David Wilkerson's "The Vision"

[Bobby Jo]

...
Firstly, what you have to understand is that while the Lord gives His prophets the ability to see future events, He very rarely gives them the ability to see exactly when those events will be fulfilled, ...

I'm not sure why "rarely" seems to suggest that we NEVER know when. I have no problem understanding Bible Prophecy timelines. -- Certainly by now we should find those "fuzzy" prophecies in hindsight, and the remaining prophetic events in FULL VIEW in our windshield.

... The Lord's reasoning for doing this is simple. He does not want His people slacking off ...

Slacking OFF? -- I need a day off. There's so much to get done while it's still daylight, none of us can afford to rest. We can rest when we've done all we can while we can.



Perhaps people don't see the future clearly, because they're not even looking? -- Maybe if they looked, they'd see ...
Bobby Jo

 

[Hidden In Him]

I'm not sure why "rarely" seems to suggest that we NEVER know when. I have no problem understanding Bible Prophecy timelines. -- Certainly by now we should find those "fuzzy" prophecies in hindsight, and the remaining prophetic events in FULL VIEW in our windshield.

Bobby Jo, I view you as the epitome of someone who believes things are going to happen too fast, LoL : )

Not that that's an insult. I just think you are jumping the gun prophetically so soon that you're halfway to the finish line when the race hasn't even started yet.

 

[marks]

Ok, now let me teach you something here.

Firstly, what you have to understand is that while the Lord gives His prophets the ability to see future events, He very rarely gives them the ability to see exactly when those events will be fulfilled, and this was true of the entire New Testament church, including the apostles. The NT letters make it clear beyond question that they believed the Lord was returning in their time; every one of them. I can cite numerous verses for you, but I'm guessing you know what I am talking about. They unquestionably believed the Day was at hand.

They didn't talk specific times, DW did.

Are you so invested in this prophecy, in this particular brand of prophecies, that these things don't matter to you?

Prophecy is not of private interpretation. Holy men of God wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

Prophecy is not the prophet's own understanding of something. Prophecy is what God speaks through the prophet. That's what this passage means.

Paul never gave a specific timeline, Dave W did. Therein is the difference.

And in giving this time frame, it having been exceeded, this is not true prophecy.

And what we're told in the Bible is that if something isn't true prophecy, to not be concerned over it.

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

They didn't talk specific times, DW did.

I think you would have labeled the apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ as false prophets, marks, whether you realize it or not.

 

[marks]

I think you would have labeled the apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ as false prophets, marks, whether you realize it or not.

Absolute nonsense!

I think what is happening is that you want me to go away.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Absolute nonsense!

I think what is happening is that you want me to go away.

That's absolute nonsense! : ) I'm simply trying to show you how you would have likely responded to them in their context, given your position.

It's not a problem of the heart. It's rather a symptom of what you believe; a tendency to view things of faith skeptically.

 

[Huperetes]

I have always understood that the gift of prophecy and the office of a prophet are two different things. A prophet that is operating in that office can never be wrong. However, there is a possibility of error when one is simply operating out of the gift.

1 Co 14:29-32 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

We see that one is set up to judge the accuracy of the others. In fact, using the gift,Paul said they could all prophesy.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Two pieces of evidence:

Dan. 12:4 ..Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.​

We are living in the times where men travel some 60 to 600 mph; and where we have instant knowledge at our LITERAL fingertips.


And we are ~18 months into the 42 month tribulation (not the FALSE 7-years), but Christians have no clue!
Bobby Jo

If this is true then there goes the pre-trib rapture theory!

 

[Bobby Jo]

... you are jumping the gun prophetically so soon that you're halfway to the finish line when the race hasn't even started yet.

I'll propose that it might help to know where the starting line is. -- Did you want to know, or just guess!

Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

If this is true then there goes the pre-trib rapture theory!

Yeah, there are a LOT of false doctrines out there. My own pastor believes that the New Jerusalem will come down to earth, which will then be "refurbished" with ~ NEW oil fields, NEW ore deposits, NEW oceans (without the plastics and wastes which have been dumped over the last century), etc. ~. And while we could wax eloquently about all the misrepresentations, I think our thoughts are better served focusing on what is actually facing us. And global warming is ONLY on the list because when bright-lights start appearing over our major cities, the searing heat will cause GLOBAL WARMING!

Rev. 16:8 The fourth angel poured his bowl on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch men with fire; 9 men were scorched by the fierce heat, and they cursed the name of God who had power over these plagues, and they did not repent and give him glory.​

Bobby Jo

 

[marks]

That's absolute nonsense! : ) I'm simply trying to show you how you would have likely responded to them in their context, given your position.

It's not a problem of the heart. It's rather a symptom of what you believe; a tendency to view things of faith skeptically.

It's pure projection. It has nothing to do with me.

Given my position, I'd reject the Lord's Own Apostles!

It's kinda hard to believe I'm reading this addressed to me, and then defended, but, well, I hardly know what to say! Which does not come often.

"A tendency to view things of faith skeptically". Pure rubbish!

Rather, a tendency to hold things to the standard of Scripture. Not everyone can deal with that.

Hidden In Him,

Why do you attack my person? Why do you not simply address my arguments? Instead of addressing my view, you go after me. Think about this brother!

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

Why do you attack my person? Why do you not simply address my arguments? Instead of addressing my view, you go after me. Think about this brother!

