DECONSTRUCTION - How far is too far?

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St. SteVen

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This is somewhat of a follow-up to my previous topic from June 23, 2023:


Here's another video that talks specifically about the process of deconstruction that Sara Martin went through.


The question is: Deconstruction; how far is too far?
- Should we NEVER question our faith?
- Are reasonable questions with biblical answers okay?
- Is it okay to ask the really tough questions?
- Are there questions that would offend our brothers and sisters of the faith?
- Should we be concerned about easily offend folks when we need answers?
- What sort of questions are out-of-bounds for a Christian to ask?
- Should a Christian pull away from church to seek answers?
- Should a Christian leave church all together if they can no longer cope?

Let's discuss.

--- ADDENDUM ---

From post #123

DECONSTRUCTION is about re-evaluating our religious upbringing.
Long before this term emerged, Catholics were converting to Protestantism, and vice versa.
In fact, a person coming to Christ in this life deconstructs from their previous life.
DECONSTRUCTION is not the enemy, except to those who uphold tribalism loyalties.
 
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quietthinker

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The questions asked take on a different emphasis, a different nature after having met Jesus.

One questions from the crucifixion, the other from the resurrection.
One formulates questions from death, the other from life
One from darkness, the other from lightness.
One from before the wheel was invented, the other from the obviousness of the wheel
One from ones head in the sand, the other from unbounded horizons
One from a subjective prison the other from an objective breathtaking liberty

Of those glorying in their subjective self important cognition Jesus says, 'leave them, they are blind guides'
 
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Nancy

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This is somewhat of a follow-up to my previous topic from June 23, 2023:


Here's another video that talks specifically about the process of deconstruction that Sara Martin went through.


The question is: Deconstruction; how far is too far?
- Should we NEVER question our faith?
- Are reasonable questions with biblical answers okay?
- Is it okay to ask the really tough questions?
- Are there questions that would offend our brothers and sisters of the faith?
- Should we be concerned about easily offend folks when we need answers?
- What sort of questions are out-of-bounds for a Christian to ask?
- Should a Christian pull away from church to seek answers?
- Should a Christian leave church all together if they can no longer cope?

Let's discuss.
Awesome video and, we will always offend some IMHO. What God has shown me is that we are not to "fit in" but we are to "belong". The church, for the most part far as I have experienced over the last several years, is so watered down and worldly...I'd prefer NOT to belong! We are told in the last days that folks will not listen to sound doctrine so they "heap up teachers that will tickle their ears"...so very true :(

Good questions S.S.! But, the variety in Christendom is quite broad. So, I think you will get many different answers here :)
 
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St. SteVen

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Good questions S.S.! But, the variety in Christendom is quite broad. So, I think you will get many different answers here :)
Thanks,
Yes, I hope to hear from a broad range of fine folks.
But perhaps DECONSTRUCTION is most popular in evangelicals and fundamentalists. ???
If other denominations (and Catholicism) are experiencing this, I want to know their stories as well.
 
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Nancy

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Thanks,
Yes, I hope to hear from a broad range of fine folks.
But perhaps DECONSTRUCTION is most popular in evangelicals and fundamentalists. ???
If other denominations (and Catholicism) are experiencing this, I want to know their stories as well.
My guess? Yes, fundamentalists/Evangelicals will have more to say about it then CC. Just my opinion of course.
 
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Lambano

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Hah! You made me look up "Deconstruction". And especially "Christian Deconstruction". One of the articles made a case that the whole Reformation was an example of large-scale Christian Deconstruction. That may be what we're going through now.
 

CadyandZoe

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This is somewhat of a follow-up to my previous topic from June 23, 2023:


Here's another video that talks specifically about the process of deconstruction that Sara Martin went through.


The question is: Deconstruction; how far is too far?
- Should we NEVER question our faith?
- Are reasonable questions with biblical answers okay?
- Is it okay to ask the really tough questions?
- Are there questions that would offend our brothers and sisters of the faith?
- Should we be concerned about easily offend folks when we need answers?
- What sort of questions are out-of-bounds for a Christian to ask?
- Should a Christian pull away from church to seek answers?
- Should a Christian leave church all together if they can no longer cope?

