Deconstruction Part 2: Into Apostolicity

[Johann]

The suffering of Christ was not meant to be a sacrifice to us...to be accepted by us or not. We don't get to accept Jesus for ourselves. That's not how it works. We need to be, rather, accepted into the Beloved. God does the accepting, not us. Jesus sacrifice was to the Father....NOT to us. No one comes to Christ unless the Father draw him/her. He decides these things. God decides who will be saved for honour and who will be saved into dishonour, who will be accepted and who will be rejected. God decides these things. Our role in this is to remain humble and meek...fearing before Him. Our role is to obey the Lord with all we have and are.

Error-

The suffering of Christ was indeed a sacrifice meant to atone for our sins, and it is offered to us to accept through faith. We do have the opportunity to accept Jesus as our Savior, and this acceptance is central to Christian belief. It is true that we need to be accepted into the Beloved, and this acceptance is initiated by God's grace. However, accepting Jesus involves our personal response to God’s call. Jesus' sacrifice was ultimately offered to the Father, fulfilling divine justice and love, but it is also extended to humanity as the means of reconciliation with God. No one comes to Christ unless the Father draws them, as stated in John 6:44. God's sovereignty in salvation involves His foreknowledge and calling, but it also includes human responsibility to respond in faith. Our role includes humility, meekness, and obedience, recognizing that salvation is by grace through faith, not by our works, as emphasized in Ephesians 2:8-9. We must respond to God’s grace with trust and submission, embracing the salvation offered through Jesus Christ.

Diametrically opposed to what you are teaching

 

[Episkopos]

And that is exactly what we are doing--we are believing eis/en Christ Jesus-what more do you want?

Or...believing things ABOUT Jesus and thinking that our acceptance of Him is what God is looking for. Believing INTO Jesus means we are walking with the Father WHERE He is. The omnipresence of God means we can do that while still in these mortal bodies. But in truth we can walk beyond this temporal reality...into an eternal reality...the kingdom of God...whereby we mirror God's divine nature and will. As He is so are we in this world.

 

[Lizbeth]

Maybe at first. People are adaptable, even programmable. Without proper direction, correction, doctrine, and good examples to follow...people can take a good thing and assume it means something it doesn't, even doing the very opposite of what the free gift/charity is meant to instill.

Nothing wrong with the free/gift or anything that God does....He does all things well.....the problem is always with the vessels He pours into. Yes, people certainly can be led or go astray...happening in spades these days.

Not at first, and not all. Its the ones who assume that what they have is all there is...or that they have no need to seek the Lord...since "they've got this". Those who deny the power of a holy walk as a reality to be lived out by seeking God's face at the throne of grace. These are the ones who will not repent...always learning, perhaps, but always flying under the radar when it comes to the truth. Falling short.

And even here, if we just remain humble and meek about it, there will be not a hard judgment based on holiness. God is merciful.

There is a need to grow, for sure. Not put down stakes and camp out permanently on the shore of the Red Sea, but keep following the cloud/pillar of fire onward. Agree with the need for humility, repentance, and being honest with oneself and with the Lord.

That's true...grace is deceitful. But the problem is that unless the depth of something is known, there's no telling where the red line is. Hence the need to tremble before the Lord.

Think we are being tested.....everything tests us...so grace tests us, as I think of it. This is why we are warned not to use grace as a license to sin. (If anyone goes and sins and lives like a heathen on purpose because they think the Lord will just overlook it because of grace, then they prove they are not being sincere in this walk of faith. Dangerous to keep on wilfully sinning.) The Lord like any good workman is testing His workmanship on an ongoing basis.......and if anything is not up to par, He does what is necessary on His end for our spiritual good......more nails here, some more chiselling and hammering there, or another dip in the crucible, etc.

Agree that we dont' know where the red line is for any individual, amen.....so we all need to be doing our sincere personal best in the race.......I believe He judges everyone individually....and not as man judges. There are so many variables in the life of each soul.....I dont believe God judges according to a dead letter. Our offering is accepted according to what we have, not according to what we don't have. That is why many who are last will be first and vice versa. Some folks have more difficult or easier battles to fight than others, that just seems to be a fact of life. (Looks to me like we tend to "inherit" our corner of the battlefield....the family and culture that we are born into etc.) Everyone doesn't measure up to the same standard in a way...there are greater and lesser in the kingdom of God, just as creation itself reflects this truth when we look around.

esus walked in the perfection of God while on Earth. He died and was raised again so that we might partake of His life. All we have to do is believe INTO Him and we have that same level of walk....a heavenly walk that is given to us by grace...a walk that is hand in hand in the intimacy of the eternal One. Inheriting is about receiving what we have done in these bodies.

If we have to walk in perfection 24/7/365 in order to inherit eternal life, I doubt there will be ten thousands upon ten thousands of saints in heaven, only a small group. If inheriting is only about receiving what we have done in these bodies then the thief on the cross would not have gone to paradise to be with Jesus.

