'Death is swallowed up in victory' -When?

[quietthinker]

Our body will, but our consciousness will go from this life to heaven to be with the Lord and will return with Him. There should be no fear in our physical death when you really grasp this.

How do you get that from the text charity quoted? or from any other text for that matter?

 

[quietthinker]

Hi Chris,

I understand this to be talking about the redemption of our bodies, which is when our mortal body becomes immortal, either by transformation or by resurrection, whether we be asleep in Christ, or remaining alive at the time.

Death is the enemy of our mortal body, but not our living spirit, so when our mortal body becomes no longer subject to death, then shall be brought to pass the saying Death is swallowed up in victory, as mortal is clothed with immortality.

Much love!

You can be certain Marks that there are no disembodied spirits floating around anywhere at any time.

 

[quietthinker]

The OP #1 "Death is swallowed up in victory WHEN we are born again.

"The sting of death is sin."

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Jesus took away our sin. 1 John 3:5

sorry, not persuasive!

 

[quietthinker]

Hi Helen,

Just a small thing . . . "caught up in clouds" may mean that we are caught up into the water vapor that hangs in the sky, or that clouds of us will rise to meet Jesus. I believe the wording interprets correctly either way.

Much love!

Acts 1:9-11

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

[quietthinker]

and @marks


It is two stages, but if you only focus on the latter, you miss the condition for the latter. Death is swallowed up in victory BECAUSE Jesus took away our sin. THEN when our body dies and is resurrected, it will be changed and put on immortality. What is the problem with your statement and marks argument is you are only focusing on our body of flesh, rather than what Jesus came to do - take away our sin. That is what you highlighted. Don't you believe it has to do with sin?

'O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

You may not believe that Jesus takes away our sin, and that we must be born again and partake of the divine nature that does not sin, but that is what your scripture is about. If the sin is not gone, then the resurrected body of the unsaved will take on the sting of death forever. It is only through the removal of sin is there VICTORY.

Instead of VICTORY, the false doctrine that has been around for centuries is that we will always sin, and we will always be a sinner. That is Defeatism and doesn't even remotely resemble, VICTORY. Christians are not called sinners but children of God. 1 John 3:1 Maybe this is why the crucial message of the text was completely overlooked. It just isn't believed.

Separating body, spirit, soul has migrated from heathenism. For Christians to believe that it hasn't they must resort to all sorts of scriptural gymnastics and cobble a view together which the scriptures in its straight testimony does not support.
The quoted text by charity is clear...it doesn't need fiddling with to support a different view.

So the question arises....do we embrace this clearly defined explanation of Paul's in 1 Corinthians 15 or do we favour the preconceived ideas whose birth originates in the pagan theories thereby wrestling with the straight testimony of scripture?

 

[Mike Waters]

Hi Chris ...fun thread

I suppose semantics can be a form of "Fun", or may seem "petty stuff"

Semantics (ar per Google search):
The branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. The two main areas are logical semantics, concerned with matters such as sense and reference and presupposition and implication, and lexical semantics, concerned with the analysis of word meanings and relations between them.

For example:
"such quibbling over semantics may seem petty stuff"

 

[quietthinker]

We will all be resurrected, even the wicked. So where is the lack of the sting of death? It is the absence of SIN, wherein lies the Victory. For then is eternal life, that our spirit HAS ALREADY TAKEN ON WHEN BORN AGAIN. Without being born again, there is no Victory, but an eternal sting of death.

Excuse me if I'm clipped in my approach here....I'll get straight to the point.

Firstly.....the righteous dead are resurrected to immortality. The wicked dead are resurrected to receive their sentence of unworthiness ie death. The scripture speaks of this death as the second death.. .a death from which there is no return.... they are consumed in the lake of fire....gone for eternity. If you care to look it up its here: Revelation 20:11-15

Secondly.....any eternal life (immortality) that we have now is by faith only....we look forward to it, hope for it.......it is not possessed in this flesh and blood in the present as per 1 Cor. 15:50
'Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.'

Introducing the new birth into this is confusing the point and attempting to make it say that which it is not.

 

[Mike Waters]

Actually, the meaning is perfectly clear ..... but differs according to either the denominational background in which one was raised, or later morphed into, or according to one's personal theology if one has decided to 'go it alone'.
The only ones to whom it is not quite so clear are those who belong to the 'Darkened Glass' denomination.

 

[Enoch111]

Yeah, it's clear as crystal. I find it difficult to understand how the various theories re death and resurrection that don't align with this scripture can be held.

There are no *various theories* to be derived from Scripture.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Hello Mark, long time no chat.

For years I believed in the rapture because it was taught and I swallowed it...but after about 20 years I saw so many holes in it...so I threw it out 36 yrs ago.
Yes there will be rapture , just as when a spouse or child has been away and returns the joy is rapturous ....and will be when we experience the face to face with our beloved.

But the escape doctrine to save ourself from some tribulation , for me is pure fantasy and all about self.
But, we are sidetracking Charity's thread. LOL

Hugs...H

Wow, I found this interesting! It's like in the translation to Latin, they did not...correctly translate, isnt it? They put a word in there that more describes what we will feel than what will happen...that's really interesting!

