Crucifixion Question

[Deleted member 26788]

Next time you reply would you mind hitting "reply" so I am sure to see it?
Ok so there is a lot there. Let's begin with the beginning which is your LAST sentence. The rest can wait for now.
You said, "they already paid for those sins with their own death"
So to you, physical death = sinlessness/righteousness/ justification? They all mean the same thing. Do you understand that?

Romans 6:23

 

[PS95]

Romans 6:23

I am very familiar with it.
"The wages of sin is death,..........
We sin - we die. That is our pay. Our wages are paid to us. It is what we are owed. YOU get what you deserve or are owed.
You DON'T DIE TO BECOME SINLESS! You DIE BECAUSE YOU SIN.

......................................................."but the gift of God is eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ.""
BUT- the GIFT of God is eternal life in CHRIST._ Here we get the opposite of what we deserve, IT Is the GIFT of ETERNAL LIFE.
It is not earned. It is not deserved.
There is a choice in Ro 6:23- sin resulting in eternal DEATH or Christ resulting in eternal LIFE.

To JWs, that means that when you physically die you have paid for your own sins & are are now sinless. That is wrong.
It does not say that there, or ANYWHERE in the bible. Physical Death can't not make anyone sinless. WE become sinless by being born again and having our sins forgiven thanks to Jesus who paid our sin debt for us. Do you want your sins acquitted? Then you must believe in Jesus as your Savior who gave His life for your sins. Then, you become a child of God and your sins are forgiven- gone- you are set free from sin. Sin will no longer rule over you because God gives His Spirit to you to live in you. This is sanctification.
Jesus PAID our sin debt & ONLY Jesus could pay our sin debt.
Paul is speaking about NOW in this present LIFE-- PLEASE READ THIS in CONTEXT-
RO 6: 1-23
6:7 is 1/7 of one sentence- is speaking about how we are crucified with Christ NOW and our body of sin dying NOW to be set free of our sins.
Always read IN context.

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You sins must be atoned for by the ONE who is sinless. That is Christ.
You must be forgiven your sins. God provides. The bible teaches that over and over and over again--> Jesus paid for our sins.
You must believe God ,and be born anew to receive the Holy Spirit and walk in newness of life NOW. Otherwise death awaits you eternally- 2nd death. You will be raised unrighteous and sent to the lake of fire. There IS NO 2nd chance to earn eternal life. ITIS A GIFT.

 

[PS95]

Romans 6:23

Jesus did not only pay for Adam's sin- READ THESE! There are more- just ask if needed

Eph 1:7- He is so rich in kindness and grace that He purchased our freedom with the blood of His Son and FORGAVE our sins.

Col 2:12-13 12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—

1 Peter2:21- 24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. 25For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

1 Cor 15:3 For I handed down to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

1 Peter 3:18-19 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,

Isa 53:5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.

2 Cor 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him

Ro 5:16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

1 Timothy 2:5
5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Gal 1:4 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5to whom be the glory forevermore. Amen

1 John 3:5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.

1 Peter1:18-19 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your forefathers, / but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot.

1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Eph 2:3-5 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Luke 1:77 To give to His people the knowledge of salvation By the forgiveness of their sins,

 

[PS95]

Ps95,

I like to think of our spiritual journey as growing from childhood into maturity. Over time, we develop and strengthen our inner, spiritual self, learning and growing closer to God. When someone passes away, I believe they’re lovingly given a new "mansion"—a spiritual home prepared by God. It’s something beautiful and personal that reflects who they’ve become in Him.

Paul speaks about varying levels of glory, just like the different measures of faith we each carry. Some may be deeply close to God, while others might feel a bit more distant—but all are embraced in His grace.

God is both fair and just. He gives to each person what they've truly earned through their life in Yeshua. As we live, we store spiritual treasures in heaven—reflections of the love, faith, and choices held in our hearts. In the end, Yahavah will lovingly judge, offering each person a reward that fits them perfectly.

And yes, God has made space for everyone, even for those who dwell outside the kingdom. Nothing is overlooked in His plan.

I have never heard of a Christian who doesn't believe in the resurrection of the body.

 

[MatthewG]

I have never heard of a Christian who doesn't believe in the resurrection of the body.

What do you mean? The spiritual mansion is the spiritual body of the person which they receive from Yahavah.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

I am very familiar with it.
"The wages of sin is death,..........
We sin - we die. That is our pay. Our wages are paid to us. It is what we are owed. YOU get what you deserve or are owed.
You DON'T DIE TO BECOME SINLESS! You DIE BECAUSE YOU SIN.

