Couple verses prove saved people are on the earth up until the 2nd coming of Christ, as in His actual appearing and our resurrection.

[Scott Downey]

And as you can read this is also the resurrection of the dead in Christ at the same time.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The above has the second coming, the rapture and the resurrection of the dead in Christ, also showing there are living in the flesh believers on earth at this time.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

God shortens those tribulation days only for the sake of the elect believers otherwise none of them would survive the time of the great tribulation.
It says 'flesh', so these elect saved persons are still in the body before the 2nd coming and resurrection.
So where does this fit in with your theology of the mark of the beast and not being able to buy or sell in the economy, obviously all these statements are true.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Yes!! After the rapture(catching up of believers) millions will know God and his word are truth and they will believe and call on God but then they must try to live in the years of the great tribulation and anti-christ rule=== Why do things the hard way?

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes!! After the rapture(catching up of believers) millions will know God and his word are truth and they will believe and call on God but then they must try to live in the years of the great tribulation and anti-christ rule=== Why do things the hard way?

So, you believe in another resurrection of believers then?
A resurrection of saints who died in the Lord when Christ returns proven by those verses.
Other believers who come on later will also then die, some of them and also have their own resurrection at a later date?

I have always been of the view that there is a resurrection of the just and the unjust. One for the righteous justified by God, and another for the unrighteous at the great white throne judgement of the Last Day. There is no mention of this other resurrection on a different day.

John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11
20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”

23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The resurrection of believers is on the last day only from scriptures, not another separate resurrection day.

 

[Scott Downey]

Anyway, consider and think about this.

 

[Scott Downey]

No more days after the Last Day.

 

[Keraz]

A resurrection of saints who died in the Lord when Christ returns proven by those verses.
Other believers who come on later will also then die, some of them and also have their own resurrection at a later date?

Revelation 20:4 is plainly stated. The only people raised when Jesus Returns will be the martyrs killed during the Great Trib.

The Last Day is at the end of the Millennium, when everybody who has ever lived will stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15

 

[Scott Downey]

Revelation 20:4 is plainly stated. The only people raised when Jesus Returns will be the martyrs killed during the Great Trib.

The Last Day is at the end of the Millennium, when everybody who has ever lived will stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15

Except nothing here about martyrs. Those who are dead in Christ are those who died in the Lord, believers in Christ.
Paul says they will rise first. Nothing about the millennium mentioned at all here. This is also the return of Christ, second advent, when He comes back. Would you deny them, those dead in the Lord the resurrection with their fellow believers to be with Christ in resurrected bodies, when the emphasis is they, these dead in the Lord will not be left behind, the ones alive don't get first dibs on being with Christ.
It also says we shall all be changed and get glorified bodies at that time, both dead and living believers.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[Scott Downey]

here is the whole passage, when Christ returns, God brings with Christ the spirits of these who died in the Lord. Paul gives Jesus own death and rising again as an example. The dead rising comes first, they are all resurrected and get glorified bodies first, then it is our turn. The point is God has not forgotten them and comforts the living that He will raise up these dead in the Lord first, so no one gets left behind.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

And as you can read this is also the resurrection of the dead in Christ at the same time.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The above has the second coming, the rapture and the resurrection of the dead in Christ, also showing there are living in the flesh believers on earth at this time.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

God shortens those tribulation days only for the sake of the elect believers otherwise none of them would survive the time of the great tribulation.
It says 'flesh', so these elect saved persons are still in the body before the 2nd coming and resurrection.
So where does this fit in with your theology of the mark of the beast and not being able to buy or sell in the economy, obviously all these statements are true.

The funny thing is those who teach pre-trib rapture use this same verse as proof!

 

[ewq1938]

No more days after the Last Day.

The eternity has days going on forever so there is no such thing as a last day. There are last days of various time periods but there is always a first day after those "last days".

There are a lot of last days.

There is the last day of the church age. The last day of the great tribulation. The last day before the thousand year age begins. The last day of the thousand year age. The last day of Satan's little season. The last day before the eternity begins.

 

[Scott Downey]

The funny thing is those who teach pre-trib rapture use this same verse as proof!

All there is, is the Word of God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[Scott Downey]

The eternity has days going on forever so there is no such thing as a last day. There are last days of various time periods but there is always a first day after those "last days".

There are a lot of last days.

There is the last day of the church age. The last day of the great tribulation. The last day before the thousand year age begins. The last day of the thousand year age. The last day of Satan's little season. The last day before the eternity begins.

The last day spoken of there, is the Last Day of this world, Last Day of the age.
Days are also marked by time, and time will be no more in the eternal kingdom, the eternal state is not marked by the passage of time, but by eternity.
Days are also marked by sunrise and sunset for now, but in the eternal state, the sun is deprecated, ceases to shine and the Lamb is the Light of the city where people and God dwell together in eternity, no need for the sun, moon.

Mark 13:24

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
Revelation 21:23
The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

After the resurrection things are over for this world and it's ways.
Luke 20
34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

So the resurrection which happens on the Last Day, marks the end of this world. No more 'flesh and blood' people. We shall all be changed.

