Crucifixion Day

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FHII

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Webers_Home said:
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Matt 12:40 . . As Jonah was three days and
three nights in the belly of a
huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and
three nights in the heart
of the earth.

Most children know the difference between day and night, especially those
afraid of the dark. That's more than can be said for some of the adults
around here.

/
What amazes me Webers is those who claim that three days and three nights is and idiom. Basically what they are saying is that they admit the Bible says that, but they don't believe Jesus meant what they said.


In other words, they are callinfg Jesus a liar.
 

epostle1

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Jesus rose early Sunday morning, the FIRST day of the week.
He died on Friday, day 1. There was plenty of daylight left, it counts as a day.
He was in the tomb on Saturday, day 2.
He rose early Sunday morning, the FIRST day of the week, day 3. There is nothing in Scripture that says He rose on Saturday, or Monday or Wednesday or any other day. He rose on Sunday, the first day of the week, thereafter called The Lord's Day.

NKJV
John 20
Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that stone had been taken away from the tomb.
Matthew 28:1 He Is Risen ] Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn,
Mark 16:2 Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb
Mark 16:9 Now when He rose early on the first day of the week,
Luke 24:1 Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning,
Acts 20:7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread,
1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.
Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

"But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread,...
Didache 70 AD

"Those who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).

"The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the holy scriptures,
(Didascalia 2 [A.D. 225]).

1 Cor. 16:1-2, The first day of the week is Sunday and this is the day the people gathered. This passage can easily be seen as the church meeting on Sunday. It has two important church functions within it: breaking bread (communion) and a message (preaching). Additionally, Luke did not use the Jewish system of counting days: sundown to sundown. He used the Roman system: midnight to midnight. This is a subtle point that shows the Jewish Sabbath system was not the one utilized by Luke.

Rev. 1:10-11,
The New Bible Dictionary says regarding the term, ‘The Lord’s Day’ in Revelation 1:10: "This is the first extant occurrence in Christian literature of τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ, "ta kuriaka hamera". The adjectival construction suggests that it was a formal designation of the church’s worship day. As such it certainly appears early in the 2nd century (Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, 1. 67)..

In many churches today, the term "The Lord’s Day" is used to designate Sunday, the same as it was in the second century.
I hope this is evidence enough to show you that the Bible does not require that we worship on Saturday. If anything, we have the freedom (Rom. 14:1-12) to worship on the day that we believe we should. And, no one should judge us in regard to the day we keep. We are free in Christ, not under law (Rom. 6:14).

by Matt Slick, CARM

Which is why I often go to 5:00 Mass on Saturday afternoon, I like sleeping in Sunday morning. :p
 

FHII

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Matthew 28:1 KJV
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.


It was still the sabbath and it began to dawn towards the first day of the week. This is when the women found the sepulchre empty. Jesus had already rose before the first day began at 6 PM Saturday. Remember that the Hebrew day begins at sundown.
 

FHII

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Webers_Home said:
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According to John 11:9-10, Christ's days began at sunrise.

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In those verses Jesus was not defining when a day starts. He doesn't even comment on sunsise. The Jewish day begins at sundown. That was so then at it is now.

Matthew 28:1 says that it was the end of the sabbath and began to dawn towards the new day. The end of the sabbath was and is 6PM Saturday.
 

Webers_Home

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FHII said:
In those verses Jesus was not defining when a day starts. He doesn't even
comment on sunsise.
Christ limited his days to twelve hours. I should think most people would
have very little trouble deducing from that information that his days began
at sunrise because this world's light is provided by the sun.

John 11:9-10 . . Jesus answered: are there not twelve hours in the day? A
man who walks by day will not stumble, for he sees by this world's light. It is
when he walks by night that he stumbles, for he has no light.



FHII said:
The Jewish day begins at sundown.
If the days that Jesus predicted at Matt 12:40 began at sundown, then when
did the nights begin that he predicted?



