Defending the Trinity

[nothead]

You're funny. Does this protesting blood include those who wrote monogenes Theos? Oops. Better not go there. Still might be a little sensitive.

Still think Jesus was a trinitarian, are ye....tsk tsk.

That is funny, but many are there who do, ye have great company, of well intentioned but FUNNY allies...

Oh who was it who said, "This is eternal life, that they know THEE the Only True God, and Jesus Christ (ME) whom THOU hast sent."

Me, thou terminology. Git grammar, git real. Git the true terp and repent. There AIN'T NO WAY you can get around this one, sir. Red letter, although John wrote it.
Abrahamic monotheistic, although John had to remember it. As John was and is in heaven, knowing the One True God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

As Jesus is, sitting at the subservient yet unprecedently honored right hand of God. Remember, God said no elohim can stand or be next to HIS FACE.

Yet Jesus is. So how is this, was God lying? No, God cannot lie for He AIN'T a man that can lie. Jesus can lie but he never did. See the diff?

The reconciliation is to know Jesus is actually subordinate to his God. Not complicated. Not unbiblical. Who MADE him equal anyhow? We are back to my quote from R.C. Hanson, and it AIN'T a subordination of office or role or sundry designation:

According to R.P.C. Hanson, "with the exception of Athanasius, virtually every theologian, East and West, accepted some form of subordianationism at least up to the year 355; subordinationism might indeed, until the denouement of the controversy, have been described as accepted orthodoxy."

Subordinationism, wiki

When you realize your vaunted fathers in the faith were ABSOLUTE Subordinationists, you will change your tune and start singing the girly high notes of....nevermind.

 

[justaname]

Need we go back to scripture again?

The Word was God...The Word became flesh...Jesus is the Word.

Jesus is worshipped....who but God deserves worship?

6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

And further in the same chapter God says...

8 But of the Son He says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.
9 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”

God speaks of another God? Or is it that God is echad? Jesus agrees that God is unified...I and the Father are One. Genesis accounts for the unity of God...Let Us make man in Our image, in Our likeness...the Shema agrees God is unified.

Still further down the chapter...


10 And,
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they all will become old like a garment,
12 And like a mantle You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will also be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.”


Jesus is the creator of the heavens and earth, God is the creator.

Everyone agrees that God is the Judge right?

22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.


Jesus is our Mighty God, Eternal Father.

 

[nothead]

Need we go back to scripture again?

The Word was God...The Word became flesh...Jesus is the Word.

The Word "Jesus" became manifest. See the diff? John was saying the same DABAR which said "light" said "Jesus." In the Beginning.

Jesus is worshipped....who but God deserves worship?

Ultimately no one. ULTIMATE WORSHIP. But as we know the kings of Davidic lineage were all worshiped from the first one, Saul.

6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

And further in the same chapter God says...

8 But of the Son He says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.
9 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”

God speaks of another God? Or is it that God is echad? Jesus agrees that God is unified...I and the Father are One. Genesis accounts for the unity of God...Let Us make man in Our image, in Our likeness...the Shema agrees God is unified.

Equivocation. God does NOT speak of another God. NEVER. This would naturally make two Gods. GOD annointed him? Then by Jew-terp he must NOT BE God.

The God the throne. The God-established throne, said to a KING who is a man FIRST. Another possibility: Oh elohim...therefore elohim, YOUR elohim has annointed you...

See, the Elohim Theology can possibly explain this. Or that the throne is God-established. But what YOU cannot explain is how these passages first applied to a king of the Hebrews who was a man.

Still further down the chapter...


10 And,
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they all will become old like a garment,
12 And like a mantle You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will also be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.”


Jesus is the creator of the heavens and earth, God is the creator.

Speaking to YHWH Elohim here, not Jesus.

Everyone agrees that God is the Judge right?

22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.


Jesus is our Mighty God, Eternal Father.

"Eternal Father" was never said of Jesus, sir. Nice inference, if I may turn aside discreetly...and puke. The Christ is the mediator between God and man. This means he has the authority of mediation and propitiation. This does not make him God. He never said he was God.

He never said he was God.

 

[shturt678]

Still think Jesus was a trinitarian, are ye....tsk tsk.

That is funny, but many are there who do, ye have great company, of well intentioned but FUNNY allies...

Oh who was it who said, "This is eternal life, that they know THEE the Only True God, and Jesus Christ (ME) whom THOU hast sent."

Me, thou terminology. Git grammar, git real. Git the true terp and repent. There AIN'T NO WAY you can get around this one, sir. Red letter, although John wrote it.
Abrahamic monotheistic, although John had to remember it. As John was and is in heaven, knowing the One True God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

As Jesus is, sitting at the subservient yet unprecedently honored right hand of God. Remember, God said no elohim can stand or be next to HIS FACE.