 

[Lizbeth]

And that is exactly what we are doing--we are believing eis/en Christ Jesus-what more do you want?

Yes, think we did that when we came to faith, didn't we......which wasn't about us "accepting" Jesus, but was a work of God by His Spirit to give us faith that is not of our own. (Though still I believe we need to have faith to believe for "more".)

 

[Lizbeth]

Calling other believers delusional makes you delusional.

The concept of the imputation of God's righteousness in Christ to believers is a central tenet in Christian theology, particularly within Protestant traditions. This doctrine holds that through faith in Jesus Christ, believers are credited with Christ's righteousness, making them justified before God. Here’s an in-depth look at this concept using references from the Lexham English Bible (LEB), the Textus Receptus (TR), and relevant commentary.

Biblical Basis
Romans 3:21-22 (LEB)

"But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified about by the law and the prophets—22 that is, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. For there is no distinction,"
Textus Receptus (TR)
"Νυνὶ δὲ χωρὶς νόμου δικαιοσύνη θεοῦ πεφανέρωται μαρτυρουμένη ὑπὸ τοῦ νόμου καὶ τῶν προφητῶν, 22 δικαιοσύνη δὲ θεοῦ διὰ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ εἰς πάντας τοὺς πιστεύοντας· οὐ γάρ ἐστιν διαστολή·"
2 Corinthians 5:21 (LEB)

"He made the one who did not know sin to be sin on our behalf, in order that we could become the righteousness of God in him."
Textus Receptus (TR)
"Τὸν γὰρ μὴ γνόντα ἁμαρτίαν ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν, ἵνα ἡμεῖς γινώμεθα δικαιοσύνη θεοῦ ἐν αὐτῷ."
Theological Explanation
The doctrine of imputed righteousness is fundamentally about the legal standing of believers before God. It involves a two-fold exchange: Christ taking on the sins of humanity and believers receiving Christ’s righteousness. This is often framed within the context of justification by faith, a key element of Reformation theology.

Commentary Insights
Romans 3:21-22

The commentary on Romans often highlights the transition from the Law to faith in Christ as the means of attaining righteousness. This passage underscores that the righteousness of God is now accessible apart from the Law and is available to all who believe in Jesus Christ. The righteousness in question is not inherent in individuals but is attributed to them through faith, reflecting God's grace.
2 Corinthians 5:21

This verse is pivotal in explaining the nature of substitutionary atonement. Christ, who was sinless, was made to be sin for humanity's sake, meaning He bore the penalty of sin. In exchange, believers are granted the righteousness of God. This righteousness is not merely moral improvement but a legal standing before God, ensuring believers are justified and reconciled to Him.
Key Concepts
Imputation:

Definition: Imputation, in theological terms, means to attribute or credit something to someone's account. In the context of righteousness, it means that the righteousness of Christ is credited to believers as if it were their own.
Mechanism: Through faith in Jesus Christ, believers are united with Him. This union means that Christ's righteous life and sacrificial death are accounted to the believer. Hence, God views believers as righteous because of Christ.
Justification by Faith:

Romans 3:28 (LEB): "For we consider a person to be justified by faith apart from the works of the law."
This underscores that justification, or being declared righteous before God, is based on faith in Christ rather than on one's own works or adherence to the Law.
Substitutionary Atonement:

Explanation: Christ's atoning sacrifice involves Him taking the place of sinners, bearing the punishment that was due to them. This act satisfies the requirements of divine justice, allowing God to justly declare sinners righteous.
Conclusion
The doctrine of imputed righteousness is grounded in key biblical passages such as Romans 3:21-22 and 2 Corinthians 5:21. It is theologically rich, emphasizing the legal standing of believers before God through faith in Jesus Christ. By imputation, Christ's righteousness is credited to believers, ensuring their justification and reconciliation with God. This concept is central to understanding the transformative power of the gospel and the nature of salvation in Christian theology.

Go sit in the second pew and say three hail Mary's.
J.

Amen...think Epi has trouble with things that "passeth understanding", and imputed righteousness is one of them. If we judge by outward things then the peace that passeth understanding wouldn't make sense either. Things of faith transcend facts on the ground. Walk by faith, not by sight.

 

[Lizbeth]

Error-

The suffering of Christ was indeed a sacrifice meant to atone for our sins, and it is offered to us to accept through faith. We do have the opportunity to accept Jesus as our Savior, and this acceptance is central to Christian belief. It is true that we need to be accepted into the Beloved, and this acceptance is initiated by God's grace. However, accepting Jesus involves our personal response to God’s call. Jesus' sacrifice was ultimately offered to the Father, fulfilling divine justice and love, but it is also extended to humanity as the means of reconciliation with God. No one comes to Christ unless the Father draws them, as stated in John 6:44. God's sovereignty in salvation involves His foreknowledge and calling, but it also includes human responsibility to respond in faith. Our role includes humility, meekness, and obedience, recognizing that salvation is by grace through faith, not by our works, as emphasized in Ephesians 2:8-9. We must respond to God’s grace with trust and submission, embracing the salvation offered through Jesus Christ.