FHII said:
Matthew 28:1 says that it was the end of the sabbath and began to dawn
towards the new day.
According to Christ's division of day and night as per John 11:9-10, dawning
towards a new day is talking about sunrise.

Even little children know the difference between night and day; and they
know that night begins when the sun goes down and day begins with the
sun comes up. When a supposed adult can't even understand things as
simple as those, then I have to seriously question their understanding of
things that are beyond a child's ability to grasp.

Matt 11:25-26 . . Jesus said: I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and
earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and
revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

/
 

epostle1

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Webers_Home said:
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According to John 11:9-10, Christ's days began at sunrise.
We know that Jesus was crucified on a Friday because Scripture tells us that the Sabbath (Saturday) as approaching (e.g., Matt 27:62, Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54, John 19:31 – the “day of preparation” is Friday, the day before the Sabbath: Saturday, and the Sabbath was considered to begin on sundown on Friday, as with Jews to this day. John 11:9-10 is not about His days in the earth, you are forcing your opinion into the verse. The "day" of my dentist appointment is not 12 hours. You are being hyper-literal and I don't think Jesus is either.
Webers_Home said:
Christ limited his days to twelve hours. I should think most people would
have very little trouble deducing from that information that his days began
at sunrise because this world's light is provided by the sun.

John 11:9-10 . . Jesus answered: are there not twelve hours in the day? A
man who walks by day will not stumble, for he sees by this world's light. It is
when he walks by night that he stumbles, for he has no light.
John 11:9-10 is not about His days in the earth, you are forcing your opinion into the verse.


If the days that Jesus predicted at Matt 12:40 began at sundown, then when
did the nights begin that he predicted?
The first "day" is Friday, because at the 9th hour it was still day time. The first "night" is Friday.


According to Christ's division of day and night as per John 11:9-10, dawning
towards a new day is talking about sunrise.
John 11:9-10 is not about His days in the earth.


Even little children know the difference between night and day; and they
know that night begins when the sun goes down and day begins with the
sun comes up. When a supposed adult can't even understand things as
simple as those, then I have to seriously question their understanding of
things that are beyond a child's ability to grasp.
Then explain to this little child why a Thursday crucifixion is such a recent invention.

Virtually every Church Father who addresses the issue agrees with the traditional dating of a Thursday Last Supper, Friday Crucifixion, and Sunday resurrection. This includes those Church Fathers and writings mentioned above, but also Ignatius (105 AD), Barnabas (120 AD), Clement of Alexandria (195 AD), and many others. This chronology is firmly based on Scripture, and universally verified by Tradition...

...until the post 19th century cults came along.
 

Webers_Home

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FHII said:
The Jewish day begins at sundown.
I asked you that if days begin at sundown, then when do nights begin? Your
reply made no sense.





kepha31 said:
The first "day" is Friday, the first "night" is Friday.
If the first of Christ's three nights as per Matt 12:40 was Friday night; then it
logically follows that Saturday night was the second night. Where do you place
the Lord's third night in your chronology?


FYI: "It is a sabbath of complete rest for you. You shall humble yourselves.
Beginning on the evening of the ninth of the month, you shall keep your
sabbath from evening to evening." (Lev 23:32)

That verse is useful for proving that the seventh day of the Jews' week
doesn't have a lock on sabbaths.

Two more special sabbaths like Yom Kippur's are Feast of Trumpets (Lev
23:23-25) and the first and last days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.(Ex
12:16, Lev 23:5-8)

When people are unaware of the existence of special sabbaths, they
invariably mistake John 19:31 to be speaking of the usual seventh day
instead of the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread; which commences
at night with the Passover dinner of roasted lambs that were slaughtered
and cooked that afternoon prior to sundown.


FYI: John 19:14 verifies that John 19:31 is speaking of preparing for
Passover rather than preparing for the usual sabbath.

The secret to determining the correct chronology is in knowing that two
sabbaths occurred the week that Christ was crucified-- Passover's sabbath
followed by the usual sabbath. Passover's sabbath is often overlooked
because John Q and Jane Doe pew warmer typically don't really know all
that much about Jewish holy days.

