Couple verses prove saved people are on the earth up until the 2nd coming of Christ, as in His actual appearing and our resurrection.

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Scott Downey

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Of course Christ's Church will go through the "great tribulation", which Apostle Paul shows in the 1 Thessalonians 4 Scripture, and that agrees with what Lord Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 about His coming AFTER... the tribulation to gather His saints.

1 Thess 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and
with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV


I find that many brethren do not properly read that 1 Thessalonians 4 Scripture, especially that part in verse 16 about the dead in Christ being raised only... on the day of Jesus' coming, which points directly to the 'resurrection' on the LAST DAY of this world...


John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and
I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

That means of course, that day the "sleep" saints are RAISED is the "last day" of this world, which is when Jesus comes for His Church. And that definitely means AFTER... the "great tribulation", thus making man's Pre-trib Rapture theory a false doctrine.
Exactly what scripture actually says. Somehow some believers escape the mark as they are saved and alive at the return of Christ.
How they do that, maybe they live apart, away from the kingdom of the beast. Maybe they figure out a way to survive not buying and selling using the beast's money. Since the beast causes all to be killed who won't take the mark, it could be the beast's followers have to find and identify non marked people. Can't locate such people, they are not killed. could also be people are living in concentration camps unmarked and not immediately killed.
 
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Scott Downey

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Example is here, note v10, teaching those saints to be patient, reciprocity is coming to their persecutors.
Rev 13
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to [c]continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every [d]tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the [e]patience and the faith of the saints.
 

ewq1938

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Exactly what scripture actually says. Somehow some believers escape the mark as they are saved and alive at the return of Christ.
How they do that, maybe they live apart, away from the kingdom of the beast. Maybe they figure out a way to survive not buying and selling using the beast's money.

Beast money? Where is that from? I read only that there is a mark to control who can buy or sell not that the beast has it's own money.


Since the beast causes all to be killed who won't take the mark

The bible doesn't say that. It says ppl will be killed if they refuse to worship the image of the beast.
 

Scott Downey

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Beast money? Where is that from? I read only that there is a mark to control who can buy or sell not that the beast has it's own money.




The bible doesn't say that. It says ppl will be killed if they refuse to worship the image of the beast.
The difference is meaningless.
Everyone marked has worshipped the beast. There won't be any marked non beast worshippers.
If someone takes the mark, They are assuredly going to hell.

The money you have is not yours, it belongs to the world government system of banking. You just get to use their money.
In Cesear's day it belonged to Cesear like Christ said.

It is the beast's world government system in that future time, so it is it's monetary system and belongs to the beast.
Quite possible, even likely nations won't have their own currency anymore., It is a world government then. It will issue beast dollars maybe with it's image on them. Or may not be any paper money or coins, all digital.
 
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ewq1938

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The difference is meaningless.
Everyone marked has worshipped the beast. There won't be any marked non beast worshippers.

Image of the beastworshippers not beast worshippers. There is a difference between the beast and the image of the beast.

The rapture involves saved Christians who did not take the mark. How did they survive the trib not taking the mark or worshipping the image?

It is the beast's world government system in that future time, so it is it's monetary system and belongs to the beast.
Quite possible, even likely nations won't have their own currency anymore., It is a world government then. It will issue beast dollars maybe with it's image on them. Or may not be any paper money or coins, all digital.

I don't see anything that hints at the beast creating it's own money. Likely existing forms of currency will be used with the mark only controlling who can buy or sell with all the dif kinds of money. Doesn't seem to affect trading and bartering at all, which is likely how the raptured saints made it without taking the mark.
 

Scott Downey

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Image of the beastworshippers not beast worshippers. There is a difference between the beast and the image of the beast.

The rapture involves saved Christians who did not take the mark. How did they survive the trib not taking the mark or worshipping the image?



I don't see anything that hints at the beast creating it's own money. Likely existing forms of currency will be used with the mark only controlling who can buy or sell with all the dif kinds of money. Doesn't seem to affect trading and bartering at all, which is likely how the raptured saints made it without taking the mark.
Makes no sense to have many nations currencies still in use when the beast creates its own one world government.
We don't see Nazi German marks still used as money or confederate dollars. When the US first began, states printed their own money.
When the current government and its laws are dissolved so will be its money. unless you think national governments continue as they are when the beast is in power ruling this world.
And that is still the current thinking of those pushing for one world government, a single currency.
------------------------------------
The agreement became the first step in an ongoing effort to create a single currency for a one-world government. The IMF and World Bank, James Perloff wrote in The Shadows of Power, were proposed years earlier by the Economic and Finance Group of the Council on Foreign Relations. Perloff noted British author A.K. Chesterton’s observation that the new agencies “were not incubated by hard-pressed Government engaged in waging war, but by a Supra-national Money Power which could afford to look ahead to the shaping of a post-war world that would serve its interests.” Socialist economist John Maynard Keynes of England, a leading figure at the conference, proposed a world currency, but the idea was rejected at the time.