Let's discuss.
Two things:
First, many folks today have been indoctrinated into a form of "fatal" skepticism, whereby objective, actual truth is unknowable. All sources of truth and knowledge are mistrusted, doubted, and unreliable to such people.

Second, "deconstructionism" is a misnomer. The process is mental and intellectual suicide, whereby someone, out of loyalty and deference to fools, runs over their former beliefs with a steamroller. The process lacks a basis in rationality and remains a deadly form of irrational skepticism.

Deconstruction is NOT a search for knowledge or the truth. It's simply a self-inflicted mental exercise meant to shake the foundations of all knowledge. Only fools engage in such mental self-pleasure.

Should we NEVER question our faith?
It depends. One should always be willing to change the mind if new evidence and sound reason present good counterarguments. One should never adopt an a priori fatal skepticism, whereby one is tricked into a false value system, believing that it is somehow "courageous" or intellectually respectable to doubt the ideas one has grown up with. That's nothing but foolishness.

God has granted human beings with a great gift, "to know reality the way it truly is." Knowledge is found in the wise and experienced people that God sends our way, including our parents and the things we can see with our own eyes. Skepticism, on the other hand, has never led to knowledge. And the ultimate goal of the skeptics is to make us doubt ourselves and to dehumanize us.

Are reasonable questions with biblical answers okay?
Yes, as long as we understand that "reasonable questions" are questions that arise from the Bible, not brought to the Bible. When we bring questions to the Bible, we aren't interested in what the Bible wants to say; we are interested in satisfying our curiosity.

Is it okay to ask the tough questions?
Yes, as long as we understand that "tough" questions, within the Christian context are those that challenge our existence. Who am I? What am I? Who is God? Who am I in relation to God? Who is man? Who am I in relation to man? Who is my neighbor? Who am I in relation to my neighbor?

Are there questions that would offend our brothers and sisters of the faith?
Any question that causes one to examine "orthodox" beliefs is offensive.

Should we be concerned about easily offending folks when we need answers?
One should seek the truth and follow the evidence wherever it should lead.
There are two ways to offend someone with our speech: 1) what we say and 2) how we say it. (cursing, insults, etc.)
Jesus never offended anyone (as far as I know) with his manner of speaking. But at times, people took offense at what he said.
The same will be true of us. We may inadvertently offend others with the truth we speak. This should not deter us from telling the truth.

What sort of questions are out-of-bounds for a Christian to ask?
In my view, no question is out-of-bounds.

Should a Christian pull away from church to seek answers?
No. The goal of deconstructionism is alienation. The enemy wants us to distrust our parents, friends, and pastors to disconnect us from our support structure. If my church is not teaching the Bible, I should find a new church, but I should never despise the meeting together.

Should a Christian leave church altogether if they can no longer cope?
Church, being but one occasion when Christians gather is not necessary or essential. The necessary thing is gathering together with other believers in Bible study and prayer support. If a local church is not building up the body of Christ, then start or join a group that is building up the body.
 

charity

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'That their hearts might be comforted,
being knit together in love,
and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding,
to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God,
and of the Father, and of Christ;
In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.'

(Col 2:2-3)

Hello @St. SteVen,

I have listened to the video. It is one person's honest appraisal of the journey that she has travelled. However, my faith is in God. I believe Him. It is as simple as that, so there is nothing to deconstruct. If I have any questions, it is to His word that I go. I do not look inward, I look upward, and live in thankfulness and praise to Him for His goodness and His grace.

That has not always been so, I have had my moments in the past of looking inward, and around me at others, but that was because I had not progressed to that position of quiet confidence that comes with knowing God, through the reading of His word, and believing what He says. Of knowing the completeness of the finished work of Christ, and of the acceptance in the Beloved that is ours, on the basis of the all-sufficient sacrifice that He paid on our behalf, when He took our sin upon Himself, and paid the penalty of it, so that the righteousness of God could be ours in Christ Jesus, and we be holy and without blame before Him in Christ Jesus our risen Lord.