/
 

epostle1

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f the first of Christ's three nights as per Matt 12:40 was Friday night; then it
logically follows that Saturday night was the second night. Where do you place
the Lord's third night in your chronology?
FYI: "It is a sabbath of complete rest for you. You shall humble yourselves.
He rose early Sunday morning, before that it was night on Sunday. Morning follows night.

Two more special sabbaths like Yom Kippur's are Feast of Trumpets (Lev
23:23-25) and the first and last days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.(Ex
12:16, Lev 23:5-8)
Luke 23:4,14; John 18:38; 19:4,6 - under the Old Covenant, the lambs were examined on Nisan 14 to ensure that they had no blemish. The Gospel writers also emphasize that Jesus the Lamb was examined on Nisan 14 and no fault was found in him. He is the true Passover Lamb which must be eaten.

None of your verses make any mention of 3 days and three nights.


When people are unaware of the existence of special sabbaths, they
invariably mistake John 19:31 to be speaking of the usual seventh day
instead of the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread; which commences
at night with the Passover dinner of roasted lambs that were slaughtered
and cooked that afternoon prior to sundown.


FYI: John 19:14 verifies that John 19:31 is speaking of preparing for
Passover rather than preparing for the usual sabbath.
FYI, it is a violation of Jewish custom to have dead bodies hanging around during the Sabbath. That's why the Jewish leaders asked to have His Body removed. This affirms His death on Friday. You need to read John 19:31 more carefully, you refute yourself.

The secret to determining the correct chronology is in knowing that two
sabbaths occurred the week that Christ was crucified-- Passover's sabbath
followed by the usual sabbath. Passover's sabbath is often overlooked
because John Q and Jane Doe pew warmer typically don't really know all
that much about Jewish holy days.
Apparently, neither do you.
/Beginning on the evening of the ninth of the month, you shall keep your
sabbath from evening to evening." (Lev 23:32)
Lev 23:32 has nothing to do with the time Jesus was in the belly of the earth, like Jonah in the belly of a whale. I suppose Jesus has a lot of nerve being dead on the sabbath.

That verse is useful for proving that the seventh day of the Jews' week
doesn't have a lock on sabbaths.
preparationsline.gif


updated 5/24/2012 3:58:32 PM ET
Geologists say Jesus, as described in the New Testament, was most likely crucified on Friday, April 3, in the year 33.
The latest investigation, reported in International Geology Review, focused on earthquake activity at the Dead Sea, located 13 miles from Jerusalem. The Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 27, mentions that an earthquake coincided with the crucifixion.
NBC News

Anchor point #1: Jesus died at 3pm and was buried on the preparation day (the day before the Sabbath). Friday before sunset, which would begin the Sabbath day.
Now exactly which Sabbath day, the first day of Unleavened Bread, or the Seventh day (Saturday) Sabbath?
Luke 23:52-56

Mark 16:2

The women viewed the sepulchre and the body of Jesus on the preparation day (Friday evening before sunset) and then rested according to the 4th Commandment, on the Saturday Sabbath. When the Saturday Sabbath had past, the women returned to the tomb at sunrise, and that day was the first day of the week (Sunday). Clearly then, Jesus was crucified on Friday afternoon, the preparation day for the Saturday Sabbath.

This Friday preparation day (paraskeue:G3904) is mentioned in Mat 27:62, Mk 15:42, Lk 23:54, Jn 19:14, 19:31 and 19:42. It is important to note that in the Bible, only the 6th day of the wk is defined as the preparation day (Exo. 16:5), for the 7th day Sabbath, but not the day preceding a yearly festival sabbath. The term always means what we call Friday, in both scriptural and non-scriptural usage.

