'Death is swallowed up in victory' -When?

[Taken]

and @marks


It is two stages, but if you only focus on the latter, you miss the condition for the latter. Death is swallowed up in victory BECAUSE Jesus took away our sin. THEN when our body dies and is resurrected, it will be changed and put on immortality. What is the problem with your statement and marks argument is you are only focusing on our body of flesh, rather than what Jesus came to do - take away our sin. That is what you highlighted. Don't you believe it has to do with sin?

'O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

You may not believe that Jesus takes away our sin, and that we must be born again and partake of the divine nature that does not sin, but that is what your scripture is about. If the sin is not gone, then the resurrected body of the unsaved will take on the sting of death forever. It is only through the removal of sin is there VICTORY.

Instead of VICTORY, the false doctrine that has been around for centuries is that we will always sin, and we will always be a sinner. That is Defeatism and doesn't even remotely resemble, VICTORY. Christians are not called sinners but children of God. 1 John 3:1 Maybe this is why the crucial message of the text was completely overlooked. It just isn't believed.

Good Post.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I will greatly multiply thy sorrow

Ecclesiastes 1:16-18 I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, (Luke 1:48)and have gotten more wisdom than all they ...knowledge increaseth sorrow.

Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Philippians 3:8-10 [8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, [9] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: [10] That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

 

[quietthinker]

Paul saying, "being present with the Lord," means our consciousness (our spirit).

Please consider this CL.....in death there is no consciousness of passing time, it is as if the dead are asleep, the term which scripture uses often, eg. From the moment Paul closed his eyes in death to the moment when he is called from the grave in the resurrection it will be for him as a literal moment even though for the living thousands of years have transpired.

Given his description of this mystery in 1Cor. 15, in this sense for Paul and every other believer, death will be entering the presence of the Lord. I'm persuaded it is not saying that Paul entered God's presence 2000 yrs ago. The context tells us this.

 

[quietthinker]

They are scriptures, and very persuasive to me. How do you see their meaning?

As relied in post #83

 

[CharismaticLady]

Please consider this CL.....in death there is no consciousness of passing time, it is as if the dead are asleep, the term which scripture uses often, eg. From the moment Paul closed his eyes in death to the moment when he is called from the grave in the resurrection it will be for him as a literal moment even though for the living thousands of years have transpired.

Given his description of this mystery in 1Cor. 15, in this sense for Paul and every other believer, death will be entering the presence of the Lord. I'm persuaded it is not saying that Paul entered God's presence 2000 yrs ago. The context tells us this.

Consider this.

1 Thes. 4:
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Asleep just means we will never die. Even though our body is in the ground decaying, our spirit is alive and with the Lord and He will bring us back with Him. We are not asleep in heaven. We go from this life to the next in an instant when we die here. Believers to heaven, the unsaved to outer darkness until the resurrection, and then hell.

 

[quietthinker]

Consider this.

1 Thes. 4:
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Asleep just means we will never die. Even though our body is in the ground decaying, our spirit is alive and with the Lord and He will bring us back with Him. We are not asleep in heaven. We go from this life to the next in an instant when we die here. Believers to heaven, the unsaved to outer darkness until the resurrection, and then hell.

The theory of the immortality of the soul is a heathen lie....it has no place in the scriptures.
The danger of this view is it opens avenues for deceptions.....deceptions that a believer would shrink in horror from if he/she was aware.

 

[Timtofly]

Separating body, spirit, soul has migrated from heathenism. For Christians to believe that it hasn't they must resort to all sorts of scriptural gymnastics and cobble a view together which the scriptures in its straight testimony does not support.
The quoted text by charity is clear...it doesn't need fiddling with to support a different view.

So the question arises....do we embrace this clearly defined explanation of Paul's in 1 Corinthians 15 or do we favour the preconceived ideas whose birth originates in the pagan theories thereby wrestling with the straight testimony of scripture?

Nope, the "heathens" stole God’s creation and plan for things. Satan fed them thoughts pre-conditioning humanity to a false view of the truth. Why blame the Word of God on a false standard? Job was a righteous man and knew the truth, until Satan took all from him? Nope, Job remained a righteous man, and knew the truth. But instead of blaming God, he rationalized his condition on human terms and conditions. So no one can give Satan any credit for coming up with the terms. One can know when a "heathen" speaks and when a believer speaks, even if they use the same terms.

The spirit of humanity was separated when Adam disobeyed. It was part of the immediate death sentence. The other death sentence was the physical body. I am not sure if any one fully understands, "the soul that sins, will die." Sure it dies twice. Once to the spirit, and once to the body. So the victory over death is not just a new physical body, but a new spiritual body. And unclothed bodies without physical and spiritual property is a ghost. That is what Jesus gave up, that is how the OT saints appeared as when Jesus died on the Cross. It is not a dismembered spirit. It is a ghost without body and spirit. Or soul that is without either physical and spiritual body.