 

[Waiting on him]

I heard an old, old story, how a Savior came from glory
How He gave His life on Calvary to save a wretch like me
I heard about His groaning, of His precious blood's atoning
Then I repented of my sins and won the victory
Oh victory in Jesus, my Savior forever
He sought me and bought me with His redeeming blood
He loved me 'ere I knew Him and all my love is due Him
He plunged me to victory beneath the cleansing flood
I heard about His healing, of His cleansing power revealing
How He made the lame to walk again and 'caused the blind to see
And then I cried, "Dear Jesus, come and heal my broken spirit"
And somehow Jesus came and brought to me the victory
Oh victory in Jesus, my Savior forever
He sought me and He bought me with His redeeming blood
He loved me 'ere I knew Him and all my love is due Him
He plunged me to victory beneath the cleansing flood, c'mon
Oh victory in Jesus, my Savior forever
He sought me and He bought me with His redeeming blood
He loved me 'ere I knew Him and all my love is due Him
He plunged me to victory beneath the cleansing flood
He plunged me to victory beneath the cleansing flood

Maybe this will help understand when Jesus receives the victory.

 

[Waiting on him]

 

[Nancy]

Wow Nancy ...never noticed that before. Christian Forums @ Christianity Board

Stands out when Job opened his mouth and cursed his day saying later
Job 3:16 Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.


Never paid attention that it said something similar in 1 Corinthians. Ecclesiastes 6:2-3, Revelation 6:13

"What strikes me as a little weird is when Paul say's "and last of all, as to the [child] untimely born, he appeared to me also."
Is he saying this because he wished he were among the original 12? You know, kind of like a "Born Too Late" thing (remember the song? ) I think in the Job verses it's speaking about not being born at all, or stillborn (which I think you did allude to) somewhere here. What confuses me about this particular topic is that God is never too late or early so...why the "untimely births". Please forgive my own ignorance, not at all good at study but I do like to find things I never noticed before and ponder on them. I have another one as well but, would be off topic here.

 

[Waiting on him]

"What strikes me as a little weird is when Paul say's "and last of all, as to the [child] untimely born, he appeared to me also."
Is he saying this because he wished he were among the original 12? You know, kind of like a "Born Too Late" thing (remember the song? ) I think in the Job verses it's speaking about not being born at all, or stillborn (which I think you did allude to) somewhere here. What confuses me about this particular topic is that God is never too late or early so...why the "untimely births". Please forgive my own ignorance, not at all good at study but I do like to find things I never noticed before and ponder on them. I have another one as well but, would be off topic here.

I can't believe your gonna withhold.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Please forgive my own ignorance, not at all good at study but I do like to find things I never noticed before and ponder on them. I have another one as well but, would be off topic here.

One verse that stood out to me a while ago is: Romans 12:5-7 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. [6] Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; [7] Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

It is verse 7) and the “let us wait” on our ministering and ...on teaching. “Let us wait on the Lord”, Wait on the Spirit 1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

If things you’ve never noticed before stand out ...ask Him and He will answer. My biggest questions have been things I’ve found offensive. That old message in my head conflicting with the new. Sometimes it has been the same question over and over for a year or more and then one day He answers. Sometimes He was answering all along, a little at a time. I’m ignorant and definitely need to be led and taught of the Spirit. A Teacher like no other.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

"What strikes me as a little weird is when Paul say's "and last of all, as to the [child] untimely born, he appeared to me also."
Is he saying this because he wished he were among the original 12? You know, kind of like a "Born Too Late" thing (remember the song? ) I think in the Job verses it's speaking about not being born at all, or stillborn (which I think you did allude to) somewhere here. What confuses me about this particular topic is that God is never too late or early so...why the "untimely births".

There is something significant there. Agree with what you said about Job but not so sure and wouldn’t be surprised if 1 Corinthians is not referencing and connecting Job there. Hosea 9:12-14 Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left : yea, woe also to them when I depart from them! [13] Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. [14] Give them, O Lord : what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.

Malachi 3:11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts.
“Before the time” no miscarrying?
Do not really know the significance of an untimely birth but only He said “I am the vine” and will bring forth fruit. not to a murderer but bring forth fruit unto God.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

There is something significant there. Agree with what you said about Job but not so sure and wouldn’t be surprised if 1 Corinthians is not referencing and connecting Job there. Hosea 9:12-14 Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left : yea, woe also to them when I depart from them! [13] Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. [14] Give them, O Lord : what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.

Malachi 3:11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts.
“Before the time” no miscarrying
Do not really know the significance of an untimely birth but only He said “I am the vine” and will bring forth fruit. not to a murderer but bring forth fruit unto God.

“Before the time” no miscarryjng of the Spirit. Do not really know the significance of an untimely birth but only He said “I am the vine” and will bring forth fruit. not to a murderer but bring forth fruit unto God.
Consider: 1 Corinthians 15:9-10 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. [10] But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

8 and last of all, as to the [child] untimely born, he appeared to me also.

declares God’s great depth of Mercy.

 

[marks]

You can be certain Marks that there are no disembodied spirits floating around anywhere at any time.

So true!

2 Corinthians 5:1 "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

 

[marks]

8 and last of all, as to the [child] untimely born, he appeared to me also.

If memory serves, this refers to one born from forced labor.

Much love!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

If memory serves, this refers to one born from forced labor.

Much love!

Matthew 11:25-30 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. [26] Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. [27] All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

[28] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.