Diametrically opposed to what you are teaching

Yes. Sometimes "accepting" Jesus is just a manner of speaking...we know it is a work of God, much more than mere mental assent. Maybe all we did was to not harden our hearts and resist His Spirit when He came calling.

(Problem is that nowadays some don't seem to realize it's just a manner of speaking....eg, we don't come to Christ just by "saying a little prayer"......it only has power if the Lord is actually in it and working.)

 

[Johann]

Yes. Sometimes "accepting" Jesus is just a manner of speaking...we know it is a work of God, much more than mere mental assent. Maybe all we did was to not harden our hearts and resist His Spirit when He came calling.

(Problem is that nowadays some don't seem to realize it's just a manner of speaking....eg, we don't come to Christ just by "saying a little prayer"......it only has power if the Lord is actually in it and working.)

Correct on all accounts @Lizbeth
J.

 

[Episkopos]

If we have to walk in perfection 24/7/365 in order to inherit eternal life,

No. Inheriting life is not the same as entering into life right now. There is MUCH confusion on this. To be with Christ NOW means we walk in His perfection 24/7 365 days...or until we are not abiding in Him.

Inheriting life is based on mercy. God justifies even the ungodly for that standard. God will justify people regardless of their dogmatic stance. He judges people by their love...for Him AND for one another. You don't have to be a lip-service Christian to do that. So then inheriting life is based on obeying the commandments...not faith. To enter into life NOW we need faith...a faith that unleashes the grace to walk in Christ 24/7 365 days a year....or until our lack of obedience and faith sinks us the way Peter sank in the water when trying to walk as He walked.

I doubt there will be ten thousands upon ten thousands of saints in heaven, only a small group.

Well, until the great tribulation makes more saints than at any other time, the saints will be so few that Jesus questions whether there is any faith at all on earth. The Great Tribulation is the last kick at the can, saint-wise...and this will make many pure. More saints will be produced in a short time....by far...than the whole of history before that time.

If inheriting is only about receiving what we have done in these bodies then the thief on the cross would not have gone to paradise to be with Jesus.

No. Righteousness is about inhering life based on finishing well. A race is about where you finish. Read the law of righteousness in Ez. 18 and 33.

The righteous are not saved until the end...enduring till the end...or repenting before the end.

The holy are about the heights of love and truth and purity that these walked in while they still had a mortal body. Glory awaits these.

 

[Episkopos]

Calling other believers delusional makes you delusional.

You are simply defending delusional thinking here...not believers. I'm a believer in Christ WITHOUT the delusional thinking. So then one can believe in delusion or not...but delusion exists. All delusion requires someone to believe in it. That's what beliefs do. Faith in Christ is something very different.

The concept of the imputation of God's righteousness in Christ to believers is a central tenet in Christian theology,

Reformist theology you mean. Reformists are in a great minority in the Body of Christ. Catholicism AND Orthodoxy...as well as well informed believers of any kind...refute the concept of imputation of God's righteousness to anyone. It's preposterous. Even Anglicans refute this.

So to grandstand on a heresy that is only accepted by certain sects of believers...thinking you have a prerogative or some kind of back-up (apart from the delusionist) is itself delusional.

particularly within Protestant traditions.

ONLY is some Protestant sects. And this shows the failure of man-made reform systems. Especially from a weird monk like Luther.

This doctrine holds that through faith in Jesus Christ, believers are credited with Christ's righteousness, making them justified before God.

That's not how justification works. It is forbidden to self-justify based on one's reading of the bible..or the works of reformers.

 

[Johann]

Reformist theology you mean. Reformists are in a great minority in the Body of Christ. Catholicism AND Orthodoxy...as well as well informed believers of any kind...refute the concept of imputation of God's righteousness on anyone. It's preposterous. Even Anglicans refute this.

You are beginning to expose yourself--

Romans 3:21-22 (ESV)

"But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction."
Romans 5:17-19 (ESV)

"For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous."
Romans 10:3-4 (ESV)

"For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
1 Corinthians 1:30 (ESV)

"And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption."
Galatians 2:16 (ESV)

"Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."
Galatians 3:6 (ESV)

"Just as Abraham 'believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness'?"
Philippians 3:8-9 (ESV)

"Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith."
2 Peter 1:1 (ESV)

"Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ."
Isaiah 61:10 (ESV)

"I will greatly rejoice in the Lord; my soul shall exult in my God, for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation; he has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself like a priest with a beautiful headdress, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels."
Jeremiah 23:5-6 (ESV)

"Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The Lord is our righteousness.’"

These passages collectively emphasize the concept of righteousness being attributed to believers through faith in Christ, supporting the theological framework of imputation central to Reformed theology.