Paul was correct that even the ghost has not been given victory over death. Revelation 6 has the answer. It is all connected to the Atonement and full restoration of Adam's condition. 6000 years or less (because of the elects sake, those days were shortened. Matthew 24:22) of the punishment of toil/work at the sweat of the brow. So the full restoration depended on time. It was there in Revelation, but a mystery in the brand/curse of the number 666. God did not disclose to the newly forming church it would have to wait 2000 years. Satan was prepared if indeed the converted theologians were just smokescreens inserting enough truth, but too much other baggage. The latest being the corruption of the rapture, the search for a non-existent Antichrist, and this crazy search to attach a non-descript number to some human. This messed with Revelation 13. There is just Satan and a false prophet. The third person is the image itself a false version of the first and second Adam. The complete destruction of God’s plan. But God is going to finish His plan first.

Also God is still not willing that any should Perish. We still do not know when the church age will be completed. Revelation 6:9-11 is the restoration of Adam's disobedience. Those in Christ will receive their spiritual and physical body at the same time and in conjunction with the immediate opening of the 6th seal, because that was Paul's promise. But that is still only the part of the church. The church did cover all the OT saints because those were delivered from death first. Those first fruits, from Adam to Abraham to Christ. That was the fulfillment of all OT promises to those in Christ throughout the OT. It took the sting of death out of all those who died in Christ from the Cross until now. Now after the 7th seal, all of Adam's restoration will be complete, for all those who chose by faith to accept the Atonement.

There is also going to be a restoration for Abraham and Jacob's sake. There is still that last enemy that has to be conquered. The direct enemy of Israel and the nations Satan himself. If the church repents and does it's job, not in one world governmental ecumenicallism, but the original old foot and word of mouth spread of the Gospel itself. No longer doctrine, theology and the heavy burden of a harlot church bogged down in liturgy and works based deeds.

It is getting off one's high horse of pride and self righteousness, and in repentance putting aside the cares of this world and telling all of sin and the need to repent. The message of Jonah to a dead and dying world. Especially since there is going to be one last attack by death in the 4th seal where over 2 billion people die. Revelation 6:8:
"I looked, and there in front of me was a pallid, sickly-looking horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Sh’ol followed behind him. They were given authority to kill one-quarter of the world by war, by famine, by plagues and with the wild animals of the earth.

Yes, we do have to go through one more valley of the shadow of death. We have to face death without a sting, but face it we will. Not being prepared is very foolish and self centered. Only the Holy Spirit and his guidance will get us through. Then for the church the grave will be swallowed up in victory. Not an escape, but a full restoration.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The theory of the immortality of the soul is a heathen lie....it has no place in the scriptures.
The danger of this view is it opens avenues for deceptions.....deceptions that a believer would shrink in horror from if he/she was aware.

So you don't believe in eternal life?

 

[quietthinker]

So you don't believe in eternal life?

How did you arrive at that question CL?

 

[CharismaticLady]

How did you arrive at that question CL?

You said, the immortality of the soul is a heathen lie

 

[quietthinker]

You said, the immortality of the soul is a heathen lie

Let me qualify it...'natural immortality'. Does that alter the equation?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Let me qualify it...'natural immortality'. Does that alter the equation?

Yes. It has been my belief that when the immortal Adam sinned, that both his spirit and body became mortal. When we are born again, our born again spirit is immortal, and our mortal body will take on immortality at the resurrection.

 

[quietthinker]

Yes. It has been my belief that when the immortal Adam sinned, that both his spirit and body became mortal. When we are born again, our born again spirit is immortal, and our mortal body will take on immortality at the resurrection.

no doubt that is your belief CL but you won't find support in scripture for that view

 

[CharismaticLady]

no doubt that is your belief CL but you won't find support in scripture for that view

Tell me what your thoughts are on Adam's spirit and body before and after he sinned.

 

[quietthinker]

Tell me what your thoughts are on Adam's spirit and body before and after he sinned.

Let's start with Adam's creation....he was formed from the dust of the ground and God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, in other words, Gods spirit animated the dust and Adam became a living soul.

Let's have a closer look....the dust became animated or alive once God's spirit was breathed into it. God didn't give him a spirit he just breathed the spirit of life into the dust.....a bit like you turn the power on when you switch the light globe and bingo, it becomes a light.
Sooo, this combination of dust and breath becomes a soul......in other words a living breathing human being. Note, he didn't get a soul, he became one just like the element in the globe coupled with electricity became a light, it didn't get a light.

At death the process is reversed....the body becomes dust again and the breath returns to God who gave it.....the soul, what about it, well it just ceases to exist because it was the result of the combination of the former two.....now that they are separated it simply ceases to be.
The spirit is not an entity in itself and neither is the soul. The idea that they are, as I said in the previous post has been carried over from pagan theories cobbled together and extended in one form or the other from Satans original lie ie, 'you will not surely die'.