Also note that in Leviticus 23 there is this important distinction made between the seventh day sabbath and the first day of unleavened bread.
Lev 23:1-3 (7th day sabbath) distinct from Lev 23:1-3 (feast of unleaven bread)

Anchor point #2: The seventh-day Saturday Sabbath was the day after the crucifixion, and we know this because the women rested that day according to the fourth commandment of God. Therefore, the crucifixion had to have occurred on a Friday, not to mention your abuse of John 19:31.

Mat 27:62-65 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,

Day of preparation...is that on Thursday too???
 

Webers_Home

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He rose early Sunday morning, before that it was night on Sunday. Morning
follows night.
If the night preceding Sunday morning was Sunday night, it logically follows
that the night preceding Saturday morning was Saturday night, and the
night preceding Friday morning was Friday night.

That chronology leaves you missing one of the three nights that the Lord
predicted at Matt 12:40 because according to the Good Friday model, Christ
was still alive on Friday morning and didn't expire until later that day. In
order for your method of keeping track of nights to work, the Lord would've
had to expire on Thursday afternoon.

/
 

liafailrock

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Just for the record, since children are mentioned in this thread, in virtually even case a child typically asks how Friday evening until pre-sunrise Sunday morning constitutes 3 days and 3 nights. I asked it at one time, and children (and even adults) I talked with asked it. The church then goes on to say why 3 days and 3 nights is indeed Friday-Sunday when for everything else (such as taking vacation days from work) certainly is not. It makes Christians sound mathematically and logically obtuse. Like I said, even a child knows something is wrong. Thus, I abandoned the Friday crucifixion day. Jewish idioms aside, Jesus wanted to make sure that no idiom was intended when he very precisely stated 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth which is supposed to dispel doubt. Now the latter phrase is subject to interpretation given that it could mean the tomb, or his death. I take it to mean the former but either way is not a long time time-wise since we are haggling over about 3 hours difference between the two. However, so that the Friday crucifixion theory remains in effect, I've even heard of theories where the "heart of the earth" started way back at his trial or earlier so as to take up some time so that it drags out the crucifixion until Friday. Me thinks that's a little too much poetic license to read that into the text to make it fit.
 

Webers_Home

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A very popular theory alleges that Christ's crucified body was restored to life
sometime between sunset Saturday afternoon and sunrise Sunday morning.

However; according to the passages listed below; Christ's crucified body was
restored to life on the third day rather than during the third night, so it just
won't do to insist he recovered before sunrise Sunday morning.

Matt 17:22-23
Mark 9:31
Luke 9:22
Luke 24:46
Acts 10:40
1Cor 15:4

Seeing as how that's the case, then passages whose wording suggests that
the women arrived at the cemetery prior to sunrise have to be understood to
indicate the hours when they traveled to the cemetery instead of the hour
when they arrived. For example Matt 28:1

"In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the
week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher."

The Greek word translated "came" is horribly ambiguous. It can not only
mean came, but also went. Here's the same verse from another version.

"After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene
and the other Mary went to look at the tomb."

Seeing as how the preponderance of evidence testifies that Jesus rose on the
third day rather than during the third night, then I must insist that, in this
case at least, "went" is the appropriate translation of the Greek word erchomai.

/
 

bbyrd009

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seems kind of strange that Jesus would not have said "three nights and three days," being a Jew? Which might be meaningless, dunno...but i have found that little anomalies like that can yield further illumination.
 

BreadOfLife

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Webers_Home said:
-
A very popular theory alleges that Christ's crucified body was restored to life
sometime between sunset Saturday afternoon and sunrise Sunday morning.

However; according to the passages listed below; Christ's crucified body was
restored to life on the third day rather than during the third night, so it just
won't do to insist he recovered before sunrise Sunday morning.

Matt 17:22-23
Mark 9:31
Luke 9:22
Luke 24:46
Acts 10:40
1Cor 15:4

Seeing as how that's the case, then passages whose wording suggests that
the women arrived at the cemetery prior to sunrise have to be understood to
indicate the hours when they traveled to the cemetery instead of the hour
when they arrived. For example Matt 28:1

"In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the
week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher."