The doctrine of the imputation of God's righteousness in Christ to believers is indeed a key tenet in Reformed theology, but it is not universally accepted among all Christian traditions. Here is a corrected explanation that accurately reflects the diversity of Christian beliefs on this issue, with supporting Scriptures:

Corrected Explanation
The concept of the imputation of God's righteousness in Christ to believers is a central tenet in Reformed theology, which holds that through faith in Jesus Christ, believers are credited with Christ's righteousness, thus being justified before God. This doctrine is rooted in several key passages of Scripture:

2 Corinthians 5:21 (ESV):

"For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
This verse suggests that believers receive the righteousness of God through Christ.
Romans 4:3-5 (ESV):

"For what does the Scripture say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.' Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness."

Here, Paul uses the example of Abraham to illustrate that righteousness is credited to those who have faith.
Philippians 3:9 (ESV):

"...and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith."

However, it is important to acknowledge that this view is not universally held within the broader Christian tradition. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches, as well as many Anglicans and other Christian groups, emphasize a different understanding of how righteousness and justification are applied to believers.

Catholic and Orthodox Perspectives
Infused Righteousness:

The Catholic and Orthodox traditions typically emphasize the concept of "infused righteousness" rather than imputed righteousness. This means that righteousness is imparted to believers through the sacraments and the ongoing process of sanctification, transforming the believer inwardly rather than being merely credited to their account.
Council of Trent (Catholic View):

The Council of Trent (1545-1563) explicitly rejected the Protestant doctrine of imputation, affirming instead that justification involves both the forgiveness of sins and the sanctification and renewal of the inner man through the voluntary reception of grace and the Holy Spirit.
James 2:24 (ESV):

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

This verse is often cited by Catholic and Orthodox theologians to emphasize that justification is not by faith alone but involves a cooperative process of faith and works.

Hence--
While the imputation of Christ's righteousness is a foundational doctrine in Reformed theology and is supported by various scriptural passages, it is not universally accepted by all Christian traditions.

The Catholic and Orthodox Churches, along with some other Christian denominations, emphasize a different approach to understanding righteousness and justification. Each tradition brings its own interpretation and theological framework to these biblical concepts, reflecting the diversity within the Body of Christ.

You are Catholic, I have picked this up a while ago. And even then your doctrines are wrong.

J.

 

[Johann]

No. Righteousness is about inhering life based on finishing well. A race is about where you finish. Read the law of righteousness in Ez. 18 and 33.

Incorrect on all points--

Corrected Explanation
The doctrine of righteousness and salvation in the New Testament emphasizes faith in Christ rather than merely enduring until the end or achieving a high moral state. Here are key corrections and supporting scriptures:

Righteousness by Faith:

Romans 3:22 (LEB):
"That is, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. For there is no distinction,"
TR: "δικαιοσύνη δὲ θεοῦ διὰ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ εἰς πάντας τοὺς πιστεύοντας· οὐ γάρ ἐστιν διαστολή·"
Morphology: δικαιοσύνη (righteousness) – noun, genitive, singular, feminine; πίστεως (faith) – noun, genitive, singular, feminine; πιστεύοντας (believe) – verb, present active participle, accusative, plural, masculine.
Imputed Righteousness:

2 Corinthians 5:21 (LEB):
"He made the one who did not know sin to be sin on our behalf, in order that we could become the righteousness of God in him."
TR: "Τὸν γὰρ μὴ γνόντα ἁμαρτίαν ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν, ἵνα ἡμεῖς γινώμεθα δικαιοσύνη θεοῦ ἐν αὐτῷ."
Morphology: γινώμεθα (become) – verb, present, middle/passive, subjunctive, 1st person, plural.
Enduring to the End:

Matthew 24:13 (LEB):
"But the one who endures to the end—this person will be saved."
TR: "ὁ δὲ ὑπομείνας εἰς τέλος οὗτος σωθήσεται."
Morphology: ὑπομείνας (endures) – verb, aorist, active participle, nominative, singular, masculine; σωθήσεται (will be saved) – verb, future, passive, indicative, 3rd person, singular.
This passage emphasizes perseverance but should be understood within the broader context of faith and grace.
Repentance and Life:

Ezekiel 18:21-22 (LEB):
"But if the wicked person turns from all his sins that he has done and observes all my statutes and does justice and righteousness, he will surely live; he will not die. All his transgressions that he committed, they will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness that he has done, he will live."
Ezekiel 33:12 (LEB):
"And you, son of man, say to your people that the righteousness of the righteous will not save him in the day of his transgression, and the wickedness of the wicked will not make him stumble on the day he turns from his
wickedness. And the righteous is not able to live by his righteousness on the day when he sins."