Yet Jesus is. So how is this, was God lying? No, God cannot lie for He AIN'T a man that can lie. Jesus can lie but he never did. See the diff?

The reconciliation is to know Jesus is actually subordinate to his God. Not complicated. Not unbiblical. Who MADE him equal anyhow? We are back to my quote from R.C. Hanson, and it AIN'T a subordination of office or role or sundry designation:

According to R.P.C. Hanson, "with the exception of Athanasius, virtually every theologian, East and West, accepted some form of subordianationism at least up to the year 355; subordinationism might indeed, until the denouement of the controversy, have been described as accepted orthodoxy."

Subordinationism, wiki

When you realize your vaunted fathers in the faith were ABSOLUTE Subordinationists, you will change your tune and start singing the girly high notes of....nevermind.

Thank you again for caring and Jn.17:3!

Jn.17:3: Jesus, indeed, states the personal relation of the believer to the true God AND TO JESUS, but he does more: states the definite personal summary by which "faith" in the true God AND IN JESUS is confessed.

Old agaping Jn.17:3, subordinate, Jack

 

[nothead]

Thank you again for caring and Jn.17:3!

Jn.17:3: Jesus, indeed, states the personal relation of the believer to the true God AND TO JESUS, but he does more: states the definite personal summary by which "faith" in the true God AND IN JESUS is confessed.

Old agaping Jn.17:3, subordinate, Jack

Buhhht. You do see he said God the Father is the ONLY True God, meaning the same meaning throughout Torah, that NO OTHER stands equal to HIM SINGULAR.

THIS is what no man can get around, including you, sir. Even if you ARE good lookin' and have all your teeth.

 

[Purity]

Need we go back to scripture again?

The Word was God...The Word became flesh...Jesus is the Word.

Jesus is worshipped....who but God deserves worship?

6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

And further in the same chapter God says...

8 But of the Son He says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.
9 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”

God speaks of another God? Or is it that God is echad? Jesus agrees that God is unified...I and the Father are One. Genesis accounts for the unity of God...Let Us make man in Our image, in Our likeness...the Shema agrees God is unified.

Still further down the chapter...


10 And,
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they all will become old like a garment,
12 And like a mantle You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will also be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.”


Jesus is the creator of the heavens and earth, God is the creator.

Everyone agrees that God is the Judge right?

22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.


Jesus is our Mighty God, Eternal Father.

Justaname

Rather than simply quoting Scripture explain the context of the passage and how it relates to your beliefs. This way you will convey understanding. Or simply state what you believe and show from the text how it supports your belief.
Purity

Buhhht. You do see he said God the Father is the ONLY True God, meaning the same meaning throughout Torah, that NO OTHER stands equal to HIM SINGULAR.

THIS is what no man can get around, including you, sir. Even if you ARE good lookin' and have all your teeth.

Love your spirit Nothead and enjoying 678's humility - God bless you both !

Say you ain't Mattathias on another forum is you? There are strong resemblances here. He has too a great patience and equininity. Equanininy. Equanimity.

And a pure dee scintillating head for theology.

No, I am only active on this forum at present. All said and done I am finding the discussion here very stimulating and the Spirit edifying, which is not all that common on Christian forums.

I was a member here many moons ago but was politely removed.

Hammerstone runs a well balanced forum which is a credit to him and his fellowlabourers (unpaid I assume)

In the Lords service
Purity

 

[justaname]

The Word "Jesus" became manifest. See the diff? John was saying the same DABAR which said "light" said "Jesus." In the Beginning.





Ultimately no one. ULTIMATE WORSHIP. But as we know the kings of Davidic lineage were all worshiped from the first one, Saul.




Equivocation. God does NOT speak of another God. NEVER. This would naturally make two Gods. GOD annointed him? Then by Jew-terp he must NOT BE God.

The God the throne. The God-established throne, said to a KING who is a man FIRST. Another possibility: Oh elohim...therefore elohim, YOUR elohim has annointed you...

See, the Elohim Theology can possibly explain this. Or that the throne is God-established. But what YOU cannot explain is how these passages first applied to a king of the Hebrews who was a man.






Speaking to YHWH Elohim here, not Jesus.






"Eternal Father" was never said of Jesus, sir. Nice inference, if I may turn aside discreetly...and puke. The Christ is the mediator between God and man. This means he has the authority of mediation and propitiation. This does not make him God. He never said he was God.

He never said he was God.