1 Cor 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made[i] of dust; the second Man is [j]the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the [k]man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we[l] shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55 “O[n] Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

Resurrection. the same event in 1 Thessalonians 4 and in 1 Corinthians 15, and neither can people die any more after their resurrection of them to life from the dead.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

51 Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55 “O[n] Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”


Luke 20
34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

All there is, is the Word of God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

God's Scriptures has one Author and one correct interpretation. His meaning is what we need to seek.

 

[Scott Downey]

God's Scriptures has one Author and one correct interpretation. His meaning is what we need to seek.

About Revelation Book, it is told as a story with illusory themes, and like a parable has to be interpreted.
The story forms images in the mind.
The Harlot riding the beast for example, is really the evil city controlling the nations.
There is no actual women that exists.

As opposed to the letters to the churches which actually give accurate instructions to teach the church.

Revelation 17

The Scarlet Woman and the Scarlet Beast​

17 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying [a]to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.”

3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of [b]her fornication. 5 And on her forehead a name was written:

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS
OF THE EARTH.

6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

 

[Scott Downey]

This woman riding the beast is mystery Babylon.
Even the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven has the pronoun 'she' and 'her' referring to the city. It is however not a woman either, but it is the 'bride of Christ'. Our relationship with God is that the bride (church) has been joined to the Son as His wife and they are all of one spirit with the Lord just as in a man-woman marriage. So again, word pictures forming an image in your mind of a spiritual truth of how we are joined to the Lord as one spirit with God, and that we are the family of God..

Revelation 21
9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came [f]to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the [g]bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the [h]great city, the [i]holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

 

[MatthewG]

Though the only evidence that historically can be given is the destruction of Jerusalem, even the temple being brought down, in 70Ad.

By faith, i will choose to accept that Jesus came and was seen as a promised by those who are of faith and they were taken. There was no one left to record this happening and unbelievers did not see it cause they didnt believe. They did however see destruction, and desolation promised with 1,000,000 Jewish people having been killed and the loss of everything they one had. Their world or age came to and end.

Many people associate nations with all the nations that are around today, but the tribes of Israel was its one nation, however with factions 12 making them their own nations, and the surrounding nations at the time, should be consider instead of the arbitray belief that its the “nation of America”, “Nation of Austrila” or “the nation of Canada.”

Of course this is my opinion and overall view, because in Revelation it was stated Jesus was coming quickly without delay, and believers in that day in age experienced the one and only tribulation promised to come by Jesus which He would save them from.

Many today see that “double prophecy” and its gonne happen over again, but Jesus state it was a one time deal never to be so great again. Sure there are exteremist cults out there that kills Christians, and what not, which is sad; however human life will continue to move forward day by day, with the world being reconciled to God.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Though the only evidence that historically can be given is the destruction of Jerusalem, even the temple being brought down, in 70Ad.

By faith, i will choose to accept that Jesus came and was seen as a promised by those who are of faith and they were taken. There was no one left to record this happening and unbelievers did not see it cause they didnt believe. They did however see destruction, and desolation promised with 1,000,000 Jewish people having been killed and the loss of everything they one had. Their world or age came to and end.

Many people associate nations with all the nations that are around today, but the tribes of Israel was its one nation, however with factions 12 making them their own nations, and the surrounding nations at the time, should be consider instead of the arbitray belief that its the “nation of America”, “Nation of Austrila” or “the nation of Canada.”

Of course this is my opinion and overall view, because in Revelation it was stated Jesus was coming quickly without delay, and believers in that day in age experienced the one and only tribulation promised to come by Jesus which He would save them from.

Many today see that “double prophecy” and its gonne happen over again, but Jesus state it was a one time deal never to be so great again. Sure there are exteremist cults out there that kills Christians, and what not, which is sad; however human life will continue to move forward day by day, with the world being reconciled to God.

My printer keeps blinking at me. I still have to go to Walmart to get printer paper.

 

[No Pre-TB]

The funny thing is those who teach pre-trib rapture use this same verse as proof!

True. So how can we know who is right from the Bible?

Acts 3:21 - Christ cannot leave Heaven till all is restored or at least removed for restoration. Impossible on a Pre-Trib timeline

Job 14:12 - Impossible on a Pre-Trib timeline because that event is the 6th seal making our change sometime afterwards. Which Peter identifies in 2 Peter 3:10 or Isaiah 51:6

2 Timothy 4:1 - Impossible on a Pre-Trib timeline because the judgment and receiving our crown are tied to his appearing in his kingdom and that happens at the 7th trumpet per Rev 11:15-18

The first resurrection - Rev 20:5
Strongs defines the word protos as foremost in order of time, place, order or importance. No other resurrection can precede it. That implies a resurrection in Ch 4 an impossibility!

Last trumpet - eschatology is 2078 ésxatos (from esxaton, "end, last") – properly, last, final (the furthest, extreme-end).
If the last trumpet was in Ch 4, how are there other trumpets after it? Last means no more can follow at all.

 

[MatthewG]

My printer keeps blinking at me. I still have to go to Walmart to get printer paper.

Why don't you write that down the next time you decide to go shopping, or have someone go the store for you?