Now, let me address the issue of immortality......Adam was placed in the garden amongst which were two specific trees, the tree of life and that of the knowledge of good and evil. Of the tree of life they could freely eat....it was given to perpetuate life, of the other they were forbidden on pain of death ie, cessation of life.
Immortality is a condition where it is not possible to die or have life cease. We see from the record that Adam's life was conditional upon obedience, in other words he was able to die if he disobeyed. Adam did disobey and death to him and to his progeny was set in motion.....then God removed access for them (Adam and Eve) to the tree of life.

In conclusion.....we see from the record in Genesis that immortality was never a given in its own right. Scripture tells us that only God has immortality......we also see how God constructed the first human...the combined factors.

The angels are in a similar boat in that their life is dependant on obedience to God.....those that disobeyed/rebelled ie, Lucifer and his sympathisers will also eventually die ie, cease to exist.

I'm aware that my answer is protracted but I felt it necessary to lay out the details so that you can get a handle on the situation.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Let's start with Adam's creation....he was formed from the dust of the ground and God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, in other words, Gods spirit animated the dust and Adam became a living soul.

Let's have a closer look....the dust became animated or alive once God's spirit was breathed into it. God didn't give him a spirit he just breathed the spirit of life into the dust.....a bit like you turn the power on when you switch the light globe and bingo, it becomes a light.
Sooo, this combination of dust and breath becomes a soul......in other words a living breathing human being. Note, he didn't get a soul, he became one just like the element in the globe coupled with electricity became a light, it didn't get a light.

At death the process is reversed....the body becomes dust again and the breath returns to God who gave it.....the soul, what about it, well it just ceases to exist because it was the result of the combination of the former two.....now that they are separated it simply ceases to be.
The spirit is not an entity in itself and neither is the soul. The idea that they are, as I said in the previous post has been carried over from pagan theories cobbled together and extended in one form or the other from Satans original lie ie, 'you will not surely die'.

Now, let me address the issue of immortality......Adam was placed in the garden amongst which were two specific trees, the tree of life and that of the knowledge of good and evil. Of the tree of life they could freely eat....it was given to perpetuate life, of the other they were forbidden on pain of death ie, cessation of life.
Immortality is a condition where it is not possible to die or have life cease. We see from the record that Adam's life was conditional upon obedience, in other words he was able to die if he disobeyed. Adam did disobey and death to him and to his progeny was set in motion.....then God removed access for them (Adam and Eve) to the tree of life.

In conclusion.....we see from the record in Genesis that immortality was never a given in its own right. Scripture tells us that only God has immortality......we also see how God constructed the first human...the combined factors.

The angels are in a similar boat in that their life is dependant on obedience to God.....those that disobeyed/rebelled ie, Lucifer and his sympathisers will also eventually die ie, cease to exist.

I'm aware that my answer is protracted but I felt it necessary to lay out the details so that you can get a handle on the situation.

What do you feel happens at the resurrection. Besides a new body, do we get our soul back, AND spirit?

 

[quietthinker]

What do you feel happens at the resurrection. Besides a new body, do we get our soul back, AND spirit?

We are changed, both the living believers and the believers who have died through the ages, in a moment in the twinkling of and eye just as Paul describes in 1Corinthians 15.....he has a lot of detail in this chapter. You can also check 1Thessalonians 4.

The bodies of the raised dead as well as the living are glorified at the last trump. (not when they die) The breath of life will again animate the dust of the dead; they will be raised incorruptible.....they again will be souls....living souls.....incorruptible living souls.....and just to reiterate, this will happen when Jesus returns in the clouds and every eye on the planet will witness this.

Remember, according to scripture we are a Soul we do not have a Soul.....just like a pumpkin is a pumpkin, it doesn't have a pumpkin.
The confusion of understanding the terms Spirit and Soul is not because the scripture confuses it....it is because views and assumptions have been adopted from the pagan theories. These theories build on the lie that Satan told Eve, 'you shall not surely die'.....it is in direct opposition to what God told Adam....'you will surely die' ......the word 'surely' emphasises God's decree that will come to pass if they disobeyed. As a matter of interest, the word 'death' embraces not only the final cessation of life but everything in its train ie, misery, sickness, disease, pain, relationship breakdown with self, others and the environment, in other words, dying you will die.

The lie Satan tells always has the same underlying principle.....he says, you can break Gods Laws with impunity; you can disregard his directive; you can live by your own rules....if it feels good, do it.