1. The scripture does not say the Word "became manifest." Scripture says the Word incarnated...big difference than what you attempt.

2.Kings were not worshipped, this is false. First of all Saul is not of the Davidic line. How about some scripture showing where the kings were worshipped.

3.My theology clearly explains "echad", you limit God to being a number. I easily admit Jesus was a man...

4.Scripture is clear Jesus established the heavens and earth...

8 But of the Son He says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.
9 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”
10 And,
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they all will become old like a garment,
12 And like a mantle You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will also be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.”

This also collaborates with Jesus' divinity and His creating all things...


15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.


5. Lets look to scripture again about the Eternal Father reference...

Isaiah 9:6

6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[Purity]

1. The scripture does not say the Word "became manifest." Scripture says the Word incarnated...

Is this being honest justaname?

Do you understand God manifestation?

There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 1 Cor 12:7

Do you think Jesus was given more of His Spirit than Paul or James etc?

If so why?

 

[shturt678]

Buhhht. You do see he said God the Father is the ONLY True God, meaning the same meaning throughout Torah, that NO OTHER stands equal to HIM SINGULAR.

THIS is what no man can get around, including you, sir. Even if you ARE good lookin' and have all your teeth.

Thank you again for your response!

Only reflecting back, ie, waaay back, I never did have any issue regarding the deity of Jesus, however I had an issue regarding Jesus united with God in the womb and it wasn't long that I understood and accepted. When did you begin seeing that Jesus = / = God? I have Jesus, God and man joined and are in heaven, listening to this conversation right now. Just kicking things around with you.

Old Jack not trying to bite off more than he can chew, ie, btw I have no teeth, ie, have to gum to death my food - works for me.

 

[Purity]

It has become clear to me throughout this discussion that the members are not familiar with the subject of God manifestation. At the heart of the Gospel message is a single all powerful God who is primarily concerned with the manifestation of His character and not human salvation.

I will begin a new thread shortly.

Purity

 

[justaname]

Is this being honest justaname?

Do you understand God manifestation?

There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 1 Cor 12:7

Do you think Jesus was given more of His Spirit than Paul or James etc?

If so why?

If you remember I discontinued our discussion due to your personal attacks which you continue, yet in the spirit of forgiveness I will respond.

First off we have the scripture of the incarnation...
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God. [He is lit this one]
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.


14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.



We also have the scripture of the inception...

34 Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?”
35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

So yes I am being entirely honest. The scripture states the Word became flesh. The HolySpirit came unto the woman and the power of the Most High overshadowed her. The conception is the union of divinity with humanity. This is the culmination of human history for Logos incarnated. The manifestation of Jesus is the perfect unification of God and man. The eternal emptied Himself to take on flesh.

You attempt to make the scripture state the flesh manifested the Word or that Jesus became the Word. Your presentation is the dishonest one.

I completely comprehend God's namesake, and the name that is above all other names is Jesus the Christ; Yeshua Ha-Mashiach go check you Bible on that one.

Your question on the value or amount of Spirit in Jesus proves your inability to comprehend the scripture you single out as well as the revelation of God regarding His Son.

 

[Wormwood]

In the midst of the lightness I try to maintain in this thread, I would like to offer a more serious note on this matter. I do believe this issue is of critical importance. I believe this issue is one in which salvation hangs in the balance. 1 John was written about those who were teaching false concepts about Christ. This is what John refers to as "antichrist" and claims that this "spirit of antichrist" is at work in the world to deceive people about the person of Jesus. In this instance, these false teachers were denying that Jesus is the Christ. Similar to Purity's teaching, these false teachers were suggesting that the Spirit of the Christ came down on Jesus at his baptism to give special knowledge (gnosis) and then left when Jesus was put on the cross. According to these false teachers, Jesus was just a man. The Christ Spirit came down on Jesus to give special knowledge, but that is it. The cross had no special significance and one could do whatever they wanted with their bodies because the flesh was evil and the spirit alone was good. Thus, the knowledge the Christ Spirit came to give was all that mattered. Living a righteous life, nor the cross was of significance.

This is why John says,

“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.” (1 John 4:1–3, ESV)

Its also why he says,

“Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father.” (1 John 2:22–24, ESV)

It is not just the water (Christ's baptism) that testifies, but the "water AND the blood." Those who really know Christ walk as Jesus walked because these false teachers were claiming that knowledge alone mattered, not living a holy life. This is why John emphasizes that if we do not love, we don't know God.