Detailed Corrections with Scriptural Support
Righteousness by Faith:

Righteousness in the New Testament is primarily presented as being through faith in Jesus Christ, not through human effort or endurance alone.
Romans 3:22 emphasizes that righteousness is from God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe, indicating that it is a gift of grace rather than a result of human achievement or endurance.
Imputed Righteousness:

2 Corinthians 5:21 states that Christ, who knew no sin, was made to be sin for us so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. This supports the doctrine of imputation where Christ's righteousness is credited to believers.
Enduring to the End:

While Matthew 24:13 underscores the importance of enduring to the end, it should be interpreted in light of the entire biblical narrative, which includes the assurance of salvation through faith and God's sustaining grace.
Repentance and Life:

Ezekiel 18:21-22 and Ezekiel 33:12 emphasize that repentance leads to life, and a righteous life involves turning away from sin and towards God's statutes. These passages highlight that ongoing faithfulness and repentance are vital but should be seen in conjunction with New Testament teachings on grace and faith.
Revised Statement

Righteousness in Christian theology is not solely about enduring or finishing well in a race-like manner. According to the New Testament, righteousness is fundamentally about faith in Jesus Christ and the imputation of His righteousness to believers. This righteousness is a gift from God through faith (Romans 3:22), and believers are justified not by their own works but by the righteousness of Christ credited to them (2 Corinthians 5:21). While enduring to the end (Matthew 24:13) and repentance (Ezekiel 18:21-22, Ezekiel 33:12) are essential aspects of the Christian life, they must be understood within the context of grace and faith. Our role includes living in ongoing repentance and faith, sustained by God's grace and the righteousness imputed to us through Christ.

By correcting YOUR misunderstandings, the statement aligns with the holistic teaching of Scripture, recognizing both the necessity of faith in Christ for imputed righteousness and the importance of perseverance and repentance in the Christian walk.

Back to the drawing board.
J.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Do you find yourself questioning man-inspired doctrines and traditions and the religious certainties associated with these? Are you outgrowing the framework that holds you back from spiritual growth? Join me as we explore what it means to be apostolic in our pursuit of Christ.

Yes, 1) that is why I am a Eastern Christian. But I got to say this is one of those "In the Eye of the Beholder" things because I find a lot of Christians especially various Protestants especially Fundamentalists would say this about the ancient Christian heritage of things like the Church Fathers, ancient Sacramental tradition etc. when I actually know from experience a much better reverse case can be made about their position!


2) I will say that also often applies to Hebrew Roots stuff (noting the Hebrew of your signature). I am not blanketly against Messianic Judaism etc. (I am actually a supporter of a famous Messianic rabbi named Jason Sobel that has been cranking out videos on Youutbe and other platforms). Anyway, I got a Messianic rabbi friend and bump heads a lot with him. There is so much revisionist history going on with that movement, and by that I mean on the order of Arthur Hislop's spurious work, "Two Babylon's" and well I could go on and on this topic (People in the name of fighting heresies, end up recreating ancient ones like Arianism, Modalism, the Judaizer movement etc,)


3) I was a long contributor on the first big "Postmodern Christian" website known as theooze.com in which I first heard that term Deconstruction. That was a very interesting place, went belly up 12 years ago. I recall folks like Bryan Mclaren back in the early 2000s plugging the concept of Deconstruction in his various best selling books. A lot of the stuff on the ooze was really too radical for me and I would argue really too radical for Christianity, topics like Christian Anarchy were very popular. Yet I did very much enjoy my 8.5 years there under the name of Addai (aka Thadeus in Aramaic, a big Church of the East name, since that was my original affiliation).


4) Even though I am way to conservative for most Deconstruction folks, I do see myself as "Post Modern" (which is generally a bad term these days according to even various pundits I sometimes listen to like Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro ). But my use of that term is directly lifted from Larry Wall in his old talk on "Perl the first Postmodern Programming language" in that talk he speaks of Postmodernity as just coming to terms with some of the problems of the Modern age which he terms "the various Cults of "The Isms".

Perl, the first postmodern computer language

Perl, the first postmodern computer language The following is the text of Larry Wall's talk at Linux World on Wednesday, March 3. He explains why Perl is a fitting language for the postmodern era. As a member of the audience...

www.perl.com

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

This makes it sound like the kingdom of God should only be sought for as an after-life

Salvation is for today. We are to be reconciled to God in this life asap. BUT, we are not yet fully redeemed. We are jot rid of our flesh, the world and we do not yet have our eternal bodies. So this we have faith in.

As He IS...so are we in this world.

So you are exactly Christ-like? Lol
We will be like Him and we ARE BEING GRADUALLY TRANSFORMED INTO CHRIST-LIKE BEINGS. I sometimes see glimmers, reflections of Christ-like behavior, but not any one person like Christ fully.

When people only expect to walk in Christ's perfection as an after life...anything can be taught.

You refute His righteousness being imputed, yet you say we put on Christ and walk in His perfection - osn't thatbthe same thing? Sounds like you are contradicting yourself.

Then there is a strong delusion that God sends on those who don't love the truth...that affects entire generations....among those who shrink back from the kind of faith from us that God expects. Can God not do the impossible? Is anything too hard for Him?

