Could the disciples have lost their salvation?

[ScottA]

So you are a Calvinists.

Name calling again.

How can someone follow one he does not know? (Rhetorical) He can't. But you are a name caller when you have no other leg to stand on.

 

[CoreIssue]

Name calling again.

How can someone of one he does not know? (Rhetorical) He can't. But you are a name caller when you have no other leg to stand on.

Just going by the words you use and the statements you make.

 

[ScottA]

Just going by the words you use and the statements you make.

Now you add judgment to name calling. Good for you. But if Calvin stated the scriptures as I have (I wouldn't know), then “Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is on our side.”

 

[Hidden In Him]

Acts 3:19-21
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

What would have happened if the nation, from the leaders on down, have believed in Jesus at Peter's preaching?

Would Jesus have returned? I believe it says here that He would have.

Well, it's all in your interpretation of how Jesus will be sent (in v.20). I take it to mean Him coming to them in Spirit after repentance, which would bring a time of refreshing through the Holy Spirit's outpouring. This would make sense of the following phrase, "whom Heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things." He would have to stay up there until the end of the age, so the time of refreshing would be an intermediate period between then and His second coming.

 

[Hidden In Him]

This subject can indeed lead down many avenues of thought. Is OSAS a thing? If not, on what terms? What conditions or criteria is God so intolerant of as to bring about damnation to one previously justified? I'm going to go out on a limb here and state that being justified in a full biblical sense does mean " made right with God"... However, it does not mean "saved". Being justified is but the first step in the way to glory. Salvation does not begin and end at the cross. There's that simple but vital instruction from the Master that says, "abide". And from Paul "endure".
I believe it was possible for the apostles to have been lost, as it is for us, but extremely difficult. The only way anyone could be lost is for one to deliberately and with determination break off the relationship. Because such an act would pain the Father and Son immensely, they will do anything in their power to convince such a one to repent. God has torn down the wall of separation between Himself and man.. It is man who seeks to rebuild that wall through a purposeful and resolute step back into the world of sin. Not just one sin here and there, but a reverse in direction that results in a full lifestyle change. Total apostasy. This is the only ground for divorce. Complete determined unfaithfulness to the marriage vows.

Absolutely. Of course, the argument of some is that a "true" disciple of Christ could never do this, but as you were alluding to, one of the potential conditions is outright denial of the Lord Jesus Christ, and did not Peter do this? Certainly he repented eventually, but the very fact that an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ openly denied Him before men suggests that the common believer has the freewill to do so if he so chooses, and if it is not followed with repentance his end would be damnation.

The naysayers can believe as they wish, but the idea that true Christians cannot walk away from God also flies in the face of early church history, not to mention make a whole host of passages utterly needless if betraying Him is impossible.

 

[Hidden In Him]

.."...Lose of salvation.." ??

Short answer NO.
Long answer... nnnnn......ooooooooooo!!

At least you appear to have thought it out, LoL.

 

[Hidden In Him]

My answer remains the same, biblical, and consistent: None who are truly saved will lose their eternal salvation

Oh, fiddle sticks... I know that already, Preacher. I want your interpretation on the bloody parable, LoL : )

Serves me right for creating a stupid thread on salvation.... <grumbling to myself incoherently>

 

[Hidden In Him]

Isaiah 10:15-20
[15] Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood. [16] Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire. [17] And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day; [18] And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth. [19] And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them. [20] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the Lord , the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Victory, I appreciate your posts, but if I can, let me address something that I'm guessing other members here may be thinking as well but are not saying anything about it: When you post a passage like this, you gotta share how you think it applies to whatever argument you are presenting. Otherwise, it just looks like a trip to some new page in the Bible, and I gotta sit there and try and figure out WHY you quoted it, and what point you were trying to make.

Not upset or anything, just saying it would help if you explained why such passages have relevance in your opinion.

Blessings, sister.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Victory, I appreciate your posts, but if I can, let me address something that I'm guessing other members here may be thinking as well but are not saying anything about it: When you post a passage like this, you gotta share how you think it applies to whatever argument you are presenting. Otherwise, it just looks like a trip to some new page in the Bible, and I gotta sit there and try and figure out WHY you quoted it, and what point you were trying to make.