My point is that the spirit of the antichrist is at work in the world in these last times (the times since the ascension of Christ). The work of the enemy is to twist the truth of who Jesus is and what he has done for us. It is why Peter says,

“But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.” (2 Peter 2:1, ESV)

There are many groups who use the name Jesus or Christ, but it is not the name, but the content that they pour into that name that matters. Some deny the human nature of Christ because the "flesh is evil" (which is what John was combatting) while others deny the divine nature of Christ (such as the Jews who killed Jesus for blasphemy at such claims). Both are antichrist spirits and I would caution those reading in on these forums to carefully consider their concept of Jesus as a result.

• Jesus is the Creator of all things. (John 1:3; Hebrews 1:2; Col. 1:16)
• God is the Creator of all things (Gen. 1:1; Acts 17:24)

• God is Alpha and Omega. (Rev. 1:8; 21:6)
• Jesus calls himself the Alpha and Omega. (Rev. 22:13)

• Jesus is the first and last (Rev. 1:17-18)
• God is the first and last (Isaiah 44:6)

• God is dressed in white with hair white like wool. (Daniel 7:9)
• Jesus dressed in white with hair white like wool. (Rev. 1:13-14)

• God does not give his glory to another. (Is. 42:8; 48:11)
• People are called to give honor and glory to Jesus. (John 5:22-23; 2 Thess. 2:14; Heb 2:9; 1 Pet. 4:11)

• God alone is to be worshipped. (Matt. 4:10; Rev. 19:10)
• Jesus is worshipped. (Matt. 2:2, 11; 28:9; John 9:38; Heb. 1:6)

• God is the only one we should call upon (Joel 2:32; 1 Kings 18:24)
• Jesus is prayed to (Acts 7:59; Rom. 10:13)

• God declares himself to be "I AM" (Exodus 3:14)
• Jesus declares himself to be "I AM" (John 8:24, 58)

• God alone is Savior (Is. 45:21; Hos. 13:4)
• Jesus alone is Savior (Acts 4:12; Titus 3:4)

• Jesus is the Word (John 1:1, 18)
• The Word is God (John 1:1)

I could list over a hundred such parallels. Don't be swayed by those who would try to find a way to twist or deny the clear teaching of all of these passages by picking them apart or talking about the real meaning of the original language. As you can see in this forum, these arguments have been shown to be without merit. Jesus Christ is who the Scriptures clearly teach him to be, the image of the invisible God (Col. 1:15). The very radiance and nature of God (Heb. 1:3). He and the Father are one (John 2:9). He is the fullness of deity in bodily form (Col. 2:9). He was in very form God and became the form of man (Phil 2:6-7). Jesus made himself equal with God (John 5:18). He is declared to be God on multiple occasions (John 20:28; 1 John 5:20; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1). Jesus is both fully human and fully divine. Any other depiction of Christ is an antichrist depiction that goes against the Scriptures and the earliest teachings of the Church. These arguments by those who want to minimize the person of Jesus the Christ by twisting Scripture and implying conspiracy among early Christians should be utterly rejected as dangerously false teaching.

 

[Purity]

So yes I am being entirely honest. The scripture states the Word became flesh. The HolySpirit came unto the woman and the power of the Most High overshadowed her. The conception is the union of divinity with humanity. This is the culmination of human history for Logos incarnated. The manifestation of Jesus is the perfect unification of God and man. The eternal emptied Himself to take on flesh.

Not dishonest. Incarnation is nowhere taught and the word does not exist in the Holy Writ however God was manifest in the flesh is 1 Tim 3:16KJV....
Purity

In the midst of the lightness I try to maintain in this thread, I would like to offer a more serious note on this matter.

Nice tone.

I do believe this issue is of critical importance. I believe this issue is one in which salvation hangs in the balance.

Salvic knowledge comprises essential doctrines (compared to nonessential) its about praising God in sincerity and in truth - to Gnosis the One true God and Jesus Christ.

Of course, I would argue, as Nothead has done successfully, that He is to be worshipped as "One" not "three in One" (unlike cheap shampoo ;)

1 John was written about those who were teaching false concepts about Christ. This is what John refers to as "antichrist" and claims that this "spirit of antichrist" is at work in the world to deceive people about the person of Jesus. In this instance, these false teachers were denying that Jesus is the Christ. Similar to Purity's teaching, these false teachers were suggesting that the Spirit of the Christ came down on Jesus at his baptism to give special knowledge (gnosis) and then left when Jesus was put on the cross. According to these false teachers, Jesus was just a man. The Christ Spirit came down on Jesus to give special knowledge, but that is it. The cross had no special significance and one could do whatever they wanted with their bodies because the flesh was evil and the spirit alone was good. Thus, the knowledge the Christ Spirit came to give was all that mattered. Living a righteous life, nor the cross was of significance.

