Couple verses prove saved people are on the earth up until the 2nd coming of Christ, as in His actual appearing and our resurrection.

[No Pre-TB]

Why don't you write that down the next time you decide to go shopping, or have someone go the store for you?

Write it down? Are we living in the 90s?
Alexa…add printer paper to my to buy list
Alexa…buy printer paper.

 

[MatthewG]

Write it down? Are we living in the 90s?
Alexa…add printer paper to my to buy list
Alexa…buy printer paper.

That is an option?

 

[No Pre-TB]

That is an option?

Yes. You can set up alexa so that purchases go to your account to order things thru Amazon

You can add items in your cart too and buy them later as well

 

[Keraz]

Except nothing here about martyrs. Those who are dead in Christ are those who died in the Lord, believers in Christ.

Typical 'cherrypicking'.
You ignore a verse that specifies exactly who will be resurrected when Jesus Returns, for one that suits your belief. 1 Corinthians 15:23 does not say 'all'.

Resurrection. the same event in 1 Thessalonians 4 and in 1 Corinthians 15, and neither can people die any more after their resurrection of them to life from the dead.

In 1 Cor 15:50-56, Paul is Prophesying about what will happen at the Great White Throne Judgment. AFTER the Millennium.
Proved by Revelation 21:4, when it is only then that Death will be no more.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Why don't you write that down the next time you decide to go shopping, or have someone go the store for you?

I seldom go out and I don't have anyone to ask to buy a couple reams. Your post is still in the printer queue, so I will get to it. I just wanted you to know it is important to me even if it doesn't appear to be. I have a doctor's appt. on 12/5 so will get it then if not before.

 

[No Pre-TB]

In 1 Cor 15:50-56, Paul is Prophesying about what will happen at the Great White Throne Judgment. AFTER the Millennium.

Then why was Paul quoting Isa 25, “in this mountain”, which could only be the mountain that grows after the stone destroys Daniel’s statue? The same mountain as a figure for his Kingdom when he begins to reign. That event is 1k years before the GWTJ, not after it. The same thing recorded in 2 Timothy 4:8 where Paul links that day to 2 Tim 4:1 which is at the 7th trumpet.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

True. So how can we know who is right from the Bible?

Acts 3:21 - Christ cannot leave Heaven till all is restored or at least removed for restoration. Impossible on a Pre-Trib timeline

Job 14:12 - Impossible on a Pre-Trib timeline because that event is the 6th seal making our change sometime afterwards. Which Peter identifies in 2 Peter 3:10 or Isaiah 51:6

2 Timothy 4:1 - Impossible on a Pre-Trib timeline because the judgment and receiving our crown are tied to his appearing in his kingdom and that happens at the 7th trumpet per Rev 11:15-18

The first resurrection - Rev 20:5
Strongs defines the word protos as foremost in order of time, place, order or importance. No other resurrection can precede it. That implies a resurrection in Ch 4 an impossibility!

Last trumpet - eschatology is 2078 ésxatos (from esxaton, "end, last") – properly, last, final (the furthest, extreme-end).
If the last trumpet was in Ch 4, how are there other trumpets after it? Last means no more can follow at all.

I sure wish they were right!

I stand on Luke 21:36

Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

and Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

If "escape" means physical death before the GT starts (if we aren't in it right now which I think we are Isaiah 5:20) or divine protection, we'll know very soon.

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

And as you can read this is also the resurrection of the dead in Christ at the same time.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The above has the second coming, the rapture and the resurrection of the dead in Christ, also showing there are living in the flesh believers on earth at this time.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

God shortens those tribulation days only for the sake of the elect believers otherwise none of them would survive the time of the great tribulation.
It says 'flesh', so these elect saved persons are still in the body before the 2nd coming and resurrection.
So where does this fit in with your theology of the mark of the beast and not being able to buy or sell in the economy, obviously all these statements are true.

Well of course there will be saved people on teh earth up until Jesus returns.

They will not be the church, which is caught up to heaven before the tribulation begins. For want of a better term, I call them the tribulation saints which are separate from teh church saints which are spearate form the OT saints.