Not upset or anything, just saying it would help if you explained why such passages have relevance in your opinion.

Blessings, sister.

Conversation has moved on anyways. Thank you ...I’ll keep this in mind for the future.

 

[bbyrd009]

Serves me right for creating a stupid thread on salvation

ha fwiw that split the Anabaptist congregations I guess. So we have an ILC example of those who believe they are or can be saved--Amish--and those who believe in a hope of salvation, Mennonite. I think I got that right anyway

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Absolutely. Of course, the argument of some is that a "true" disciple of Christ could never do this, but as you were alluding to, one of the potential conditions is outright denial of the Lord Jesus Christ, and did not Peter do this?

Mingled together seem to be converted-and-nonconverted...can someone fall away before they are born of God while flesh and not Spirit(no new birth). Or can someone be unconverted once converted? You used Peter as the example but Luke 22:31-34 Shows: And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. [33] And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. [34] And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

At least at this point we see Peter was not converted right before satan asked to sift him as wheat. Peter denied Christ when Peter said he was ready to go to death with the Lord. We see one must be converted to enter the kingdom. Matthew 18:3-4 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. [4] Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Oddly or perfectly “you must be humble” and then we are shown Peter suffers a massive blow to his pride of: ‘I’ would never deny you Lord.

Before conversion can what man believes he has obtained be lost...doesn’t the parable of the sower show this: some fell on stony ground, some by the wayside, some the fowls consumed...BUT then there is the good ground which brings forth fruit. There was no good ground before His death and resurrection for the outpouring of the Spirit. God cultivated the heart of man AND God is the one who makes the circumcision of the heart. Can the circumcision God makes be undone? Can a man circumcised in the heart by God be lost when the Lord said HE lost none(0) that were given Him. Where in scripture does it tell us this? Can the temple God builds made without hands be demolished or ‘defiled’ ...He said nothing unclean enters into the kingdom of God. BUT then there are the verses of the anti-christ standing where he shouldn’t.

As far as the disciples...after conversion they are getting whipped and thrown in prison and told to shut their mouths and the cry is for God to give them more boldness, for God to give them more opportunity to not deny but to proclaim His name.

 

[bbyrd009]

we don't get to pick how we will live, exactly; but we do get to pick how we will die I guess

 

[Taken]

Could the disciples have lost their salvation? <--- OP

Short answer; YES.

FACTS:
God "OFFERED" salvation to OT men.
...THEIR "Caveat", was they would "RECEIVE"
...Their Salvation at the END of their Natural ...Lives...
...."IF"
....they were and remained Exclusively
....Faithful to The Heavenly God Almighty.

Jesus "OFFERED" salvation to NT men.
...THEIR "OFFER" , was the Salvation IS;
...THEIRS.
...THEIR "CAVEAT", Was (and IS today);
...They would/will "RECEIVE" Their Salvation
....Then/Now...
...."IF"
....They "FUFILL" the "order/steps" revealed
....by the Lords word, for them to "RECEIVE"
....THEIR GIFT.

Judas was a hand chosen disciple, and FAILED to follow the order/steps TO Receive HIS prepared Salvation.

Disciple... (which simply means one following Jesus, and learning, and believing what they are learning)...

Jesus had Many disciples (other than ones He chose). Some continued following and received their salvation; Some stopped following and Lost their salvation.

Of the 12 disciples Jesus' Chosen 11 remained following, and received their Salvation and 1 stopped following and lost his Salvation.

Could anyone LOSE their Salvation After having Received their Salvation?

No.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Judas was a hand chosen disciple, and FAILED to follow the order/steps TO Receive HIS prepared Salvation.

Can not conceive what it must have been like when the Lord said one would betray Him and Judas asked “Master, is it I?” Matthew 26:23-25 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me. [24] The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. [25] Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

John 17:12
[12] While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

So that the scripture might be fulfilled:
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

“Have I not chosen you twelve...” ?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Mingled together seem to be converted-and-nonconverted...can someone fall away before they are born of God while flesh and not Spirit(no new birth). Or can someone be unconverted once converted? You used Peter as the example but Luke 22:31-34 Shows: And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. [33] And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. [34] And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

At least at this point we see Peter was not converted right before satan asked to sift him as wheat. Peter denied Christ when Peter said he was ready to go to death with the Lord. We see one must be converted to enter the kingdom. Matthew 18:3-4 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. [4] Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Oddly or perfectly “you must be humble” and then we are shown Peter suffers a massive blow to his pride of: ‘I’ would never deny you Lord.

