Defending the Trinity

[Purity]

It is the flesh that became, not God's Word. Jesus is eternal. Can you deny that God's Word preexisted the incarnation?

But you cannot prove Jesus pre-existed that's your problem / dilemma.

Angels, prophets and Christ have been vehicles by which God has expressed his logos. YOU MUST ACCEPT THAT AS TRUTH!

Christ is the complete manifestation of the logos - "in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." (Col. 2:9). It was the "logos" which was in the beginning with God, not Christ. When the "word was made flesh" (John 1:14) then, and then only, Christ became the "Word". Christ is called the Word (Rev. 19:13 cf. 1 John 1:1; Luke 1:2) since his doctrine and words came from his Father (John 7:16; 17:14). He was the logos lived out in speech and action, not merely written on scrolls.

Wormwood could not understand God manifestation the question is can you?

The issue in the discussion goes back to the ECF's who formulated this doctrine - they expected people like you to swallow their philosophical definitions "without question" and oddly this is what you are now doing to me ;) you want me to say "yeah I accept it because justaname said so"

What will happen when you find out you believed in lies? and so entrenched had those lies become that God had become to you a god.

Wormwood said in this discussion numerous times the entire Christian hope is based on the trinity...without it we have nothing.

What will happen when you are left with an empty faith to a god who does not exist?

A great sense of betrayal then uncontrollable weeping as you realise your whole life was dedicated to a lie.

This is the sadness I would rather not witness in the coming age.

 

[justaname]

But you cannot prove Jesus pre-existed that's your problem / dilemma.

Angels, prophets and Christ have been vehicles by which God has expressed his logos. YOU MUST ACCEPT THAT AS TRUTH!

Christ is the complete manifestation of the logos - "in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." (Col. 2:9). It was the "logos" which was in the beginning with God, not Christ. When the "word was made flesh" (John 1:14) then, and then only, Christ became the "Word". Christ is called the Word (Rev. 19:13 cf. 1 John 1:1; Luke 1:2) since his doctrine and words came from his Father (John 7:16; 17:14). He was the logos lived out in speech and action, not merely written on scrolls.

Wormwood could not understand God manifestation the question is can you?

1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

Man will not live on bread alone...
Christ did not become the Word, Christ is eternal. The Lamb was slain before the foundations of the world.


32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?
35 “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
37 “If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”

 

[Purity]

1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

Man will not live on bread alone...
Christ did not become the Word, Christ is eternal. The Lamb was slain before the foundations of the world.

Yes, this is exactly what I mean!

Christ was not literally a rock as you would have us believe - he was symbolically here represented (predestined) to be a greater rock in type from which all men would drink.

See what you are doing to the Scriptures? Who taught you to treat them in this manner?

But your understanding has been darkened by the theologians who failed to teach you how Christ become the rock.

Answer: Compare John 19:34 with Exo 17:7

Christ could not have become the Spirit giving rock without John 19:34 - impossible!

In fact, God could not have purged our sins (Heb 1:3;9:22) without John 19:34!

Can you see?

 

[justaname]

Yes, this is exactly what I mean!

Christ was not literally a rock as you would have us believe - he was symbolically here represented (predestined) to be a greater rock in type from which all men would drink.

See what you are doing to the Scriptures? Who taught you to treat them in this manner?

But your understanding has been darkened by the theologians who failed to teach you how Christ become the rock.

Answer: Compare John 19:34 with Exo 17:7

Can you see?

Are you saying I believe a literal rock was tumbling after those who passed under the cloud? I can see your difficulties discerning the scriptures...

Christ is the spiritual drink, the living water...and He followed them. Your worldview will not allow you to discern the truth. Christ pre-existed the world.

To look into the scriptures a little further...
36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

13 “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

The Son of Man descended from heaven, being sent by the Father...Christ is the Son of Man...This you cannot deny. How can you be sent or descend if you do not exist?

 

[Purity]

Are you saying I believe a literal rock was tumbling after those who passed under the cloud? I can see your difficulties discerning the scriptures...

Christ is the spiritual drink, the living water...and He followed them. Your worldview will not allow you to discern the truth. Christ pre-existed the world.

Ok so who did go before the people in the wilderness?