In God's eyes I have died with Christ, been buried, quickened and raised with Him, and have ascended with Him to God's right hand, where I await the Lord's appearing in glory, when I and all of the members of the Body of Christ will appear with Him there. That is my hope. Praise God! (Col. 3:4)

Blessed assurance.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

St. SteVen

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Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed post.
I wanted all sides of this issue to be heard.

See if any who are presently deconstructing will come out on this topic. - LOL
I also want respond to your direct replies to my OP questions.
But not tonight. Very tired after a long hard day.

cc: @CadyandZoe
Oops, hit POST too quickly.
 
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St. SteVen

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Two things:
First, many folks today have been indoctrinated into a form of "fatal" skepticism, whereby objective, actual truth is unknowable. All sources of truth and knowledge are mistrusted, doubted, and unreliable to such people.
Fatal skepticism?
Is hook-line-and-sinker gullibility at the other end of that spectrum?
Balance is somewhere in the middle?

Many are struggling with issues of their religious upbringing.
Should they sweep these issues under the carpet?
How can they continue without resolving these things?
Second, "deconstructionism" is a misnomer. The process is mental and intellectual suicide, whereby someone, out of loyalty and deference to fools, runs over their former beliefs with a steamroller. The process lacks a basis in rationality and remains a deadly form of irrational skepticism.
The process lacks a basis in rationality?
I thought it was built on rationality. Isn't the problem you are having with it?

Did you actually watch the video?
You don't have to, but I invite your reaction to it.
Your post seems more like a response to the topic in general.
Deconstruction is NOT a search for knowledge or the truth. It's simply a self-inflicted mental exercise meant to shake the foundations of all knowledge. Only fools engage in such mental self-pleasure.
Mental self-pleasure?
The title of the video is:
"I never thought this could happen to me. How my Christian faith fell apart."
Does that sound like "mental self-pleasure"?
 
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St. SteVen

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Thanks for posting your responses to my questions this way.
Makes it easy for me to reply.
Should we NEVER question our faith?
It depends. One should always be willing to change the mind if new evidence and sound reason present good counterarguments. One should never adopt an a priori fatal skepticism, whereby one is tricked into a false value system, believing that it is somehow "courageous" or intellectually respectable to doubt the ideas one has grown up with. That's nothing but foolishness.

God has granted human beings with a great gift, "to know reality the way it truly is." Knowledge is found in the wise and experienced people that God sends our way, including our parents and the things we can see with our own eyes. Skepticism, on the other hand, has never led to knowledge. And the ultimate goal of the skeptics is to make us doubt ourselves and to dehumanize us.
You seem to have a big problem with skepticism.
Is there not a level of healthy skepticism?
I think my skepticism probably steered me clear of many bad things in life.
Are reasonable questions with biblical answers okay?
Yes, as long as we understand that "reasonable questions" are questions that arise from the Bible, not brought to the Bible. When we bring questions to the Bible, we aren't interested in what the Bible wants to say; we are interested in satisfying our curiosity.
I think most deconstruction is focused on things taught and done by the church, or particular denomination.
And frankly, there are many questionable things in the Bible as well. Which are typically white-washed with apologetics.
Is it okay to ask the tough questions?
Yes, as long as we understand that "tough" questions, within the Christian context are those that challenge our existence. Who am I? What am I? Who is God? Who am I in relation to God? Who is man? Who am I in relation to man? Who is my neighbor? Who am I in relation to my neighbor?
A limit to questions "within the Christian context"?
That seems to infer that questions, unless limited "within the Christian context", put a person OUTSIDE Christianity.
Which would be a "No!" to many tough questions.
Are there questions that would offend our brothers and sisters of the faith?
Any question that causes one to examine "orthodox" beliefs is offensive.
How do we define "orthodox"?
Was Jesus "orthodox"? No, he taught things OUTSIDE the orthodox religious views.
Should we be concerned about easily offending folks when we need answers?
One should seek the truth and follow the evidence wherever it should lead.
There are two ways to offend someone with our speech: 1) what we say and 2) how we say it. (cursing, insults, etc.)
Jesus never offended anyone (as far as I know) with his manner of speaking. But at times, people took offense at what he said.
The same will be true of us. We may inadvertently offend others with the truth we speak. This should not deter us from telling the truth.
Jesus never offended anyone?
I can think of a few examples. Like this one.