......................................................."but the gift of God is eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ.""
BUT- the GIFT of God is eternal life in CHRIST._ Here we get the opposite of what we deserve, IT Is the GIFT of ETERNAL LIFE.
It is not earned. It is not deserved.
There is a choice in Ro 6:23- sin resulting in eternal DEATH or Christ resulting in eternal LIFE.

To JWs, that means that when you physically die you have paid for your own sins & are are now sinless. That is wrong.
It does not say that there, or ANYWHERE in the bible. Physical Death can't not make anyone sinless. WE become sinless by being born again and having our sins forgiven thanks to Jesus who paid our sin debt for us. Do you want your sins acquitted? Then you must believe in Jesus as your Savior who gave His life for your sins. Then, you become a child of God and your sins are forgiven- gone- you are set free from sin. Sin will no longer rule over you because God gives His Spirit to you to live in you. This is sanctification.
Jesus PAID our sin debt & ONLY Jesus could pay our sin debt.
Paul is speaking about NOW in this present LIFE-- PLEASE READ THIS in CONTEXT-
RO 6: 1-23
6:7 is 1/7 of one sentence- is speaking about how we are crucified with Christ NOW and our body of sin dying NOW to be set free of our sins.
Always read IN context.

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You sins must be atoned for by the ONE who is sinless. That is Christ.
You must be forgiven your sins. God provides. The bible teaches that over and over and over again--> Jesus paid for our sins.
You must believe God ,and be born anew to receive the Holy Spirit and walk in newness of life NOW. Otherwise death awaits you eternally- 2nd death. You will be raised unrighteous and sent to the lake of fire. There IS NO 2nd chance to earn eternal life. ITIS A GIFT.

can a dead person sin ?

 

[PS95]

can a dead person sin ?

The question is, are that dead person's sins forgiven in Christ or not?

 

[Titus]

Hiddenthings is a Christadelphian. you may want to learn about them before discussing anything more.

Ok, I'm grounded in the truth, John 17:17.
Thanks for your concern.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

The question is, are that dead person's sins forgiven in Christ or not?

​

Romans 6:7 states, "because anyone who has died has been set free from sin"
they have been been acquitted from sin .sin has been removed from the record

 

[PS95]

​

Romans 6:7 states, "because anyone who has died has been set free from sin"
they have been been acquitted from sin .sin has been removed from the record

Once again, you are using 1/7 of a sentence out of 23 verses to form a false doctrine. That is no way to read a letter. I will post it all again for you. Not that I think you will pay much attention..since you ignored it the first time. Paul is speaking about new birth in Christ. Sins of those in Christ are acquitted because they DIED with CHRIST, Figuratively.
READ all of this PLEASE
Romans

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

Once again, you are using 1/7 of a sentence out of 23 verses to form a false doctrine. That is no way to read a letter. I will post it all again for you. Not that I think you will pay much attention..since you ignored it the first time. Paul is speaking about new birth in Christ. Sins of those in Christ are acquitted because they DIED with CHRIST, Figuratively.
READ all of this PLEASE
Romans

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Do you claim to have a Heavenly calling

 

[PS95]

Do you claim to have a Heavenly calling

What is written there is for all believers in Christ. Either you are born anew or you are not. Likewise, either you choose eternal death as your deserved wage OR accept the undeserved gift of forgiveness & eternal life in Christ.---Ro 6:23
John 10:16-
There is ONE FLOCK and ONE Shepherd. Eph 4:4-6There is ONE body and ONE Spirit, just as also you were called in ONE HOPE of your calling; 5ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, 6ONE God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

There will be a new heavens and earth that comes down out of heaven from God, called the New Jerusalem. -God will dwell with us there. Rev 21:2-3
Rev 22:17- The spirit and the bride say, "Come" and let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take life's water it's free.

 

[quietthinker]

Hello Finnley,
I notice you have not responded to the many posts on this subject.

God is love. I see this as the totality of his reality/ being. As John reminds us; God is light and in him is no darkness at all.

My understanding is that God forgives gratuitously. He does not require payment of any kind let alone one of blood. I think that idea is a pagan inculcation to muddy the waters of a LOVE of such magnitude, we struggle to naturally grasp it.

We are asked to believe it, no strings attached, HOW we believe it becomes the daily journey of unraveling our inherited propensity to favour 'payment', in all its varied forms.

A payment for whatever is hardly a GIFT, which the Gospel tells us has been freely given.