Exo 14:19[SIZE=80%] [/SIZE]The angel of God (Yahweh name bearing angel) , who was going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them, and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them.

In time you will grow weary justaname because you lack Scripture to support your faith.

The Angel of God followed them - please quote Scripture correctly justaname else you fall into error.

So far you have incorrectly stated:

1. Christ was not the literal Word of God he became the Word of God John 1:14 Word made Flesh
2. Christ was not a literal rock - he became a life giving rock at John 19:34
3. Christ did not go behind to protect Israel this was an Angel of God Exod 14:19

Purity

 

[justaname]

Ok so who did go before the people in the wilderness?

Exo 14:19[SIZE=80%] [/SIZE]The angel of God (Yahweh name bearing angel) , who was going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them, and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them.

In time you will grow weary justaname because you lack Scripture to support your faith.

You are attempting to distract me by changing the subject... I presented scripture that clearly states the Christ pre-existed...and even added to my cause.

Lets stay on topic here. Look at the quote...it is speaking of the baptism into Moses...

You are building a straw man...

 

[Purity]

You are attempting to distract me by changing the subject... I presented scripture that clearly states the Christ pre-existed...and even added to my cause.

Lets stay on topic here.

Your fuddled now because these three points which stand against you cannot be overcome with Scripture, they are truth - you need to go off to hearsay to defend your faith.

Each three points are confirmation Jesus did not pre-exist; to understand them you need to know God manifestation and God predestination, both of which are lost on you for Trinitarian (non biblical concepts) ideas.

The greatest gems of Scripture cannot be known to you for dogmas cloud your eyes and ears.

Sad!

 

[justaname]

Your fuddled now because these three points which stand against you cannot be overcome with Scripture, they are truth - you need to go off to hearsay to defend your faith.

Each three points are confirmation Jesus did not pre-exist; to understand them you need to know God manifestation and God predestination, both of which are lost on you for Trinitarian (non biblical concepts) ideas.

The greatest gems of Scripture cannot be known to you for dogmas cloud your eyes and ears.

Sad!

A continuation of your straw man...

I will pray for you.

Why do you avoid my questions?

I can answer yours...
The Captain of the Host is the Christ. He who was/is/and will always be. Yeshua...

God is not only transcendent He is also imminent.

Your point is made void with scripture...
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

You say Christ did not follow them, yet scripture does...I think scripture is the authority not you...

 

[Purity]

Lets stay on topic here. Look at the quote...it is speaking of the baptism into Moses...

The passage you infer in 1 Cor 10:2 is also spoken of in Numbers 15:41

"I am Yahweh your God which brought you out of Egypt to be your God"

This statement jusaname defines the purpose of Yahweh in calling Israel out of Egypt. It was that He might "be their God" (not God's). It was not merely to save them, but to make them worth saving. Men were not ushered into being for the purpose of being saved or lost! God manifestation not human salvation was the great purpose of the Eternal Spirit. The salvation of the multitude is incidental to the manifestation, but was not the end proposed. The Eternal Spirit intended to enthrone Himself on the earth, and in so doing to develop a divine family from among men, every one of whom shall be Spirit, because born of the Spirit, and that this family shall be large enough to fill the earth, when perfected, to the entire exclusion of flesh and blood."

The doctrine of God manifestation is taught in the verse before us, by Yahweh . stating His purpose in calling Israel out of Egypt. It was that "He might be their God." This required that they glorify Him in word and deed (see Deut 4:5-7; 28:58 : Jer 13:11 Isa 43:7). However, because that generation failed to fulfil Yahweh's purpose, it was destroyed in the wilderness, so that of the approximately 2,000,000 who were baptised as adults into Moses ( 1 Cor 10:1 ), only two entered the Land of Promise.

It is very relevant to bear in mind that the call of the Gospel today is on the same basis: to take out of the Gentiles "a people for His name" (Acts 15:14) , a people separated for the purpose of God manifestation.

People for His name = God manifestation!!!!!

"I am Yahweh your God" - This repetition of the Memorial Name should have reminded Israel of the time, purpose and significance of Yahweh's call to them through Moses as proclaimed at the burning bush, by the revelation of the Name (see Exo 3:13-15).