Matthew 23:27 NKJV
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs
which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.
What sort of questions are out-of-bounds for a Christian to ask?
In my view, no question is out-of-bounds.
You set limits earlier.
Perhaps this is a better reply?
Should a Christian pull away from church to seek answers?
No. The goal of deconstructionism is alienation. The enemy wants us to distrust our parents, friends, and pastors to disconnect us from our support structure. If my church is not teaching the Bible, I should find a new church, but I should never despise the meeting together.
Yes, this really addresses the BIG question on this topic.
How far is too far? Sobering, really.

I emailed a good Christian forum buddy many months ago concerned about this very thing.
Saying at my current trajectory, I anticipated being an atheist within five years.
He was very helpful, addressing atheism head-on.

He said we both know that there is something transcendent, outside of our earthly realm.
Atheism is an over-reaction to religion.

From a historic perspective...
Religion is a human means of exploring that other realm. None of us has got it right yet.
Should a Christian leave church altogether if they can no longer cope?
Church, being but one occasion when Christians gather is not necessary or essential. The necessary thing is gathering together with other believers in Bible study and prayer support. If a local church is not building up the body of Christ, then start or join a group that is building up the body.
Unfortunately, Christian fellowship tends to be an echo chamber.
Even the challenging questions I bring to the forum are met with varying degrees of displeasure.

Fortunately, there are enough fine folks on the forum that offer some empathy and understanding of where I am coming from.
Thanks to those brothers and sisters who have been welcoming to me, despite my rough edges.
 

CadyandZoe

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Fatal skepticism?
Is hook-line-and-sinker gullibility at the other end of that spectrum?
Balance is somewhere in the middle?

Many are struggling with issues of their religious upbringing.
Should they sweep these issues under the carpet?
How can they continue without resolving these things?

The process lacks a basis in rationality?
I thought it was built on rationality. Isn't the problem you are having with it?

Did you actually watch the video?
You don't have to, but I invite your reaction to it.
Your post seems more like a response to the topic in general.

Mental self-pleasure?
The title of the video is:
"I never thought this could happen to me. How my Christian faith fell apart."
Does that sound like "mental self-pleasure"?
I didn't watch the video, but I am not new to this. I have been helping believers with doubt for decades—a long time. It usually begins with a famous book written by someone who grew up in the church and has never faced a severe challenge until college. His or her college experience became the catalyst of a paradigm shift.

This isn't new. It began when college became available to the middle class, (late 1800's?) Prior to that, college was only available to the upper class of society, and college was intended to prepare the young "aristocrat" for leadership, teaching the humanities: theology, philosophy, history, civics, Latin, and Greek. (Languages help the student read The Great Books in the original language.) In America, this was called the "Liberal Arts", in answer to the question, "What does a student need to know in order to live as a freeman in America?"

Middle-class children, having learned about Jesus early in life from within a cloistered environment, needed to prepare for the overwhelming exposure to philosophical ideas and alternative viewpoints. Like lambs to the slaughter, Christian children were unprepared to give a rational defense for what they believed. Don't get me wrong, we have good reasons to believe what we believe, but giving a rational defense for what we believe takes the skill and training that most young Christians lack. It's no wonder why people lose their faith when they go to college.

One more thing, during the industrial revolution, businesses demanded that colleges produce engineers, and scientists rather than historians and philosophers. Many colleges in America revised the curriculum to include math and science courses and less of the humanities. And because of the Enlightenment the prevailing view favored science as the sole arbiter of truth and along with that idea came the idea of "absolute certainty." Whatever one could not know with "absolute certainty," one must abandon or at least hold with a loose grip.

In light of this, atheists regarded Christians as backward and unintelligent since Christians could not know that God exists with absolute certainty. Any young Christian who swallowed that poison began to question the faith. And some of them lost their faith while attending college because the Christian faith can't be known with "absolute certainty." During that time, all knowledge was questioned. Some followed the empiricists, doubting everything that couldn't be seen or experienced firsthand. Others followed the rationalists, who attempted to explain existence in terms of rational concepts and first principles.

