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Featured Crucifixion Day

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Webers_Home, Mar 1, 2017.

  1. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Jonah 1:17 . .The Lord appointed a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah
    was in the stomach of the fish three days and three nights.

    Matt 12:40 . . As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a
    huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart
    of the earth.

    John 2:19 . . Jesus answered and said to them: Destroy this temple and in
    three days I will raise it up.

    General use of the word "day" is somewhat ambiguous in the Bible. For
    example, at Gen 2:4, day indicates the entire creation endeavor.

    I suggest we narrow the meaning of day down to just one relative to
    crucifixion week by falling in line with Jesus Christ. Who, than he, is better
    qualified to tell us how to understand a day as it was understood during the
    years when he himself was living in Israel?

    John 11:9 . . Jesus answered: are there not twelve hours in the day? A
    man who walks by day will not stumble, for he sees by this world's light.

    Days divided into twelve equal periods of sunlight were regulated by what's
    known as temporal hours; which vary in length in accordance with the time
    of year. There are times of the year at Jerusalem's latitude when days on
    earth consist of less than 12 normal hours of daylight, and sometimes more;
    but when Jesus was here; the official number of hours was always twelve
    regardless.

    I don't exactly know why the Jews of that era divided their days into twelve
    equal periods of sunlight regardless of the seasons, but I suspect it was just
    a convenient way to operate the government and conduct civil affairs;
    including the Temple's activities (e.g. the daily morning and evening
    sacrifices)

    In order to avoid confusion; I highly recommend working with the 12-hour
    day that Jesus Christ gave us in his statement at John 11:9, i.e. let Day be
    daytime and let Night be nighttime; viz: Days are when the sun is up, and
    Nights are when the sun is down.

    So, the three days and three nights of Jonah 1:17, Matt 12:40, John 2:19-
    22 indicate three times when the sun was up, and three times when the sun
    was down.

    /
     
  2. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    According to Matt 26:17-20, Mark 14:12-17, Luke 22:7-13, and Luke 22:14
    16, Jesus ate his Passover dinner the night of his arrest.

    According to John 13:1-2, John 18:28, John 19:13-14, and John 19:31, the
    Jews ate their own Passover dinner after Jesus was dead and buried.

    Failure to discern the time difference between Jesus' Passover and the Jews'
    Passover invariably leads to unnecessary quarrelling and confusion.


    NOTE: It's commonly asserted that John's use of the word "sabbath" at John
    19:31 indicates that the preparation spoken of in his gospel refers to
    preparing for the usual week-end repose. However, according to John 19:14,
    the preparation in question was relative to Passover rather than the seventh
    day of the Jews' week.

    /
     
  3. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Lev 23:32 . . it is a sabbath of complete rest for you. You shall humble
    yourselves. Beginning on the evening of the ninth of the month, you shall
    keep your sabbath from evening to evening.

    That verse is useful for proving that the seventh day of the Jews' week
    doesn't have a lock on sabbaths.

    Two more special sabbaths like Yom Kippur's are Feast of Trumpets (Lev
    23:23-25) and the first and last days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.(Ex
    12:16, Lev 23:5-8)

    When people are unaware of the existence of special sabbaths, they
    invariably misunderstand John 19:31 to be speaking of the weekly seventh
    day sabbath instead of the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread; which
    commences at night with the Passover dinner of roasted lambs that were
    slaughtered and cooked that afternoon prior to sundown.


    NOTE: Seeing as how sabbaths run evening to evening, then the Passover's
    lambs are eaten during a sabbath night.

    /
     
  4. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Seeing as how Lev 23:32 reveals the existence of sabbaths other than the
    usual seventh-day repose, then I'm convinced in my own mind that there
    were two sabbaths during crucifixion week.

    There was the first day of the feast of unleavened bread which commenced
    at sundown the day that Christ was crucified, and there was the regular
    week-end sabbath spoken of at Matt 28:1 and Mark 16:1-2.

    So the real challenge is not finding the three days and three nights the Lord
    predicted at Matt 12:40 and John 2:19-21. No, an even more difficult
    challenge is figuring out where to place the two sabbaths in crucifixion
    week's order of events.

    A Catholic once suggested to me that the two sabbaths were together, i.e.
    they fell on the same date. So I countered that the suggestion would not
    work to Catholicism's advantage seeing as how the standard Good Friday
    model is short by one night.

    With a little creative finagling it's possible to produce three days with the
    Good Friday model by counting all day Saturday as one of the three days
    Christ predicted at John 2:19, and counting Friday afternoon and Sunday
    morning as two days; thus producing three. But no amount of finagling can
    produce three nights as per his prediction at Matt 12:40.