Also see

Numbers 33:8
"And they departed from before Pihahiroth, and passed through the midst of the sea into the wilderness" - See Exo 14:22. They were "baptised into Moses" 1 Cor 10:1-3

Baptised into Moses NOT Jesus Christ ;)

I am sure Nothead will enjoy these notes as he understands God manifestation - Trinitarians cannot.

 

[justaname]

The passage you infer in 1 Cor 10:2 is also spoken of in Numbers 15:41

"I am Yahweh your God which brought you out of Egypt to be your God"

This statement jusaname defines the purpose of Yahweh in calling Israel out of Egypt. It was that He might "be their God" (not God's). It was not merely to save them, but to make them worth saving. Men were not ushered into being for the purpose of being saved or lost! God manifestation not human salvation was the great purpose of the Eternal Spirit. The salvation of the multitude is incidental to the manifestation, but was not the end proposed. The Eternal Spirit intended to enthrone Himself on the earth, and in so doing to develop a divine family from among men, every one of whom shall be Spirit, because born of the Spirit, and that this family shall be large enough to fill the earth, when perfected, to the entire exclusion of flesh and blood."

The doctrine of God manifestation is taught in the verse before us, by Yahweh . stating His purpose in calling Israel out of Egypt. It was that "He might be their God." This required that they glorify Him in word and deed (see Deut 4:5-7; 28:58 : Jer 13:11 Isa 43:7). However, because that generation failed to fulfil Yahweh's purpose, it was destroyed in the wilderness, so that of the approximately 2,000,000 who were baptised as adults into Moses ( 1 Cor 10:1 ), only two entered the Land of Promise.

It is very relevant to bear in mind that the call of the Gospel today is on the same basis: to take out of the Gentiles "a people for His name" (Acts 15:14) , a people separated for the purpose of God manifestation.

People for His name = God manifestation!!!!!

"I am Yahweh your God" - This repetition of the Memorial Name should have reminded Israel of the time, purpose and significance of Yahweh's call to them through Moses as proclaimed at the burning bush, by the revelation of the Name (see Exo 3:13-15).

Also see

Numbers 33:8
"And they departed from before Pihahiroth, and passed through the midst of the sea into the wilderness" - See Exo 14:22. They were "baptised into Moses" 1 Cor 10:1-3

Baptised into Moses NOT Jesus Christ ;)

I am sure Nothead will enjoy these notes as he understands God manifestation - Trinitarians cannot.

Yet my point is the Christ pre-existed...
Your point here is completely off topic and avoiding the truth presented to you...

another scripture directly from the Christ speaking of His preexistence...

56 “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

 

[Purity]

Yet my point is the Christ pre-existed...
Your point here is completely off topic and avoiding the truth presented to you...

Its not off topic, its simply you cannot understand God manifestation - like I said, its beyond you to the point you are not even trying to apply your mind to the Scriptures - you have Christ in the wilderness being the rock and spiritual waters, but they are baptised into Moses?

The three points still stand against you in that you misquote Scriptures to suit your own Trinitarian dogmas. You cannot understand 1 Cor 10:1-3 because your foundation in Gen - Deut is in error.

Your frustrated because you cannot show us Christ in the Wilderness - we have a Angel correct - we have Yahweh - yes correct - but no Jesus.

4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

The spiritual intent here by Paul you are clearly not grasping.

The same Spirit which led and watered Israel is the same Spirit which is now in Christ Jesus...in other words don't make the same mistakes as those unbelieving Israelites in the wilderness who though baptised in MOSES failed because of unbelief.

Not hard - but clearly so for you ;(

 

[justaname]

Its not off topic, its simply you cannot understand God manifestation - like I said, its beyond you to the point you are not even trying to apply your mind to the Scriptures - you have Christ in the wilderness being the rock and spiritual waters, but they are baptised into Moses?

The three points still stand against you in that you misquote Scriptures to suit your own Trinitarian dogmas. You cannot understand 1 Cor 10:1-3 because your foundation in Gen - Deut is in error.

Your frustrated because you cannot show us Christ in the Wilderness - we have a Angel correct - we have Yahweh - yes correct - but no Jesus.

Now you deny all the evidence I have shown you...just as you deny the Christ, and the scriptures, and the prophets...

Again this is scripture...
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

Question #1
Simple questions here...was Christ the spiritual rock that followed?