Fatal skepticism?

What I mean by "fatal" skepticism is this. Fatal skepticism is a form of dubiety that forecloses on knowledge altogether. Postmodernism is a prime example. Such folks reject the idea of objective truth. Instead, "Truth" is what we all agree to be true. Truth does not conform to fact or actuality; truth conforms to consensus opinion.

How can they continue without resolving these things?
The only way forward is to face the challenge and come to a fuller knowledge of the truth. However, if one begins with the apriori assumption that parents can't be trusted, then the path will undoubtedly end up at apostasy. Perhaps, instead, one should examine the writings of Thomas Reid, who argued for "common sense" epistemology. Does it make sense to doubt my parents?

My point is this. When lost, it is foolish to doubt the map.

The process lacks a basis in rationality?
Perhaps that was a bit of an overstatement. My point is that although human beings have the capacity to apply rationality toward a critical examination of ideas, deconstructionism discounts tacit knowledge. We don't always know why we believe what we believe but that alone is not a good reason to abandon what we believe. (See Michael Polanyi: Personal Knowledge)

Critical thinking, as you may already know, is "the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgment." (Dictionary) Even so, how does Deconstructionism i.e., critical theory, define "objective?" Does it discount the supernatural? Does it discount eyewitness testimony? Does it discount trustworthy sources of knowledge? Where postmodernism is presupposed, is critical examination possible?

I didn't watch the video. I may have time this weekend.

I'll get back to you on that.
 

St. SteVen

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Here's another interesting video on the subject of Christian Deconstruction.
This is a reaction video to a John MacArthur sermon on the subject.

 
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St. SteVen

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Here's another interesting video on the subject of Christian Deconstruction.
This is a reaction video to a John MacArthur sermon on the subject.

Interesting to see how the church handles the threat of Christian deconstruction.
Quoting verses that claim they were never believers in the first place. Say what?
That Deconstructionists should be shunned. (terminate contact)
No wonder Deconstructions often (not always) end up as atheists, or "unbelievers" in the church.

The statistics show people leaving the church in droves. And this is the response.
Why doesn't the church reach out in love? Rather than compound the problem. ???

To be clear, I am still in the church. I still believe in God.
It would be ridiculous to claim that I never was "a believer".
Not to brag, but my commitment and involvement have been WAY above average.
I suppose I should testify as to when and how my deconstruction began. (next post)
 
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St. SteVen

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I suppose I should testify as to when and how my deconstruction began. (next post)
A family issue arose over the doctrine of hell.
My sister-in-law made the statement to her Mother that she
couldn't "believe in a God who would send people to hell."

I gave all the standard (biblical) answers to this doctrinal position.
Not to the sister-in-law, but to the family who was discussing this "problem".
My apologetics seemed hollow. I always knew this was a glitch.

The church knew it too. Hellfire and brimstone preaching had given way to
"eternal separation from God", whatever that means.

I did some research on the subject, and one thing led to another.
To make a long story short, I discovered Christian Universalism.
Also know as Universal Restoration, or Ultimate Redemption. (UR)

I had only heard BAD things about Universalism.
Even MORE research helped me to better understand it.
Next thing I knew, I was giving rebuttal to the arguments against UR.

Once you cross that bridge, everything comes into question.
And the church HATES to be questioned. A sure sign of insecurity.
 
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St. SteVen

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Too many unanswered questions to take anything away from this video.
Thanks for keeping your promise.
I suspect that she didn't leave Christianity; she left evangelicalism. These two are different.
Thus the topic question.
DECONSTRUCTION: How far is too far?
There is a whole range of possible outcomes.

I am in the deconstruction process, but still attend church weekly and serve.
Took my 93 year old Mom to church last Sunday. This week we are Greeters.
Next week we are putting out the coffee and donuts.

I don't agree with some of the doctrine, but I am still there.
These are lovely people, especially in our small group study. (cell group)

We are seniors now. I have spent most of my life in church and ministry.
Was a former church Elder and was involved with prison ministry, overseas missions...
Taught Adult Sunday School for years. Yada, yada... (yawn)

Now I find myself as a Theistic Agnostic.
I still believe in God, but I have a LOT of questions.
Questions the church doesn't want to hear about.