The strong delusion that Gid WILL send during the Great Tribulation is to believe the lie of Satan, that the Antichrist ( presenting himself as God), is God and therefore turning away from Christ. It is the great " falling away" that will happen. People who were on the fence about Christ ( whose seed planted in shallow soil), will lose faith - bitntheybwere never really in Christ to begin with.

The truth about we being covered by God's righteousness is that when we walk in the heavenly realm of the Spirit we are walking in His presence and power. The higher walk that is by grace through faith (His grace and His faith) is a walk that is under the Headship of Christ and found IN God Himself

See, you implied being imputed by His righteousness again.
You seem to think that you are on a higher level than any other Christian ... continuously suggesting that we haven't quite reached it yet. We are all on different levels of spiritual maturity, but the Holy Spirit dwells in our Temple and we walk with Him right where we are. Are you walking on golden streets near the throne of God on your imagination? If so, Please describe what you see? WHAT DOES THE THRONE LOOK LIKE? ARE YOU SITTING NEXT TO JESUS? DO YOU SEE ANGLES, THE FATHER? STOP PRETENDING AND GET YOUR FEET ON THE GROUND WHERE EVERYONE ELSE IS.

No..we can PUT ON Christ, the New Man, the whole armour of God, the armour of light...in God's righteousness...but we can't just claim these things because we read a bible.

To put on Christ, is a metaphor for clothing oneself by immitating his attitudes and behaviors, his love.

Getting better at it? Have you ever heard the way the rabbis speak of the Law? Maybe in a few more thousand years they will be able to fulfill it.

Getting better means growing spiritually and behaving more lovingly towards people. No we won't reach perfection until we die and are resurrected.

 

[Episkopos]

Salvation is for today. We are to be reconciled to God in this life asap. BUT, we are not yet fully redeemed. We are jot rid of our flesh, the world and we do not yet have our eternal bodies. So this we have faith in.

Anything future is based on hope not faith. This is a common error that is stubbornly clung to...since without changing hope into faith...a big hole appears....no faith. But to confuse redemption of the body for a spiritual calling and empowerment now is to fully miss the witness of Jesus...and the gospel. The gospel is NOT about getting an eternal body to live in...but being set free from sin and the flesh...things that you (and others) will not agree with. So there's that.

So you are exactly Christ-like? Lol

Only when I abide in Christ...through Christ I can do all things. (That's in the bible). The higher walk is an eternal kingdom walk in heavenly places...to walk exactly as Jesus walked...without sin...in the freedom of His grace and power. That's the gospel.

We will be like Him and we ARE BEING GRADUALLY TRANSFORMED INTO CHRIST-LIKE BEINGS. I sometimes see glimmers, reflections of Christ-like behavior, but not any one person like Christ fully.

That's not how holiness works. As we get older our eyes dim and we might not be as quick to judge and be slower in our reactions...but holiness is something very different. You can always be learning without coming to any knowledge of the truth (That's also in the bible)

You refute His righteousness being imputed, yet you say we put on Christ and walk in His perfection - osn't thatbthe same thing? Sounds like you are contradicting yourself.

No. Imputing means it's something we are doing from ourselves being attributed to us. Like Abraham' faith in God...it was from himself...also then God could justify Him for his (Abraham's) faith.

Do you know the definition of imputed? It means to attribute something (truthfully). That's not the same as a covering. A tent is a covering...but a tent never gets IMPUTED to us...because a tent isn't human.

The strong delusion that Gid WILL send during the Great Tribulation is to believe the lie of Satan, that the Antichrist ( presenting himself as God), is God and therefore turning away from Christ. It is the great " falling away" that will happen. People who were on the fence about Christ ( whose seed planted in shallow soil), will lose faith - bitntheybwere never really in Christ to begin with.

You are looking at the wrong depth. The Great Tribulation is future but the lies of the devil have never stopped. The falling away has already taken place. Very very few even believe in the higher walk of Christ anymore. The devil knows his business. Multitudes in the decoy establishments. Lots of beliefs but little to no faith.

See, you implied being imputed by His righteousness again.

What? Your statement makes no sense. Look up the words you use.

You seem to think that you are on a higher level than any other Christian ... continuously suggesting that we haven't quite reached it yet.

Are you claiming to have reached something? I never claimed to be Jesus. My claim is to know the higher walk, yes...as testified to in the NT. What is shocking is that is seen as ridiculous among religious people...or maybe not.

We are all on different levels of spiritual maturity, but the Holy Spirit dwells in our Temple and we walk with Him right where we are. Are you walking on golden streets near the throne of God on your imagination? If so, Please describe what you see? WHAT DOES THE THRONE LOOK LIKE? ARE YOU SITTING NEXT TO JESUS? DO YOU SEE ANGLES, THE FATHER? STOP PRETENDING AND GET YOUR FEET ON THE GROUND WHERE EVERYONE ELSE IS.

To put on Christ, is a metaphor for clothing oneself by immitating his attitudes and behaviors, his love.

That's not what Paul is talking about. He didn't get stoned and beaten for metaphors. Totally wrong level. Religious beliefs and NT faith are at variance...to put it mildly.