Question #2
Was the Son of Man sent by the Father?

Question #3
Did the Son of Man descend?

Question #4
Is Jesus the Christ and the Son of Man?

Question#5
Can anyone be sent or descend without existing?

The Word was God...

 

[Purity]

Now you deny all the evidence I have shown you...just as you deny the Christ, and the scriptures, and the prophets...

Again this is scripture...
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

Question #1
Simple questions here...was Christ the spiritual rock that followed?

Yes, both the Israelites and the Brothers and Sisters at Corinth were drinking from the same Spiritual Rock - (God Words) Chrit himself drank of it also John 17:14 ;)

The Promised Son and his sacrifice would ratify all the spiritual types and antitypes including all the sacrifices under the Law. Romans 8:29

He was a promised Son in whom would be hid (placed) all the spiritual riches from God his Father.

Though Israel was baptised in Moses, God is His foreknowledge could, on account of the promised Son and his sacrifice ratify their faith and belief in His Holy Covenant - all things were reconciled in the Son.

Christ lives because he died - he did not pre-exist.

Question #2
Was the Son of Man sent by the Father?

Yes via the Holy Spirit born of a woman in the fallen and condemn line of Abraham and David without whom he could not have life.

Rom 1:1-3 Matt 1:1 etc etc.

Question #3
Did the Son of Man descend?

Yes in the form of Logos and Holy Spirit descending upon Mary to cause conception - notice the word shall be (future tense) in both Luke 1 records and Isaiah's prophecies.

"He shall be great" (Luke 1:32)
"He was raised up out of the bowels of David 2 Sam 7:12
"Son of Man" as he represented mans sinful nature which he bore. Heb 2:7

Question #4
Is Jesus the Christ and the Son of Man?

Yes - he is the promised suffering servant who gave his life that all who manifest God like he did will have life Gal 5:24

Question#5
Can anyone be sent or descend without existing?

God can send anyone he pleases and raise up a prophet in the midst of his people at any stage throughout history. Jeremiah did not pre-exist but God Jer 1:5.

Jesus was unique and a Son in that His Father was God and his Mary was a sinner.

The Word was God...

....And it became flesh a dwelt amongst us because God (Yahweh) filled him with Grace and Truth Psalm 45:2

I know the One who pour grace into his lips and you are yet to discover the God of Israel the God of Jesus Christ

2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Repent and hear justname the truth concerning the Lord Jesus Christ
Purity

 

[Floyd]

John 5:18-24
18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.
21 “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.
22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

I am inclined at this time to show another discourse that shows the Divinity of Christ...

What is so difficult for me to understand is the inability for some spiritually blinded people to see what the Jews of Jesus' day easily saw. In antiquity to be the Son of God is to be divine or as the scripture says "equal with God"... The Son is in complete unison with the Father...The Son gives life...The Son Judges and is honored as the Father is honored...He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father

This is not a metaphor, it is a truth. Jesus is not born of man and woman rather God and woman. The divinity of Christ cannot be escaped, it can only be suppressed. Yet suppression cannot change the truth of the matter, it only deceives the suppressor.

Regarding the Shemah, it is not in conflict with the nature of the triune God. I and the Father are One.

In the garden it was God's Word that was questioned by the serpent, enabling deception to take captive the woman. In response to the woman's captivity, Adam was taken hold by sin. As a divine decree it is God's Word that frees Adam (man) from sin. Deny the divine authority of the Word of God and stay captive to the serpent. God is His Word and it goes out and will not return void. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God. Who can separate God from His Word? The serpent tried and his head is crushed. Shall we continue in the false teachings of the serpent and receive a like end, or shall we repent?

justaname: if you have followed the Thread on "Defending the Trinity"; over a number of weeks; you will see that nohead and purity have resisted every single explanation given to them in goodwill!
Purity (perhaps I should say im-purity, such is the heresy) would not even study the last attempt given him.
It is now concluded by some here, that they are JWs. as both refused to give their affiliations; which as you know make all discussion impossible.
I predict that no matter what "evidence" you give them, they will refute; and in the worst case, will refuse to study the material!
All this, and at the same time refusing to explain what they mean; from their own materials, which often is unrelated; they will not concede any area of their heresy!
They are quite well versed in "Christian" history; and will make play with some Greek/Hebrew phrases; which have been ably countered by Wormwood; but still to no avail!
I felt you needed to know this brief history in your clashes with these two.
Regards;
Floyd.