    The only way that Good Friday's one-night deficit can be rectified is by giving
    Passover's sabbath and the regular week-end sabbath their own dates; viz:
    have them run consecutive instead of coincident.

    That would push Jesus' crucifixion day to Thursday; but hay, you gotta do
    what you gotta do in order to come up with those three days and three
    nights or be the laughing stock of the non Christian world because even a
    third grader can see right off that the standard Good Friday model's
    arithmetic doesn't add up.

    /
     
  5. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Q: Well so what if the outside world is laughing at Good Friday just so long
    as Catholics believe in it?

    A: Irrational portrayals of crucifixion week contribute not just to the mockery
    of Catholics, but of all Christians the world over; and worse: the losing of
    people's souls in hell; here's why.

    Luke 18:14 . . I tell you, this man went down to his house forgiven rather
    than the other

    No; Jesus didn't say "forgiven" he said justified.

    The koiné Greek word is dikaioo (dik-ah-yo'-o) which essentially means to
    regard as innocent.

    In order for God to grant the tax man innocence, He couldn't merely forgive
    him; no, God had to exonerate him; and how does one legally do that
    without initiating a miscarriage of justice when there is evidence enough to
    indict?

    Well, according to the Bible, Christ was restored to life for our justification
    (Rom 4:25). In other words; though Christ's crucifixion was sufficient to
    obtain forgiveness for people's sins; his crucifixion alone wasn't sufficient to
    make it possible for people to obtain an acquittal.

    1Cor 15:17 . . If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are
    still in your sins.

    An acquittal can be defined as exoneration; viz: an adjudication of
    innocence, which is normally granted when there is insufficient evidence to
    convict. In other words: by means of Christ's resurrection, God was able to
    cook the books so that it appears the tax collector never did anything bad.
    On the surface; this looks very unethical, but from the divine perspective it's
    all on the up and up.

    It's not too difficult to appreciate just how serious this is relative to the
    outside world. If they can be persuaded to mock the sequence of events
    during crucifixion week, they can just as easily be persuaded that Jesus'
    resurrection never happened; viz: they will miss the opportunity to get their
    records expunged and thus be exonerated. A record of their sins will remain
    on the books, hanging over their heads like a sword of Damocles. Out
    ahead, at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15, those
    books will be opened for review.

    Mark 16:15-16 . . He said to them: Go into the whole world and proclaim
    the gospel to every creature. Whoever believes and is baptized will be
    spared; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

    /
     
  6. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    So Weber... Are you saying that Jesus's crucifixion was on a Thursday?

    My understanding is that it was on Wednesday.
     
  7. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    See post #4

    /
     
  8. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    I saw post 4. I was asking for confirmation.
     
  9. the stranger

    the stranger New Member

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    http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rsr_3days.htmand Esther 4:16 and 5:1
    The understanding on 'three days and three nights' were any portion of any given day meant a day or a day and night, as a figure of speech. Jewish writers wrote in the same way. It takes very little research to verify this and trying to understand it as 72 hours makes one trying to explain 12 verses away for everyone they use as 72 hours. our current usage of phrases and words are different then people of that time, thus why even the KJV had multible revisions, the everchanging communication understandings, even in our own culture.
     
  10. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    Does it even matter. it happened, now we have salvation, why do we need to argue over teh day or hr or second ,wiil it add to ones salvation. I think not. We waste so much time on things that really dont matter.
     
  11. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    See post #5

    /
     
  12. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

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    Many people think that Jesus Christ was crucified on a Wednesday (or sometimes Thursday), in accord with the “three days and nights” of Jonah’s stay in the fish’s belly, or that it was not possible for Jesus to be crucified on a Friday. Orthodox Christianity has always held that Jesus was crucified and died on a Friday afternoon (hence, Good Friday), and rose from the dead in the very early morning on the following Sunday (hence the Christian day of worship and Easter Sunday). The reason for this is as follows:”Three days and three nights” is simply Hebrew idiom. The phrase “one day and one night” meant a day, even when only a part of a day was indicated. We see this, e.g., in 1 Sam 30:12-13 (cf. Gen 42:17-18).
    We know that Jesus was crucified on a Friday because Scripture tells us that the Sabbath (Saturday) as approaching (e.g., Matt 27:62, Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54, John 19:31 – the “day of preparation” is Friday, the day before the Sabbath: Saturday, and the Sabbath was considered to begin on sundown on Friday, as with Jews to this day.