On August 15, 1971, President Richard Nixon closed “the gold window” to the world, declaring that foreign-held U.S. dollars would no longer be redeemable in gold. That made the dollar fully a “fiat currency” and effectively ended the system created at Bretton Woods. But a single world currency has remained a long-term goal of world economic planners. Johannes Witteveen, a former head of the International Monetary Fund, said in 1975 that the IMF should become “the exclusive issuer of official international reserve assets.” In the Fall 1984 issue of the CFR’s flagship publication, Foreign Affairs, Richard N. Cooper wrote:

A new Bretton Woods conference is wholly premature. But it is not premature to begin thinking about how we would like international monetary agreements to evolve in the remainder of this century. With this in mind, I suggest a radical alternative scheme for the next century: the creation of a common currency for all the industrial democracies, with a common monetary policy and a joint Bank of Issue to determine that monetary policy.... How can independent states accomplish that? They need to turn over the determination of monetary policy to a supranational body. [Emphasis in original.]


 

Scott Downey

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Daniel 7:25
He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.
 

Davy

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Exactly what scripture actually says. Somehow some believers escape the mark as they are saved and alive at the return of Christ.
How they do that, maybe they live apart, away from the kingdom of the beast. Maybe they figure out a way to survive not buying and selling using the beast's money. Since the beast causes all to be killed who won't take the mark, it could be the beast's followers have to find and identify non marked people. Can't locate such people, they are not killed. could also be people are living in concentration camps unmarked and not immediately killed.
Pretty close I think. We know per Scripture that not all believers are killed during the great tribulation, otherwise there would be none of us left on the day Jesus gathers the alive saints on earth on the day of the resurrection per 1 Thess.4.
 

Scott Downey

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Pretty close I think. We know per Scripture that not all believers are killed during the great tribulation, otherwise there would be none of us left on the day Jesus gathers the alive saints on earth on the day of the resurrection per 1 Thess.4.
The beast may also organize terror 'show trials' for entertainment of the masses of the marked. So a selected few are killed every day from where they are held. Kinda like what I think they did to the Christians in the Roman games the coliseums.

Romans 8:36
As it is written: “For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
 

ewq1938

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Makes no sense to have many nations currencies still in use when the beast creates its own one world government.

Makes perfect sense. There is not one word about a global currency from the beast in scripture. The only thing mentioned is a mark to control buying and selling not what kind of currency might be used.




We don't see Nazi German marks still used as money or confederate dollars.

They are bought and sold and are actually worth more now than the amounts they were valued at at the time of their original use. None of this has anything to do with what we are discussing though.
 

ewq1938

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Daniel 7:25
He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.


Change moneys and law?
 

Davy

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The beast may also organize terror 'show trials' for entertainment of the masses of the marked. So a selected few are killed every day from where they are held. Kinda like what I think they did to the Christians in the Roman games the coliseums.

Romans 8:36
As it is written: “For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
Recall Mark 13 where Lord Jesus forewarned that some of us would be delivered up to councils and in synagogues for His sake, to give a Testimony against them by The Holy Spirit. Jesus said to not premeditate what we will say in that hour, but speak what The Holy Spirit gives us to speak.

That... event is what will really tick Satan off at the end, as the whole world will hear GOD speaking through His servants by The Holy Spirit. I think it's that event at the very end of the tribulation that will cause Satan to determine to literally destroy all Jews and Christians on the very last day of this world, represented by the battle of Armageddon on the 7th Vial, 7th Trumpet. That will be when Jesus will step in to end this world and defeat Satan's host, raining hailstones weighing on average of 70-120 lbs. down upon Satan's army coming out of the northern quarters.
 
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Scott Downey

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Makes perfect sense. There is not one word about a global currency from the beast in scripture. The only thing mentioned is a mark to control buying and selling not what kind of currency might be used.






They are bought and sold and are actually worth more now than the amounts they were valued at at the time of their original use. None of this has anything to do with what we are discussing though.
Those are not legal tender to buy and sell. Economies are regulated by governments in power by rules and laws.
A single currency has long been the globalist one world government desire. The beast government is also about total control. No reason to not expect the beast to introduce a single currency to buy and sell. You do know all your money is worthless to you in such a time as is coming.
 

ewq1938

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No reason to not expect the beast to introduce a single currency to buy and sell.