Getting better means growing spiritually and behaving more lovingly towards people. No we won't reach perfection until we die and are resurrected.

Behaving better is a good thing....like becoming more like the Samaritan. But you are still not getting the gospel...

 

[Lizbeth]

You are simply defending delusional thinking here...not believers. I'm a believer in Christ WITHOUT the delusional thinking. So then one can believe in delusion or not...but delusion exists. All delusion requires someone to believe in it. That's what beliefs do. Faith in Christ is something very different.


Reformist theology you mean. Reformists are in a great minority in the Body of Christ. Catholicism AND Orthodoxy...as well as well informed believers of any kind...refute the concept of imputation of God's righteousness on anyone. It's preposterous. Even Anglicans refute this.

So to grandstand on a heresy that is only accepted by certain sect of believers...thinking you have a prerogative or some kind of back-up (apart from the delusionist) is itself delusional.


ONLY is some Protestant sects. And this shows the failure of man-made reform systems. Especially from a weird monk like Luther.


That's not how justification works. It is forbidden to self-justify based on one's reading of the bible..or the works of reformers.

The gospel is not a delusion. To call those basic but vital foundational tenets of the faith (the cornerstone no less!) the strong delusion is heresy.

"Reformist theology"...."the failure of man-made reform systems"......oh you mean that theology and 'system' that actually freed souls from captivity to the pagan Roman so-called church and began to lead people to CHRIST again? Though I agree the early reformers weren't perfect by any means from what I gather, but thankfully by the grace of God had cottoned on to some vital life-giving truths....it at least opened the door to salvation that the Roman church had shut.

Justification is by the blood of Jesus through FAITH. But faith also needs to have works, ie, fruit.

As I pointed out before, scripture says we were born in "Zion" Epi....born again...translated into the kingdom of heaven when we came to FAITH, which is more than mere mental assent. The kingdom that is above is our mother. It passes understanding that we were translated to a "place" that also requires us to endeavour to get there. What do you say to that....or will you keep ignoring it.

You have much to criticize about "protestantism".....curious to know if you also go to Catholic sites and discuss with them the problems with their system and beliefs?

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, 1) that is why I am a Eastern Christian. But I got to say this is one of those "In the Eye of the Beholder" things because I find a lot of Christians especially various Protestants especially Fundamentalists would say this about the ancient Christian heritage of things like the Church Fathers, ancient Sacramental tradition etc. when I actually know from experience a much better reverse case can be made about their position!

Welcome to the discussion! :) So as Eastern Orthodox you don't believe that God is blinded to your sin because He can't see you...only Jesus?

2) I will say that also often applies to Hebrew Roots stuff (noting the Hebrew of your signature). I am not blanketly against Messianic Judaism etc. (I am actually a supporter of a famous Messianic rabbi named Jason Sobel that has been cranking out videos on Youutbe and other platforms). Anyway, I got a Messianic rabbi friend and bump heads a lot with him. There is so much revisionist history going on with that movement, and by that I mean on the order of Arthur Hislop's spurious work, "Two Babylon's" and well I could go on and on this topic (People in the name of fighting heresies, end up recreating ancient ones like Arianism, Modalism, the Judaizer movement etc,)

Not into the Hebrew roots movement at all. Just into the word of God that just happens to be written in Hebrew.

3) I was a long contributor on the first big "Postmodern Christian" website known as theooze.com in which I first heard that term Deconstruction. That was a very interesting place, went belly up 12 years ago. I recall folks like Bryan Mclaren back in the early 2000s plugging the concept of Deconstruction in his various best selling books. A lot of the stuff on the ooze was really too radical for me and I would argue really too radical for Christianity, topics like Christian Anarchy were very popular. Yet I did very much enjoy my 8.5 years there under the name of Addai (aka Thadeus in Aramaic, a big Church of the East name, since that was my original affiliation).

Christian anarchists like Jacques Ellul or Tolstoy?

4) Even though I am way to conservative for most Deconstruction folks, I do see myself as "Post Modern" (which is generally a bad term these days according to even various pundits I sometimes listen to like Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro ). But my use of that term is directly lifted from Larry Wall in his old talk on "Perl the first Postmodern Programming language" in that talk he speaks of Postmodernity as just coming to terms with some of the problems of the Modern age which he terms "the various Cults of "The Isms".

Perl, the first postmodern computer language

Perl, the first postmodern computer language The following is the text of Larry Wall's talk at Linux World on Wednesday, March 3. He explains why Perl is a fitting language for the postmodern era. As a member of the audience...

www.perl.com

I call this post-gospel. :) But Jordan Peterson has some merit in my view.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes, 1) that is why I am a Eastern Christian. But I got to say this is one of those "In the Eye of the Beholder" things because I find a lot of Christians especially various Protestants especially Fundamentalists would say this about the ancient Christian heritage of things like the Church Fathers, ancient Sacramental tradition etc. when I actually know from experience a much better reverse case can be made about their position!