    We also know from the biblical data that the discovery of His Resurrection was on a Sunday (e.g., Mark 16:1-2-,9, Matt 28:1, Luke 24:1, John 20:1). And we know that “three days and three nights” (Matt 12:40) is synonymous in the Hebrew mind and the Bible with “after three days” ((Mark 8:31) and “on the third day” (Matt 16:21, 1 Cor 15:4). Most references to the Resurrection say that it happened on the third day. In John 2:19-22, Jesus said that He would be raised up in three days (not on the fourth day).

    It would be like saying, “This is the third day I’ve been working on painting this room.” I could have started painting late Friday and made this remark on early Sunday. If I complete the task on Sunday, then the chronology would be just as Jesus’ Resurrection was. The only difference is the Hebrew idiom “three days and three nights” which was not intended in the hyper-literal sense as we might mistakenly interpret it today.
    In fact, to say that Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday or Thursday afternoon (apart from the biblical difficulties of this assertion) will not solve this problem for those who wish to interpret hyper-literally without taking into account idiomatic and non-literal, non-“scientific” expression. The only way to get three literal 24-hour days would be for Jesus to rise at the same time He was crucified, and then (technically) He would be rising at the beginning of a fourth 24-hour day, whereas the Bible says this happened on the “third” day.

    But He died at about 3 PM (Mt 27:46, Lk 23:44-46: “the ninth hour” is 3 PM, because it was figured by the Jews from 6 AM).
    • So a literal “three 24-hour day” interpretation of a Wednesday crucifixion would have Jesus rising at Saturday at 3 PM,
    • and a Thursday crucifixion would have a Sunday, 3 PM Resurrection (or the discovery of same, at any rate).
    The Bible, however, has the disciples discovering that the Lord had risen early on Sunday morning (Lk 23:56: they rested on the Sabbath; Lk 24:1: at “early dawn, they went to the tomb”); so early, in Mary Magdalene’s case, that it was still dark (Jn 20:1).

    The understanding of idiom explains all this. For both the ancient Jews (6 PM to 6 PM days) and Romans (who reckoned days from midnight to midnight), the way to refer to three separate 24-hour days (in whole or in part) was to say “days and nights.” We speak similarly in English idiom – just without adding the “nights” part. For example, we will say that we are off for a long weekend vacation, of “three days of fun” (Friday through Sunday or Saturday through Monday). But it is understood that this is not three full 24-hour days. Chances are we will depart part way through the first day and return before the third day ends. So for a Saturday through Monday vacation, if we leave at 8 AM on Saturday and return at 10 PM on Monday night, literally that is less than three full days (it would be two 24-hour days and 14 more hours: ten short of three full days).

    Yet we speak of a “three-day vacation” and that we returned “after three days” or “on the third day.” A literal “three 24-hour day trip” would end at 8 AM on Tuesday. Such descriptions are understood, then, as non-literal. The ancient Jews and Romans simply added the clause “and nights” to such utterances, but understood them in the same way, as referring to any part of a whole 24-hour day.

    Thus Webers_Home's opinions don't hold water.
     
  13. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    The account in Ester doesn't prove the point. You have no proof that she didn't keep her fast a full three days and three nights. You have on the 3rd day she invited the king to a banquet. It was a wine banquet for him and Hayman.... Not her.

    It doesn't say when the banquet was held or that she consumed anything.

    And it is totally unrelated to the passion week. It is merely attempting to set a precedence, which it fails to do.

    Jesus was crucified Wednesday afternoon and rose shortly before 6 PM saturday. Its the only logical time table that fits. Not only brcause of 3 days and 3 nights, but because of many events that haooened inbetween.

    For example: can you explain how the women bought spices after the sabbath bst prepared them before the Sabbath? Answer: it can only be done if there were two sabbaths that weren't back to back.

    One of many problems that can't be solved with the traditional belief of the passion week.
     
  14. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    kepha31's explanation in post #12 is unacceptable because it fails to
    produce a third night as per Christ's prediction in Matt 12:40


    FYI: We can't go by 24-hour calendar days because Jesus limited his days to
    twelve hours (John 11:9-10). Ergo: according to Jesus, his day is when the
    sun is up, and his night is when the sun is down.

    The advantage of using the Lord's days and nights is that way even little kids can
    understand what he meant.

    Matt 11:25-26 . . Jesus said: I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth,
    because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and
    revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

    /
     
  15. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

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    Your explanation is unacceptable because you ignore Hebrew idiom.