Except it isn't mentioned in any prophecy. That's all I am saying. There is literally nothing at all about a global new currency from the beast. The beast would not need that because the mark will control who can spend their money, no matter what type it is. Even the Romans did not insist on only their currency being used and they are the pattern or shadow of the coming beast system.
 

Scott Downey

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Makes mention of a new world currency at 1:40. No one will be able to buy or sell with cash, as all cash money will be abolished. That is the beast's monetary system. Makes perfect sense to have a singular global administered monetary system if you are creating a one world government. Everything you do will be tracked and recorded, what you buy or sell and what they will allow you to buy and sell.

 

Reddsta

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Greetings Scott Downey
Liked your OP so I thought I might jump in...
And as you can read this is also the resurrection of the dead in Christ at the same time.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The above has the second coming, the rapture and the resurrection of the dead in Christ, also showing there are living in the flesh believers on earth at this time.
It would seem that your interpretation flows with what Paul said.
The above has the second coming, the rapture and the resurrection of the dead in Christ, also showing there are living in the flesh believers on earth at this time.
It is the Body of Christ (humans indwelt by the Holy Spirit) and the Head (Holy Spirit) is with them.
So where does this fit in with your theology of the mark of the beast and not being able to buy or sell in the economy, obviously all these statements are true.
Good question Scott…building upon the context of what you have posted…I’ll share with you what has been revealed to me up to this point.

What you are looking at here is the existence of what I refer to as “two different economies”…the “mark of the beast” (motb) economy “buy or sell” and the “kingdom of God” “mark of God” (moG) economy and they are both in play on the earth at the same time.

This is the beast with the 10 crowned horns on the seven crowned heads…additionally there are blasphemous names on each of the seven heads as well…and one of the heads appears to have been slain due to a fatal wound…that had “healed” “who opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven. It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.” (Rev 13:6-7 NASB)

This beast is in possession of the beast economy…obviously…so if one is in the economy of the beast…one is marked accordingly…motb.

As you can see this beast economy is at war with those in the kingdom of God economy…who are known as “Christ”…Head and Body…so if one is in the economy of the kingdom of God one carries the mark of God...moG.

Those are the only two kingdoms and economies in creation…so ones citizenship is determined by their mark. These kingdoms have been at war since the Holy Spirit was first given to humanity because the kingdom of God was not on the earth until the Lord Yahshua brought it here in Himself.

Understanding the motb needn’t be a difficult thing…though it has become that…at the hands of those who profess immunity from it...no less. They cannot agree on what the motb is…nor when it will begin…nor how it is implemented. Yet they spare no effort to cloud an issue they claim doesn’t pertain to them.

Here is the most basic and elementary description of the two marks…emphasis mine.

“Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. [moG] And do not be conformed to this world, [motb] but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.” [moG] (Rom 12:1-2 NASB)

“Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. [motb] For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. The world is passing away, and also its lusts; [motb] but the one who does the will of God lives forever.” [moG] (1Jn 2:15-17 NASB)

Paul and John are showing that the relative marks are distinguished by ones “mindset.” A "worldly" mindset constitutes the motb…a "Christ" mindset constitutes moG.

The open manifestation of each is seen in how one lives their life. Those with the motb…sons of Satan…are in the 6th day of toil by the sweat of their brow…they operate by “the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life” and spend all their life providing for and protecting themselves because they are fatherless orphans without an inheritance.

Those with the moG are in the 7th day of rest…tending the garden of God. Because the garden of God was established in abundance for the sons of God…their Father is their provision and protection…He lovingly raises them in His house to the full stature of Christ and they receive an inheritance.

There is more…however this should suffice for now.

Redd…:)
 

Reddsta

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The rapture involves saved Christians who did not take the mark. How did they survive the trib not taking the mark or worshipping the image?
They were bearing the mark of God..."He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name." (Rev 3:12 NASB)

We are His ewq1938...we are Him...His Body on the earth...those of us that are here during the end of the age.

How do you define survive? What are you thinking?

Doesn't seem to affect trading and bartering at all, which is likely how the raptured saints made it without taking the mark.
So these "raptured saints" rely upon something other than their Father's provision and protection during His judgements rolled out upon the earth?

These "raptured saints" you speak of...that are on the earth throughout the end of the age up to the coming of the Lord Yahshua...or in whatever length of time they are here...they are operating under the power and authority of the throne of the living God...exactly as our Lord Yahshua Christ did...and largely to the same end I might add...come on...you knew that?

Redd...:)