Allow me to continue a little......What is the thrust of paganism and its bed buddy, the modern new age movement?
Fundamentally they say that unpleasant feeling ie, conscience and the slow burning anxiety that dismissing conscience brings can be gotten rid of by meditation ie, focusing on self or another term they use is 'emptying the mind'. There are many methods they go about doing this but it all boils down to the same thing.....silence conscience and you will feel 'free' ......both these position deny any responsibility towards God's directive (his Law)......even 'Christians' get on the bandwagon and misrepresent the intent of scripture by proclaiming that the law is done away with.....they want to keep what suits them and discard what doesn't.

Folk want to feel better by altering their consciousness in any form they can......I'm sure we are all familiar with some of these forms.....there is the one mentioned above, there is pursuit of money, sex, power, status, material possessions, religion, food, drugs in its many forms, alcohol and prescription pills to mention a few. These things have become acceptable in modern society to the point where trying to identify the cause of dissatisfaction (mental illness) has spawned a whole industry ie, psychoanalysis while denying its root cause.....believing THE LIE.

 

[CharismaticLady]

We are changed, both the living believers and the believers who have died through the ages, in a moment in the twinkling of and eye just as Paul describes in 1Corinthians 15.....he has a lot of detail in this chapter. You can also check 1Thessalonians 4.

The bodies of the raised dead as well as the living are glorified at the last trump. (not when they die) The breath of life will again animate the dust of the dead; they will be raised incorruptible.....they again will be souls....living souls.....incorruptible living souls.....and just to reiterate, this will happen when Jesus returns in the clouds and every eye on the planet will witness this.

Remember, according to scripture we are a Soul we do not have a Soul.....just like a pumpkin is a pumpkin, it doesn't have a pumpkin.
The confusion of understanding the terms Spirit and Soul is not because the scripture confuses it....it is because views and assumptions have been adopted from the pagan theories. These theories build on the lie that Satan told Eve, 'you shall not surely die'.....it is in direct opposition to what God told Adam....'you will surely die' ......the word 'surely' emphasises God's decree that will come to pass if they disobeyed. As a matter of interest, the word 'death' embraces not only the final cessation of life but everything in its train ie, misery, sickness, disease, pain, relationship breakdown with self, others and the environment, in other words, dying you will die.

The lie Satan tells always has the same underlying principle.....he says, you can break Gods Laws with impunity; you can disregard his directive; you can live by your own rules....if it feels good, do it.

Allow me to continue a little......What is the thrust of paganism and its bed buddy, the modern new age movement?
Fundamentally they say that unpleasant feeling ie, conscience and the slow burning anxiety that dismissing conscience brings can be gotten rid of by meditation ie, focusing on self or another term they use is 'emptying the mind'. There are many methods they go about doing this but it all boils down to the same thing.....silence conscience and you will feel 'free' ......both these position deny any responsibility towards God's directive (his Law)......even 'Christians' get on the bandwagon and misrepresent the intent of scripture by proclaiming that the law is done away with.....they want to keep what suits them and discard what doesn't.

Folk want to feel better by altering their consciousness in any form they can......I'm sure we are all familiar with some of these forms.....there is the one mentioned above, there is pursuit of money, sex, power, status, material possessions, religion, food, drugs in its many forms, alcohol and prescription pills to mention a few. These things have become acceptable in modern society to the point where trying to identify the cause of dissatisfaction (mental illness) has spawned a whole industry ie, psychoanalysis while denying its root cause.....believing THE LIE.

This doesn't answer what comes back WITH Jesus, if not our individual spirit.

"God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus."

Also, I believe that each spirit will be forever how they died. Revelation 22:11

 

[quietthinker]

This doesn't answer what comes back WITH Jesus, if not our individual spirit.

"God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus."

Also, I believe that each spirit will be forever how they died. Revelation 22:11

Yes, Jesus will bring back to life those that sleep in him.....this view is consistent with all other scriptures regarding this matter.
To see it as Jesus bringing folk with him from heaven to resurrect them from the dead (sleep) firstly, is not consistent with the rest of scripture and secondly, it doesn't make sense.

To elaborate....If they are already with Jesus in heaven what does he need to resurrect them from the dead for?...... are they disembodied spirits floating around? ....The resurrection is the great hope of all who believe. Trying to marry the idea of resurrection and already being in heaven prior to the resurrection is a human invention and as all human inventions, falls flat on its face under scrutiny.

 

[Timtofly]

Remember, according to scripture we are a Soul we do not have a Soul.....just like a pumpkin is a pumpkin, it doesn't have a pumpkin.

Would you say then the souls dies, but cannot die? I mean the same as, you are not death, you can just die. The soul died once to the spirit at the fall. Then the soul dies physically at death, but does not die.

The spirit is in heaven already. Why is dust re-animated to be changed? There is no time to re-animate, it already became a glorified body, in heaven. See Revelation 6:11, the dead already had their glorified body. It happened mere seconds before the rapture.