The Greek word translated "came" is horribly ambiguous. It can not only
mean came, but also went. Here's the same verse from another version.

"After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene
and the other Mary went to look at the tomb."

Seeing as how the preponderance of evidence testifies that Jesus rose on the
third day rather than during the third night, then I must insist that, in this
case at least, "went" is the appropriate translation of the Greek word erchomai.
EVERY Lent, desperate people come up with all sorts of nonsense - from "rediscoveries" of the Gospel of Judas to the DaVinci Code to the timing of the Crucifixion - and EVERY year you're proven wrong.
No matter what your friends tell you - ignorance is NOT bliss . . .
 

epostle1

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bbyrd009 said:
similar to the "Lent" nonsense? :)
Q: What is Lent?
A:Historically, Lent is the forty day period before Easter, excluding Sundays, it began on Ash Wednesday and ended on Holy Saturday (the day before Easter Sunday). In recent years, this has been modified so that it now ends with evening Mass on Holy Thursday, to prepare the way for Triduum.

Q: Why are Sundays excluded from the reckoning of the forty days?
A: Because Sunday is the day on which Christ arose, making it an inappropriate day to fast and mourn our sins. On Sunday we must celebrate Christ's resurrection for our salvation. It is Friday on which we commemorate his death for our sins. The Sundays of the year are days of celebration and the Fridays of the year are days of penance.

Q: Why are the forty days called Lent?
A: They are called Lent because that is the Old English word for spring, the season of the year during which they fall. This is something unique to English. In almost all other languages its name is a derivative of the Latin term Quadragesima, or "the forty days."

Q: Why is Lent forty days long?
A: Because forty days is a traditional number of discipline, devotion, and preparation in the Bible. Thus Moses stayed on the Mountain of God forty days (Exodus 24:18 and 34:28), the spies were in the land for forty days (Numbers 13:25), Elijah traveled forty days before he reached the cave where he had his vision (1 Kings 19:8), Nineveh was given forty days to repent (Jonah 3:4), and most importantly, prior to undertaking his ministry, Jesus spent forty days in wilderness praying and fasting (Matthew 4:2).

Since Lent if a period of prayer and fasting, it is fitting for Christians to imitate their Lord with a forty day period. Christ used a forty day period of prayer and fasting to prepare for his ministry, which culminated in his death and resurrection, and thus it is fitting for Christians to imitate him with a forty day period of prayer and fasting to prepare for the celebration of his ministry's climax, Good Friday (the day of the crucifixion) and Easter Sunday (the day of the resurrection).

Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
"'For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tested as we are, yet without sinning' [Heb 4:15]. By the solemn forty days of Lent the Church unites herself each year to the mystery of Jesus in the desert." (CCC 540).

This is not nonsense, bbyrd009.
 

BreadOfLife

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bbyrd009 said:
the point being it isn't very nice to call other peoples beliefs nonsense, yes.
If the belief is unsubstantiated nonsense - then it's nonsense.
Christianity is a religion that is demonstrated by evidence . . .
 

liafailrock

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If I may chime in, while I won't call Lent nonsense, it does have its origins in other religions despite it being well-intentioned. Same with Christmas, Halloween and Easter, the latter since it's coming up name is derived from Ishtar, goddess of fertility and thus the reason we see rabbits, chicks and eggs creep into the biblical picture. It's a mixed bag and all from the same source. To stay biblical, the Disciples (and Jesus) observed the biblically mandated feasts of Leviticus 23 with the weekly Sabbath and 7 additional annual Sabbaths-- Passover/Unleavened Bread feast, Pentecost, and Tabernacles (preceded closely by Trumpets, and Day of Atonement and concluded by a separate Sabbath the Last Great Day (John 7:37). These feasts days were prophetic forerunners of God's plan for man's redemption, with only Passover/Pentecost fulfilled. Tabernacles is yet to come.
 
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