    Little kids understand a 3 day vacation is not literal.
    If Jesus died on Thursday, that would mean He rose on the last day of the week, not the first.
    Allegedly, Thursday at 3:00 PM, the 9th hour.
    +12 hours takes us to Thursday at 12 midnight = 1 day
    +12 hours takes us to Friday at 6:00 AM = 2 days.
    +12 hours takes us to Friday at 12 noon = 3 days.

    According to your Thursday crucifixion / 1 day = 12 hours theory, Jesus rose on Friday afternoon. This is absurd.
    Jesus rose early Sunday morning. Friday + Saturday + Sunday. Do the math. It's 3 days, and a partial day counts as one day. Scripture is quite clear on this, and you have ignored my evidence.

    More hyper-literalism.
     
  16. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    There are three timing problems that need to be addressed:

    1. As Webers_Home stated:
    According to Matt 26:17-20, Mark 14:12-17, Luke 22:7-13, and Luke 22:14
    16, Jesus ate his Passover dinner the night of his arrest.

    According to John 13:1-2, John 18:28, John 19:13-14, and John 19:31, the
    Jews ate their own Passover dinner after Jesus was dead and buried.


    2. According to Matthew (26:2) and Mark 14:1 Jesus was at Bethany two days before the Passover. But according to John 12:1, Jesus was at Bethany six days before the Passover.

    3. If Jesus was arrested on Thursday evening and brought before the high priest then that trial finished at daybreak (when the cock crowed). When morning came the whole Sanhedrin assembled and then they handed him over to Pilate. According to Luke Pilate sent him off to Herod, who eventually sent him back to Pilate, who then condemned him. That’s a lot to pack into a few hours before being crucified at 3.00 pm on Friday.

    Yet for many reasons, as kepha has explained, Friday at 3 pm is the time the gospels give for the crucifixion. It is also the most appropriate time as that is the time the paschal lambs were slaughtered for the Passover meal in the evening.

    I came across an interesting theory which seems to clear up these apparent problems., not by proposing two Sabbaths, but two Passovers. The Temple kept a lunar calendar of (basically) 354 days. However Judaism in Jesus time wasn’t a unified religion and there was a large group called the Essenes. When the dead sea scrolls were found it was discovered that the Essenes kept a solar calendar of 364 days, and on that calendar the Passover fell on a Tuesday every year. Moreover recent excavations have shown that the Essenes lived not only by the dead sea, but also lived in a part of Jerusalem. (The traditional site of the upper room where Jesus celebrated the Passover is actually in the Essene part of Jerusalem)

    The suggestion is that Jesus, knowing he would be dead by the time of the Temple Passover, celebrated Passover according to the Essene calendar on the Tuesday evening.

    So when the synoptic gospels said the anointing at Bethany was two days before the Passover they were referring to the Essene Passover, which Jesus actually celebrated. Whereas John saying the anointing was six days before the Passover was referring to the later Temple Passover.

    This would also give more time for Jesus to be shuttled around between the High Priest, Sanhedrin, Pilate, Herod and back to Pilate. It would put the anointing at Bethany to the Sunday, giving two days to get from there to Jerusalem for the Passover on Tuesday.

    Of course this would imply that Jesus celebrated the Last Supper on Tuesday evening not on Thursday evening. According to my source for this a Syriac document from the second or third century states explicitly that Jesus celebrated the Last Supper on Tuesday. Other early documents state the same.
     
  17. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    -
    E = mc2

    E = energy
    m = mass
    c = the speed of light in a vacuum


    Try explaining Einstein's formula to a child and that will give an idea of just
    how difficult it would be to explain to a child some of the theories polluting
    this topic.

    If supposed adults can't even understand something as simple as the
    difference between day and night, then I have to seriously question their
    understanding of things that are beyond a child's ability to grasp.

    Matt 11:25-26 . . Jesus said: I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and
    earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and
    revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

    /
     
  18. liafailrock

    liafailrock Active Member

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    Hey Webers_Home: I remember when you were once a staunch Friday crucifixionist. LOL. I'm not making fun, but you'll find it interesting now being on the side I am on trying to convince the traditionalists that Friday just does not work. I am the gnomonist who used the sundial analogy to depict why "12 hours in a day" did indeed mean a full illuminated day. So when Christ said 12 hours in a day, he effectively was saying sunrise to sunset. 3 of those and three full nights (sunset to sunrise) is how long he was in the grave. That means he arose the same time of the day he was buried 3 days later, and the bible says clearly when that was.
     
  19. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    You mean like your two Sabbath theory?
     
  20. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Matt 12:40 . . As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a
    huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart
    of the earth.

    Most children know the difference between day and night, especially those
    afraid of the dark. That's more than can be said for some of the adults
    around here.

    /
     
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