Like: Who really "wrote" the books of Moses?
That topic was removed from another forum.
Thus proving my point.
 
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CadyandZoe

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Thanks for keeping your promise.

Thus the topic question.
DECONSTRUCTION: How far is too far?
There is a whole range of possible outcomes.

I am in the deconstruction process, but still attend church weekly and serve.
Took my 93 year old Mom to church last Sunday. This week we are Greeters.
Next week we are putting out the coffee and donuts.

I don't agree with some of the doctrine, but I am still there.
These are lovely people, especially in our small group study. (cell group)

We are seniors now. I have spent most of my life in church and ministry.
Was a former church Elder and was involved with prison ministry, overseas missions...
Taught Adult Sunday School for years. Yada, yada... (yawn)

Now I find myself as a Theistic Agnostic.
I still believe in God, but I have a LOT of questions.
Questions the church doesn't want to hear about.

Like: Who really "wrote" the books of Moses?
That topic was removed from another forum.
Thus proving my point.
What do YOU mean by "deconstruction"? Why is it called that?

Are we talking about folks who grew up in a denomination and suddenly discovered erroneous doctrine?

Why do you seem to dismiss or despise your service?

What do you mean by Theistic Agnostic?

No faith can survive this level of scrutiny without an anchor. What is your anchor?

Paul's advice to us, living during this time, is this. "[E]xamine everything; hold fast to that which is good." 1 Thessalonians 5:21. If this is your purpose, the only way forward is Biblical inerrancy. The Bible speaks truthfully and without error. Place confidence in the Bible and let the word of God be your guide. If "deconstruction" is a critical examination of doctrine, then the Bible serves as your counterpoise.
 

St. SteVen

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Wow. These are some GREAT questions. Thanks for engaging on this subject.
What do YOU mean by "deconstruction"? Why is it called that?
I didn't invent the term. I discovered it.
An internet search brings up tons of results. Especially YouTube.

It is called deconstruction because it is about taking apart and re-examining the beliefs we received from the church.
Are we talking about folks who grew up in a denomination and suddenly discovered erroneous doctrine?
Yes. For me it was the hell doctrine. Others have their own "sticking" points. Something doesn't add up.
Why do you seem to dismiss or despise your service?
No, no... not despise, nor dismiss.
I wanted to give you a sense of where I am in my Christian maturity.
Too much information would seem like bragging.
My "yawn" was meant as humor.
What do you mean by Theistic Agnostic?
Most Christians bristtle at the term "Agnostic".

I wrote:
"I still believe in God, but I have a LOT of questions.
Questions the church doesn't want to hear about."

"I still believe in God" = Theistic
"I have a LOT of questions" = Agnostic
No faith can survive this level of scrutiny without an anchor. What is your anchor?
I have a relationship with God.

The church is NOT God. And the Bible is NOT God.
I have a relationship with both, but they are NOT God.

I don't have a problem with God, but I do have problems with both the church and the Bible.
Paul's advice to us, living during this time, is this. "[E]xamine everything; hold fast to that which is good." 1 Thessalonians 5:21. If this is your purpose, the only way forward is Biblical inerrancy. The Bible speaks truthfully and without error. Place confidence in the Bible and let the word of God be your guide. If "deconstruction" is a critical examination of doctrine, then the Bible serves as your counterpoise.
Right. Eat the meat, and spit out the bones.

Biblical inerrancy is a dogmatic presumption. It simply isn't true. IMHO
I apologize if that is insulting, but plenty has been written on the subject.
Ask any atheist, they'll provide a long list of errors.

And honestly, do you know where our Bible came from?
- We don't have the original manuscripts.
- We do have fragments of copies of copies of copies...
- There are vastly differing methods of translation that "guide" the process.
- Even our Bibles (some of) have footnotes providing alternative readings.
- The western/Latin Church that provided us with the Bible had their
own doctrinal biases and politics involved,
- The books in the canon (at least three of them) were voted in or out.
- Which canon is inerrant?

Much more to say about all this. Thanks for your questions.

This topic addresses biblical inerrancy from the view of Bible translation.