 

[MatthewG]

I seldom go out and I don't have anyone to ask to buy a couple reams. Your post is still in the printer queue, so I will get to it. I just wanted you to know it is important to me even if it doesn't appear to be. I have a doctor's appt. on 12/5 so will get it then if not before.

1stcenturylady, I trust you will, perhaps even the one sinlessness is the one you are talking about. Thank you for saying what you have, my hope is for Gods glory, in Christ, and not my own glory. The day (4th) prior, my work will most likely have me do some reassessment test because its been two years being there. Hope your check up, will go well, my mom has an appointment on wednesday, for mamogram, check for any cancer cells or any other abnormalities. Thank you again, and may God be with.

 

[No Pre-TB]

I sure wish they were right!

I stand on Luke 21:36

Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

and Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

If "escape" means physical death before the GT starts (if we aren't in it right now which I think we are Isaiah 5:20) or divine protection, we'll know very soon.

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

I wish they were right as well. It sounds wonderful, I say that honestly. I asked one person once, if a King who is exiled or perhaps left his lands and in either case another king came and took control of it, would the one in exile/left his lands reward his servants in those lands under that false king and flee with them back into exile or would he first take back the realm and then reward his servants that fight for him? Hmm!

 

[Scott Downey]

God can keep us from the Tribulation trial, and obviously does for some as my first post shows. Not everyone takes the mark and they remain alive in the body till the Lord's return. And of course, dying in the Lord you escape those things also.

Luke 21
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

v27 and 28 reads clear to me, every eye shall see Him at His return.

And Hebrews 9, the Lord's return means our salvation, deliverance from that evil time.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

 

[Scott Downey]

Peter also say this
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance [b]incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been [c]grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not [d]seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

 

[No Pre-TB]

And of course, dying in the Lord you escape those things also.

Dieing to the Lord or blessed are the dead that die in the Lord?

 

[Taken]

Couple verses prove saved people are on the earth up until the 2nd coming of Christ, as in His actual appearing and our resurrection.
THREAD ^

Resurrect ~ raise from the dead
Resurrection ~ being raised from the dead.

Scriptural evidence reveals multiple resurrections occurred.

Medical journals reveal cases of the dead being resurrected.

Individuals report cases of the dead being resurrected.

I believe multiple Resurrections will continue until the END of Mortal Life.

* Christ’s Resurrection is the first fruit of His Church.

* Christ’s Church is Resurrected, call the Rapture.

* Saints shall be Resurrected, during Gods last days Tribulations.

* Old Testament Saints Resurrected.

* The Non-believing Resurrected.

* Resurrections end….Evidence, Judgement and Sentencing commences. Mortal life of man ends.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Scott Downey]

Dieing to the Lord or blessed are the dead that die in the Lord?

It is here in Rev 14., only those who die in the Lord are saved, meaning they are faithful unto death. Not that all believers will die.
God only saves believers, saves the believing ones.

And note it teaches us to be patient, and to wait on God to fulfil His promises to us, and not lose faith.

12 Here is the [g]patience of the saints; here[h] are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying [i]to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

 

[ewq1938]

There was no one left to record this happening and unbelievers did not see it cause they didnt believe.

All will see the second coming including unbelievers.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

One of many ways we know Jesus did not come in 70AD.

 

[MatthewG]

All will see the second coming including unbelievers.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

One of many ways we know Jesus did not come in 70AD.

Hello ewq,

Many people suggest this.

I dont believe that is true. You may if you desire. When it comes to that text itself I believe that pertains to believers. But paradoxially, unbelievers would see the destruction caused upon Israel.

There are historians Josephus, Tacitus, Cassio Dio, and Suetonious to look into for the unbelivers part, however it very much is subjective.

Now today, all people who die are resurrected and I believe they will see the Lord Jesus, however because of their choice it seems they by their faithlessness do not go into the kingdom, even believers who professed to be believers but in their heart they denied God, and or His Son.

I could be wrong, it is all based on faith, due to the subject matter pertaining to them then.

All the best.

 

[ewq1938]

Hello ewq,

Many people suggest this.