 

[Purity]

justaname: if you have followed the Thread on "Defending the Trinity"; over a number of weeks; you will see that nohead and purity have resisted every single explanation given to them in goodwill!

I agree, though replace the word resisted with refuted. :)

You also missed how wormwood grew tired of hearing truth and bowed out (his words) - his misuse of Phil 2 was exposed and while he tried to change his Christology on the run it came unstuck.

Context has been against all contenders except those who understand and apply the Shema ;)

Gal 6:14

 

[Floyd]

I agree, though replace the word resisted with refuted. :)

You also missed how wormwood grew tired of hearing truth and bowed out (his words) - his misuse of Phil 2 was exposed and while he tried to change his Christology on the run it came unstuck.

Context has been against all contenders except those who understand and apply the Shema ;)

Gal 6:14

Your interpretation; as usual inaccurate!

 

[Purity]

How does the Shema in 1 Cor 8:6 sit with you all? Considering Paul is writing to Gentiles?

By its inclusion the believers must have understood its import? What has happened over the past 2000 years?

Jewish monotheism is Pauls main doctrinal framework in addressing the question of whether it is permissible to eat food that has been offered to idols. The Shema is alluded to as early as verse 1 Cor 8:3 where ‘loving God’ is emphasised.

The issue here for all Trinitarian's is the bifurcation with the word Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I hear you ask "Why is it an issue for a Trinitarian?"

Well, it brings Jesus into the sphere of Gods creative work something which Trinitarians are not happy to discuss - Jesus a created being - Ah the sky is falling!

Purity

 

[Floyd]

How does the Shema in 1 Cor 8:6 sit with you all? Considering Paul is writing to Gentiles?

By its inclusion the believers must have understood its import? What has happened over the past 2000 years?

Jewish monotheism is Pauls main doctrinal framework in addressing the question of whether it is permissible to eat food that has been offered to idols. The Shema is alluded to as early as verse 1 Cor 8:3 where ‘loving God’ is emphasised.

The issue here for all Trinitarian's is the bifurcation with the word Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I hear you ask "Why is it an issue for a Trinitarian?"

Well, it brings Jesus into the sphere of Gods creative work something which Trinitarians are not happy to discuss - Jesus a created being - Ah the sky is falling!

Purity

Dr. Christian David Ginsberg, of Massorah fame ( Dr. David Ginsburg: (Hebrew scholar, Jewish academic, Jewish language scholar for the British Library, and Museum.)
Dr E.W. Bullinger: ( Dr. E. W. Bullinger (Hebrew and Greek scholar,)

"Elohim means creator; Elohim is God the Son, the living "Word" with creature form to create, ( Jhn.1:1; Col.1:15-17; Rev.3:14; ) later with human form to redeem (Jhn.1:14) "begotten of the Father before all worlds (Heb.1:2-3); born of His mother in the world.. In this creature form He appeared to the Patriarchs".
Floyd.

 

[Purity]

Floyd, please do not include my posts if you are not willing to speak to them.
Its toxic posting.

Dr. Christian David Ginsberg, of Massorah fame ( Dr. David Ginsburg: (Hebrew scholar, Jewish academic, Jewish language scholar for the British Library, and Museum.)
Dr E.W. Bullinger: ( Dr. E. W. Bullinger (Hebrew and Greek scholar,)

"Elohim means creator; Elohim is God the Son, the living "Word" with creature form to create, ( Jhn.1:1; Col.1:15-17; Rev.3:14; ) later with human form to redeem (Jhn.1:14) "begotten of the Father before all worlds (Heb.1:2-3); born of His mother in the world.. In this creature form He appeared to the Patriarchs".
Floyd.

 

[Floyd]

Floyd, please do not include my posts if you are not willing to speak to them.
Its toxic posting.

That is exactly how the Enemy (Satan) speaks and works; by reversing the very points he is guilty of!

It is "speaking" to your post; interestingly, you do not answer the points made by these eminent men?

But a JW does not use the same documents!

Floyd.