I'm not attacking your person, marks. I wasn't even upset when I wrote it. I was simply giving you my honest reply.

"A tendency to view things of faith skeptically". Pure rubbish!

Rather, a tendency to hold things to the standard of Scripture. Not everyone can deal with that.

You define every position you take as "holding to the standard or scripture," which is precisely why I pointed to the scriptural example set by the apostles themselves. I did this to show you that by your own ultra-strict standards which actually supersede the standards of scripture, you would have judged them critically yourself, and likely have proclaimed them false prophets.

But if you still wish to talk about it, do you believe that they were proclaiming that the Lord was returning in their time?
If so, define for me precisely what you believe "their time" means in practical terms. The 1st century perhaps? Or maybe before all of them had passed away?

But give me an answer. Let's see what they were communicating to the early church when they made repeated reference to the Lord's return being "at hand."

 

[marks]

I'm not attacking your person, marks. I wasn't even upset when I wrote it. I was simply giving you my honest reply.

I'm not saying we're getting into a brawl, I'm saying that instead of attacking the assertion, you are attacking the person. You're making your argument that there is something wrong with me instead of something being wrong with my assertion.

You claim I'm too skeptical, that is, if only I weren't so skeptical I'd see the truth!

However.

My position is that the Bible tells us that if what the prophet prophesies does not happen, then they are not a prophet from God.

What DW prophesied did not happen. You claim it still may, just the same, not his actual prophecy. You have to rework it to keep it viable.

You define every position you take as "holding to the standard or scripture," which is precisely why I pointed to the scriptural example set by the apostles themselves. I did this to show you that by your own ultra-strict standards which actually supersede the standards of scripture, you would have judged them critically yourself, and likely have proclaimed them false prophets.

Overgeneralization, yet another fallacy. And still saying I'd call the Apostles false prophets? Are you hearing yourself?

And, are you actually telling me that the Lord's Apostles would advocate ignoring that the prophecy didn't happen? And that we should still hold on to it? Find a way to make it still real?

This standard does not supercede the standard of Scripture, it IS the standard of Scripture.

He said it, and it didn't happen, so it wasn't true.

But if you still wish to talk about it,

Do you want to talk about it?

Or do you want to talk about me? Cause it really sounds like you want to talk about me.

do you believe that they were proclaiming that the Lord was returning in their time?

I don't see a timeline given in Scripture, no.

DW did.

It's like Thomas. He gets such a bad rap! Doubting Thomas, people call him, as if this was somehow wrong.

"If they tell you He's come in the inner rooms, don't believe them," Jesus taught. "Hey Thomas! We were inside our room and Jesus came!" Thomas questioned this, following Jesus' instructions. And did Jesus chide Thomas for questioning them? No. He simply provided Thomas with the reason to believe.

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

I don't see a timeline given in Scripture, no.

I didn't ask you about any "timeline." Please answer what I did ask you specifically:

1. Do you believe that they were proclaiming that the Lord was returning in their time?
2. If so, define for me precisely what you believe "their time" means in practical terms.

 

[marks]

But if you still wish to talk about it, do you believe that they were proclaiming that the Lord was returning in their time?

That would be a timeline, and no, I don't see that in the Bible.

None of them prophesied that Jesus was coming in their lifetimes. If you think it through, if they had, they would have been false prophets, and not writers of Holy Writ.

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

That would be a timeline, and no, I don't see that in the Bible.

None of them prophesied that Jesus was coming in their lifetimes. If you think it through, if they had, they would have been false prophets, and not writers of Holy Writ.

Much love!

Alright. Thanks for the response.

Now, tell me then what the following verses were referring to. I will use KJV:

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching ... 37 For yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry. (Hebrews 10:24-25, 37)

3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. (1 Peter 4:3-7)

7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waits for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord draws nigh. (James 5:7-8)

4 Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice.
5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. (Philippians 4:4-5)

Now, are you denying that thru these passages the NT writers were telling everyone Christ's return was imminent? Yes or no?

 

[marks]

Alright. Thanks for the response.

Now, tell me then what the following verses were referring to. I will use KJV:

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching ...36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37 For yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry. (Hebrews 10:24-25, 37)

3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. (1 Peter 4:3-7)

7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waits for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord draws nigh. (James 5:7-8)

4 Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice.
5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. (Philippians 4:4-5)

Now, are you denying that thru these passages the NT writers were telling everyone Christ's return was imminent? Yes or no?

None of these say what DW said.

 

[marks]

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching ...36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37 For yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry. (Hebrews 10:24-25, 37)

We see the day approaching, but we do not say, in the next few years.

Let me ask you. Should this phrase "as you see the day approaching" be understood to mean that "this will happen in a few years"?

I'd say, no. To argue otherwise is to argue against the veracity of Scripture, but the truth is, this phrase, just like saying, "for yet a little while", neither of these give an actual timeline.

 

[marks]

3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. (1 Peter 4:3-7)

Again, no timeline here.

And again, to argue as if there were would be to argue against the accuracy of the Bible.

 

[Hidden In Him]

None of these say what DW said.

We see the day approaching, but we do not say, in the next few years.

Again, no timeline here.

Stop dodging and answer my question, LoL.

Are you denying that thru these passages the NT writers were telling everyone Christ's return was imminent? Yes or No?

Just answer the question.