Before conversion can what man believes he has obtained be lost...doesn’t the parable of the sower show this: some fell on stony ground, some by the wayside, some the fowls consumed...BUT then there is the good ground which brings forth fruit. There was no good ground before His death and resurrection for the outpouring of the Spirit. God cultivated the heart of man AND God is the one who makes the circumcision of the heart. Can the circumcision God makes be undone? Can a man circumcised in the heart by God be lost when the Lord said HE lost none(0) that were given Him. Where in scripture does it tell us this? Can the temple God builds made without hands be demolished or ‘defiled’ ...He said nothing unclean enters into the kingdom of God. BUT then there are the verses of the anti-christ standing where he shouldn’t.

As far as the disciples...after conversion they are getting whipped and thrown in prison and told to shut their mouths and the cry is for God to give them more boldness, for God to give them more opportunity to not deny but to proclaim His name.

“At least at this point we see Peter was not converted right before satan asked to sift him as wheat. Peter denied Christ when Peter said he was ready to go to death with the Lord. We see one must be converted to enter the kingdom. Matthew 18:3-4 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. [4] Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Oddly or perfectly “you must be humble” and then we are shown Peter suffers a massive blow to his pride of: ‘I’ would never deny you Lord.”

The door into the Kingdom of God: Revelation 3:7-9 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; [8] I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. [9] Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

He who has the Key of David is Him who was dead, and is alive(Revelation 2:8). Consider Peter whom denied the Lord, and the blow to his pride when he was overly confident he was ready to die with the Lord. Consider this in the above from the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

1) He who has the key, He that opens the door to the kingdom and no man can shut it, and He who shuts the door to the kingdom and no man can open it says...He knows you have little strength but you have kept His word and not denied His name.

2)Before you is an open door into the kingdom of God, a door to conversion-translation-transfer... no man can open or shut the door except Him who was dead, and is alive.

 

[Helen]

Can not conceive what it must have been like when the Lord said one would betray Him and Judas asked “Master, is it I?” Matthew 26:23-25 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me. [24] The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. [25] Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

John 17:12
[12] While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

So that the scripture might be fulfilled:
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

“Have I not chosen you twelve...” ?

So the answer is still NO!! Poor Judas had his destiny to fulfil . Some man had to do the betraying. The lot fell to him.
Once saved , always saved.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

So the answer is still NO!! Poor Judas had his destiny to fulfil . Some man had to do the betraying. The lot fell to him.
Once saved , always saved.

Matthew 26:48-50
[48] Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast. [49] And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him. [50] And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.

Zechariah 13:6-7
[6] And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. [7] Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Romans 5:6-8
[6] For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. [7] For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. [8] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[marks]

You mean you can interpret Scott speech?

I think that remains to be seen . . .

 

[marks]

Your beef is apparently with God. I just quoted a very plain scripture which you have failed to explain or acknowledge.
I have been clear. Why do you continue to ask me to repeat? (Rhetorical) It is because you do not want to believe it from me or from God.
What you are saying here is not biblical. All power in heaven and earth belongs to God. But you act as if there is another.

On the contrary, I have explained that what people call "freewill" and a spiritual force other than God, is not that at all...but is the manifestation of both good and evil by God unto judgement. The manifestations of all of history simply show each person as they are, as it is written in the books. Just as God is "I am", so too is every person born. Then comes the end.

So then the clarity of your statement is that sinners in the present age sin by the power of the Holy Spirit. To me that is blasphemy. I've never really said that to anyone before. But this just astounds me.

Much love!
Mark

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Once saved , always saved.

‘Saved’ ‘safe’ seems to offend maybe once circumcised of God’s hand, once converted, once translated-transformed-transfigured, transfered...(Philippians 1:6) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: