. Which is according to the prophecy of Joel, of God pouring "out His spirit upon ALL flesh", good or bad...which He does working "all things together for good, for those who love Him."

The Bible is quite clear the time of the Gentiles, meaning Church age, has to be fulfilled first.

Hi CoreIssue,

And yet that was written after this time. So that, if the Jews had as a nation received Jesus, then the Gospel would have gone to the gentiles but though Israel, during the kingdom of Christ. No?

And these letters would not have been written.

Much love!
Mark

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The Greek word here for "converted" is ἐπιστρέφω, which usually is simply translated as "return" and should be here. In other words, "when you are returned to your right state." You have to remember, Victory, that before the crucifixion Jesus asked who the disciples thought He was, and Peter answered, "You are the Christ." John stated that no man can say such a thing except by the Spirit of God.

Won’t argue the Revelation of Jesus Christ only comes by the Spirit of God. If that comes before conversion...don’t know but one blind must see. Question seems to be can one circumcised of God Spiritually ...can he be uncircumcised? Or can one converted be unconverted? ...Can one converted be unconverted? Would like to read your answer

 

[marks]

Where do the jackals and the poisonous things of the earth get their power? Yeah, what of murders and thieves, even Satan, if not from the Lord? Are there any who have power that is not given to them from God?

Has God not made the light and also the darkness? Does He not work all things together for good for those who love Him? Does His quiver and arsenal not include but the good half of all that He Himself has created?

What is it that you imagine...that Satan is an equal foe to God, having his own power, rather than a fallen son? Or that God did not see the end even from the beginning, as if these things were not all planned and written aforetime?

(Rhetorical)

Not just rhetorical, but yet another Logical Fallacy, in this case Limited Alternatives.

You've set up an "either/or" scenario where one must choose . . . but only from the options you are providing. In fact there are other options. What might they be?

I'm countering your assertion that God empowers sinners to sin more and bigger sins.

Your question names the Holy Spirit...but in my explanations, I did not name Him. That is because, and we should know, that there are both Holy and unholy spirits at work. But to think that there is another source for either, other than God...is not biblical: All power and creation in heaven and earth belong to God. There is no other.

You've said that the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost was to all people, causing each to flourish as they are, the good to good, the evil to evil. So in this you make the Holy Spirit the One Who empowers evil people to do evil, in the giving of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

If this is not what you are saying, OK, and I'll stand corrected.

Much love!
Mark

 

[Taken]

Umm I thought that he actually DID what it was prophesied about him in the OT .
He was a tool that God used to be the hand of man to betray. Because it had to be 'by man' moved by Satan.

I wouldn't say something being prophesied means a person knows it is about them.

Interesting. But maybe that is another subject and another thread maybe?
Go for it!

Go ahead...

God Bless,
taken

 

[Hidden In Him]

Question seems to be can one circumcised of God Spiritually ...can he be uncircumcised? Or can one converted be unconverted? ...Can one converted be unconverted? Would like to read your answer

Well, spiritual circumcision for me is setting aside the flesh to walk in the Spirit, so yes I would say that a believer can return to walking in the flesh if they choose to. But about conversion, I think that's more to your question, similar to "Can someone who is born of God come to a place of no longer being born of God?" I think we are spiritually born through the incorruptible seed of God's word, for as Jesus said, His words are Spirit and they are Life. But I believe one who is born of God spiritually through the word can likewise die spiritually through a discontinuance in His word and His Spirit. If one commits a sin that is so grievous unto God as to break covenant with Him, I think all the gifts that were given to lead to Life and godliness are withdrawn from him, including the presence of the Holy Spirit and His counsel concerning the word.

If you look, the Parable of the Sower suggests this:

3 “Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And it happened, as he sowed, that some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds of the air came and devoured it. 5 Some fell on stony ground, where it did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up it was scorched, and because it had no root it withered away. 7 And some seed fell among thorns; and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no crop. 8 But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred”... 13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.” (Mark 4:3-20)

Now, what is it that causes a man to be born of God? The incorruptible seed of His word (1 Peter 1:23). You see here that those who were stony ground did indeed receive the word for a time and it was growing within them, but they did not continue to let it do so because of the heat of persecution. So it "withered away," or in other words it died. The implication is clear then, that the seed of God's word died away within them, and with it their spiritual life. Likewise, those who were thorny ground received the word (i.e. which is spiritual life), and it was growing within them, but then the cares, desires and anxieties of this life choked out the word. The implication again is that the word died within them as a result of being choked out by other things. Only those who continue in the word, which Jesus said is Spirit and Life, and endure until the end will be assured of eternal life, because eternal life continued to abide within them, seeing as His word will endure forever. This is what James meant when he said, "receive with meekness the implanted word, which has the power to save your souls." (James 1:21). He was saying this to believers who were already walking in the word, yet the command was to continue doing so, for His words were Spirit and Life and would cause them to continue growing in that Life until the Lord's return.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Duplicate post.

 

[ScottA]

Not just rhetorical, but yet another Logical Fallacy, in this case Limited Alternatives.

You've set up an "either/or" scenario where one must choose . . . but only from the options you are providing. In fact there are other options. What might they be?

I'm countering your assertion that God empowers sinners to sin more and bigger sins.



You've said that the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost was to all people, causing each to flourish as they are, the good to good, the evil to evil. So in this you make the Holy Spirit the One Who empowers evil people to do evil, in the giving of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

If this is not what you are saying, OK, and I'll stand corrected.

Much love!
Mark

Bring it on.

No, I did not say "the Holy Spirit." I said the prophecy of Joel that "God would pour out His spirit upon all flesh", confirmed by Peter at Pentecost. You have assumed that I meant the Holy Spirit...which is not far from the truth, if you can receive it. But for the sake of possible confusion that a Holy God could be unholy, I did not suggest such...because we had not gone that far in the discussion. If we can first agree that all power in heaven and earth belongs to God, or that "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made", then perhaps we could unpack the evil from the good, rather than you lumping them together and assuming that all spirits from God are Holy just because He is holy.

So, indeed, the Holy Spirit goes forth sent by Christ, but it is a two-edged sword, and you have not considered that the other cuts contrary to what is Holy. Nonetheless, God works all things together for good for those who love Him.

But that all just scratches the surface. If a policeman speeds to catch a speeder, who is it that has broken the law? But now you assume that I have said that God has broken the law of holiness for doing the same. But He has not, no more than a policemen who speeds to catch a speeder. So then, what is legal or righteous, is not determined by its source (in this case God) or the outcome, but by intent. God is good. Thus, if the Holy Spirit is indeed holy, He holds no evil intent, but does the will of God which is holy either way, whether darkness or light, whether flesh or spirit, whether wickedness or righteousness. But here again, do not misunderstand...by this same means "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief."

 

[marks]

Bring it on.

Bring what exactly? Not sure what you mean here.

No, I did not say "the Holy Spirit." I said the prophecy of Joel that "God would pour out His spirit upon all flesh", confirmed by Peter at Pentecost. You have assumed that I meant the Holy Spirit...

Yes, this is true, when you speak of the spirit poured out at Pentecost, I take you to mean the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:4-8
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

But you are saying that the spirit given on Pentecost was not the Holy Spirit. But it was God's spirit, eh?

which is not far from the truth, if you can receive it. But for the sake of possible confusion that a Holy God could be unholy, I did not suggest such...because we had not gone that far in the discussion.

So . . . what are you saying about this Spirit given at Pentecost? God's Spirit? Or not? Holy? Or not?

Please be clear.

If we can first agree that all power in heaven and earth belongs to God, or that "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made", then perhaps we could unpack the evil from the good, rather than you lumping them together and assuming that all spirits from God are Holy, when obviously they are not.

You are the one saying that the spirit given at Pentecost causes evil men to flourish in their evil.

I see that as a most extreme contradiction.

Of course God made everything, and declared everything good. But God does not declare sin good, rather He condemns it.

So, indeed, the Holy Spirit goes forth sent by Christ, but it is a two-edged sword, and you have not considered that the other cuts contrary to what is Holy. Nonetheless, God works all things together for good for those who love Him.

What does this mean? It sounds like just another way of saying the Holy Spirit empowers sin. A defense of your assertion, but no Scripture that teaches this.

But that all just scratches the surface. If a policeman speeds to catch a speeder, who is it that has broken the law? But now you assume that I have said that God has broken the law of holiness for doing the same. But He has not, no more than a policemen who speeds to catch a speeder.

You said the Spirit given at Pentecost causes the evil to flourish in their evil.

This is like saying the policeman put his foot down on the speeder's gas pedal.

You're changing what you are saying here.

A man who drives over the speed limit to conduct lawful business is not speeding, example, the policeman you've mentioned, the ambulance driver, and the private citizen in a private car rushing someone in an emergency to the hospital.

But it most certainly violates God's holiness to empower the sinner to sinner, to super-charge his sinfulness by the power of His Holy Spirit. I still maintain this is blasphemy, at least in my mind.

So then, what is legal or righteous, is not determined by its source (in this case God), but by intent. God is good. Thus, if the Holy Spirit is indeed holy, He holds no evil intent, but does the will of God which is holy either way, whether darkness or light, whether flesh or spirit, whether wickedness or righteousness. But here again, do not misunderstand...by this same means "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief."

God knew that evil men would kill His Son. And God wanted His Son killed as the perfect sacrifice to save man from his sin.

But God did not make those men kill Jesus, and holds them responsible. Do you see the distinction?

You make God the only motive force in the universe, and everything that happens happens because God caused it to happen.

But the Bible teaches that God gives away bits of sovereignty, the ability to choose, and those choices that WE make have consequences that we garner for ourselves.

God says, choose this day whom you will serve. God says, repent - stop being a sinner. Because if we do not, He will hold US responsible. It will be our doing.

Much love!
mark