 

[Lambano]

I don't fully understand sending Jesus to the earth to live as a man. Then, having him resurrected. And this is the crux of my question:

How does Jesus dying, and being crucified on the cross, equate to forgiving everyone's sins? How does Jesus dying equate to that forgiveness of sin for mankind? How does his blood then equate to the forgiveness of sin?

Basic questions: The Resurrection was God's sign that Jesus was indeed the promised Messiah. However, Messiah, rather than leading God's people to triumph over the unbelieving Nations as prophesied, was instead publicly tortured and executed by the goyim (aided and abetted by the leaders of God's own people) in a most humiliating manner.

It wasn't supposed to be like that.

What DOES Jesus's death mean?​

Where DOES a crucified Messiah fit in the overall story of God's people? The Big Picture?​

​

That IS the "crux" of the problem, isn't it? ("Crux" is Latin for "cross"; I assume the pun was intentional. I respect someone who can make puns in Latin.) These are the questions Paul and the early Christians must've struggled with.

 

[Lambano]

What DOES Jesus's death mean?

Romans 3:25 and 1 John 2:2 use the language of propitiatory sacrifice (assuming Paul's uses hilasteron the way it was used in the Greek culture at the time; in the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew scriptures, this word is used to refer to the lid on the Ark of the Covenant), so it looks like they fell back on the known conceptual model of a sacrifice for sin like the Levitical sacrifices. (Or the sacrifices of the pagan cultures around them, for that matter.) Penal Substitution leverages the "Propitiatory Sacrifice" model, though it adds an element of identification. And yet, the "Propitiatory Sacrifice" model has known problems.

The Hilasteron, from Raiders of the Lost Ark.

 

[Lambano]

I recommend NT Wright's The Day the Revolution Started for an analysis of some of the Big Picture issues relating to the meaning of Messiah's death.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

What is written there is for all believers in Christ. Either you are born anew or you are not. Likewise, either you choose eternal death as your deserved wage OR accept the undeserved gift of forgiveness & eternal life in Christ.---Ro 6:23
John 10:16-
There is ONE FLOCK and ONE Shepherd. Eph 4:4-6There is ONE body and ONE Spirit, just as also you were called in ONE HOPE of your calling; 5ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, 6ONE God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

There will be a new heavens and earth that comes down out of heaven from God, called the New Jerusalem. -God will dwell with us there. Rev 21:2-3
Rev 22:17- The spirit and the bride say, "Come" and let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take life's water it's free.

Do you claim to have a Heavenly calling

 

[Lambano]

You also have the Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) model, where one goat carries the people's sins away into the Negev desert, and the other goat is sacrificed to renew the Covenant. In this model, Jesus is both goats.

 

[GenerousListener]

I know the story of Jesus's birth, death, and resurrection. And I know the story of his crucifixion.

This is where my question comes into play. There is something I don't "fully" understand. I have a very superficial understand of my question. Hopefully someone can understand what I'm asking and help me to better understand.

I don't fully understand sending Jesus to the earth to live as a man. Then, having him resurrected. And this is the crux of my question:

How does Jesus dying, and being crucified on the cross, equate to forgiving everyone's sins? How does Jesus dying equate to that forgiveness of sin for mankind? How does his blood then equate to the forgiveness of sin?

WHY, did God (have to?) send his son to Earth for mankind? If I remember correctly, Jesus knew he was going to die, and was meant to die, for our sins. I know I'm repeating a bit here.

I do not understand how Jesus coming to the Earth as the Son of God, and dying on the cross equates to taking the punishment (for lack of a better word) for mankind and absolving mankind's sin.

Everything I've tried searching for to help me understand always brings me to articles, or videos, that talk about Jesus dying and doing it for all man.

No one talked about how that happens, or why that happens, with his death. At this point it is just an analogy. I don't understand the mechanics of how his death does all these things for us.

I hope this is making sense to someone. It's hard to describe what I'm wanting to know.

If anyone understands what I'm asking is willing to give me their precious time to help explain this to me I would so greatly appreciate their help.

I have no problem looking up scriptures if they help explain things as well.

I am empowered by Dr. Jordan Peterson on this. Please let me know [whether or not] this makes a difference for you.Search YouTube for this title:

JORDAN PETERSON DISCUSSES THE STORY OF CHRIST'S CRUCIFIXION ON JOE ROGAN EXPERIENCE PODCAST link:

 

[Treeline]

...WHY, did God (have to?) send his son to Earth for mankind? If I remember correctly, Jesus knew he was going to die, and was meant to die, for our sins. I know I'm repeating a bit here...

Let Jesus answer you-
"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him" (John 3:17)
And Jesus taught us how to tap into the holy spirit to enable it to download into us.