Greetings to you. I don't know much about Eastern Orthodoxy.....may I ask what do you think of the doctrine of needing to be born again (born of the spirit) which Jesus spoke about...? Is that preached in the Eastern Orthodox church......or do you believe that you are saved by being baptized into your church as an infant like in Roman Catholicism?

 

[Behold]

Or...believing things ABOUT Jesus

"believing about".....Is historical head knowledge, that is no different than learning about Zeus or Tiger Woods or Mary Poppins or Justin Trudeau.

Believing INTO Jesus

"believing into Jesus"......Would be God accepting the Believer's faith in Christ to then....... forgiven all their sin (based on Christ's Sacrifice on the Cross)....... and then once forgiven God gives the believer, the "new Birth".

. The omnipresence of God means we can do that while still in these mortal bodies.

Bizarre. Bizarre. Bizarre, theology.

What you are trying to say is that because all the born again exist 'in Christ" and "One with God".......this does not change the fact that becoming the "Temple of the Holy Spirit", is both IN the KOG and also inside our mortal bodies that are "dead because of sin" and heading to the grave, or to the cremation, or into the Rapture of the Church.

whereby we mirror God's divine nature and will.

Right there..... and again........ is your self effort (Legalism) trying to DO Christianity, vs, ... "I can do all things Through Christ", which is God doing them through the Believer.

So, your theology always substitutes YOUR DOING and YOUR SELF EFFORT, In place of real Christianity, which is God's power to live His life through the : CHRISTian.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Anything future is based on hope not faith. This is a common error that is stubbornly clung to...since without changing hope into faith..

There it is, you don't even know what faith is.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Only when I abide in Christ...through Christ I can do all things. (That's in the bible). The higher walk is an eternal kingdom walk in heavenly places.

Oh, so you admit not to abide in Christ sometimes and so I guess you get off your high horse and come down to the lower walk with the rest of us. Good, a sign of some humilty.

Do you know the definition of imputed? It means to attribute something (truthfully). That's not the same as a covering. A tent is a covering...but a tent never gets IMPUTED to us...because a tent isn't human.

Adam's guilt was attributed or credited to us as Jesus sacrificial death is credited to us. His act of righteousness is credited to us through faith. This washing of sins is not a covering of sins as in the Old Testament - it is a deletion.

My claim is to know the higher walk,

Well there our only two paths I know of, with Christ or without Him. I am in Christ and He has baptized me with the Holy Spirit. I am certainly elevated when in communion with the Holy Spirit, my Comforter, my Helper, Who guides me and leads me to all truth. That is as High as I have been.

But you are not getting the gospel...

Got it 33 years ago, that Jesus died for our sins, was buried and rose from the dead on the third day according to the scriptures. ( 1 Cor. 15:3-4) That is the Good News, that we do not have to die for our sins. And also that He promises eternal life.

 

[Episkopos]

There it is, you don't even know what faith is.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

LOL...I don't think you are seeing that faith is in the present tense. It's faith IS not faith will be. And the fact that we receive NOW what we once hoped for (past tense.) In your reading the hoped for is future tense...but it is past tense. Once you have faith you don't need to hope for what you have now received...hoped for in the past.

Oh, so you admit not to abide on Christ sometimes and so I guess you get off your high horse and come down to the lower walk with the rest of us. Good,a sign of some humilty.

I think God wants me in the lower walk ....I think I'm more useful to Him to tell my fellow farm team players about the major leagues....even though so few believe there is anything higher than what they have already experienced. Yes a little humility would be good from these.

Adam's guilt was attributed or credited to us as Jesus sacrificial death is credited to us.

That's not true. The power of sin was not only attributed to us...we inherited it. It's not like we have to admit we are sinners when we are not. Your whole scheme is based on unreality.

Adam put mankind in the bondage of sin. Jesus came to liberate us from that bondage to restore the holy walk that Adam had squandered due to disobedience.

His act of righteousness is credited to us through faith.

False again. We are only as righteous as we DO. Walking in God's grace makes us walk as Jesus walked...hence it doesn't take an active religious imagination to claim that God's righteousness is covering us. The world sees it. That's our witness to the risen Lord.

This wishing od sins is not a covering of sins as in the Old Testament - it is a deletion.

Incoherent.

Well there our only two paths I know of, with Christ or without Him. I am in Christ and He has baptized me with the Holy Spirit. I am certainly elevated when in communion with the Holy Spirit, my Comforter, my Helper, Who guides me and leads me to all truth. That is as High as I have been.

Got it 33 years ago, that Jesus died for our sins, was buried and rose from the dead on the third day according to the scriptures. ( 1 Cor. 15:3-4) That is the Good News, that we do not have to die for our sins. And also that He promises eternal life.

Again with the after-life. The gospel is NOT about an after life...but an eternal life right now. Afterward we are ALL ONLY judged by what we have done in the body....no faith or beliefs work then. Read the bible.