I dont believe that is true. You may if you desire. When it comes to that text itself I believe that pertains to believers.

It says all, and mentions those who pierced him. All includes unbelievers, and the ones who pierced him were also unbelievers. The scripture shows you are wrong. If unbelievers did not see Christ return in 70AD, he did not return then.

 

[MatthewG]

It says all, and mentions those who pierced him. All includes unbelievers, and the ones who pierced him were also unbelievers. The scripture shows you are wrong. If unbelievers did not see Christ return in 70AD, he did not return then.

Perhaps it would be those who turned to God after having put the Son of God to death. You may continue to persist in your view if you decide so…

Remember when Jesus told the high ranking council memeber,

“Those who had arrested Jesus led Him away to Caiaphas, the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were gathered together. But Peter was following Him at a distance, as far as the courtyard of the high priest, and he came inside and sat down with the officers to see the outcome. Now the chief priests and the entire Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus, so that they might put Him to death. They did not find any, even though many false witnesses came forward. But later on two came forward, and said, “This man stated, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.’ ” The high priest stood up and said to Him, “Do You offer no answer for what these men are testifying against You?” But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I place You under oath by the living God, to tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26‬:‭57‬-‭64‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Matthew 26:64 Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download

Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

bible.com

How is that possible if it doesnt mean that perhaps those who did kill Jesus turned their life over to Him, and they would become part of the bride? There are always plausible scenarios compared to the traditional thinking of every eye meaning believer and unbeliever.

It could be paradoxically taken; if one can consider it in that sense, however people must make their own decision and you have made your own which is completely okay with me. My faith is in Jesus having come back then in that day, even the temple fell as promised, and the kindered of the earth (believers of the tribes of Isreal in that land), and unbeliever would also witness the end of the age promised by Jesus to his apostles. The great tribulation was a one time deal, and now the only deal we have today promised is dying. And I do believe everyone will be changed in the twinkling of the eye just as the bride was rescued then.

Unbelievers in that day in age wouldnt care if Jesus came back or not; and documentation of that period, will show one who considers it, the promised things mentioned to the four disciples by Jesus, the moon turning to blood, the great terror that would be fall the nation(s) (all the tribes of israel) the kindered of the land.

Which is why I believe the first church bride of christ would continue onward with more people coming to the Lord, because though those living breathing people “who were told to watch and wait to see the Lord”, and warned “that he had not come back just yet” when rumors said it pasted even in that day.

There has to be some merit to consider contextually, at least if one desires to look into these things. Those living breathing human beings in that day were told to wait and watch. And people make it as if today we are to still “wait and watch” for the great tribulation would come first and then, they would be rescued from the Wrath of God which would be poured out on the nation of Israel.

Its interesting though that Josephus does mention about Jesus in his historical writings, however he was not a believer; who lived out past the destruction of Israel, and wrote about it.

 

[Davy]

And as you can read this is also the resurrection of the dead in Christ at the same time.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The above has the second coming, the rapture and the resurrection of the dead in Christ, also showing there are living in the flesh believers on earth at this time.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

God shortens those tribulation days only for the sake of the elect believers otherwise none of them would survive the time of the great tribulation.
It says 'flesh', so these elect saved persons are still in the body before the 2nd coming and resurrection.
So where does this fit in with your theology of the mark of the beast and not being able to buy or sell in the economy, obviously all these statements are true.

Of course Christ's Church will go through the "great tribulation", which Apostle Paul shows in the 1 Thessalonians 4 Scripture, and that agrees with what Lord Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 about His coming AFTER... the tribulation to gather His saints.

1 Thess 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

I find that many brethren do not properly read that 1 Thessalonians 4 Scripture, especially that part in verse 16 about the dead in Christ being raised only... on the day of Jesus' coming, which points directly to the 'resurrection' on the LAST DAY of this world...


John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

That means of course, that day the "sleep" saints are RAISED is the "last day" of this world, which is when Jesus comes for His Church. And that definitely means AFTER... the "great tribulation", thus making man's Pre-trib Rapture theory a false doctrine.