Lets clarify this wormwood.

What John refers to as "antichrist" are those who deny Christ came in sins flesh (flesh and blood nature) - fallen condemned nature; now, you cannot have Holy God dwelling in a corrupting nature. I believe Jesus came in the flesh of Adam and Abraham, however, it is you who believe Jesus was a half-bred; a demigod, a combination of flesh and divine nature.

So lets be clear - my teaching / understanding is with John and your teaching is with those false teachers who came after John. Lets be very clear about this wormwood!

re "Spirit of the Christ came down on Jesus at his baptism to give special knowledge" - this is not my understanding, as I have shown you a number of times that Christ grew in wisdom and statue with God and man...the Spirit was simply the endowment of Gods awesome Power and not special knowledge.

To Floyd here http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/19981-defending-the-trinity/?view=findpost&p=225697
To you here http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/19981-defending-the-trinity/?view=findpost&p=223769
You acknowledged it here http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/19981-defending-the-trinity/?view=findpost&p=223769
To you again here http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/19981-defending-the-trinity/?view=findpost&p=223752
To you again here http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/19981-defending-the-trinity/?view=findpost&p=223748

re "According to these false teachers, Jesus was just a man." You place emphasis on "Just" - which is to infer he is less because he was fully man...and sadly does it mean you lessen the triumph God achieved in one who was the Son of Man? By the way, if a person has their Father as Almighty God, that person is anything but "Just" a man...

re "Living a righteous life, nor the cross was of significance. " You are way off the beaten track on this one wormwood. If you seriously want to discuss the true atonement principles then start another thread - I will be more than willing to educate you on why Jesus was made in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin ;) Who knows you may even learn how Jesus benefited from his own death!

It is not just the water (Christ's baptism) that testifies, but the "water AND the blood." Those who really know Christ walk as Jesus walked because these false teachers were claiming that knowledge alone mattered, not living a holy life. This is why John emphasizes that if we do not love, we don't know God.

Growing in knowledge and learning to walk in that knowledge matters immensely...sadly today, too many preach ignorance and a closing of the mind.

My point is that the spirit of the antichrist is at work in the world in these last times (the times since the ascension of Christ). The work of the enemy is to twist the truth of who Jesus is and what he has done for us. It is why Peter says,

The fact that you set yourself up here as being the custodian for truth is an example in itself. My point of contention with you wormwood is your Scriptural evidence has been extremely poor.

There are many groups who use the name Jesus or Christ, but it is not the name, but the content that they pour into that name that matters. Some deny the human nature of Christ because the "flesh is evil" (which is what John was combatting) while others deny the divine nature of Christ (such as the Jews who killed Jesus for blasphemy at such claims). Both are antichrist spirits and I would caution those reading in on these forums to carefully consider their concept of Jesus as a result.

This comment is preposterous and worthy of 50 lashings save one ;)

What did the antichrist deny? "...the gospel of God which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy scriptures, the gospel concerning His Son who was descended from David according to the flesh (What type of flesh wormwood?) and "designated" Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord...." (Rom 1:1-4; cp 2 Jn 1:7)

Answer: Heb 2:17 "Every way condemned and under the dominion of death"

Don't you get that Jesus being born into the condemned line of Adam was the very purpose of declaring his righteousness? Rom 3:25 If Gods commands could be upheld in a condemned man AND sinful flesh crucify a innocent man (unjustly) then God is just and right to raise him. In one comment you declared unwittingly your ignorance on the atonement!

That's why Jesus was crucified through weakness! 2 Cor 13:4 - and you think his nature possessed divinity (ha!)

Jesus possessed our nature, which was a defiled, condemned nature.

That is why it was necessary that Jesus should offer for himself for the purging of his own nature, first, from the uncleanness of death, that having by his own blood obtained eternal redemption for himself (Heb 5:7), he might be able afterward to save to the uttermost those that come unto God by him.

God raised Jesus through the blood of his own sacrifice, as it states very clearly in Heb 13:20

Note: The doctrine of substitution, ie, that a righteous man can by suffering the penalty due to the sinner, free the sinner from the penalty of sin, is foreign to Scripture and is a dogma of heathen mythology.

Purity.

 

[Floyd]

In the midst of the lightness I try to maintain in this thread, I would like to offer a more serious note on this matter. I do believe this issue is of critical importance. I believe this issue is one in which salvation hangs in the balance. 1 John was written about those who were teaching false concepts about Christ. This is what John refers to as "antichrist" and claims that this "spirit of antichrist" is at work in the world to deceive people about the person of Jesus. In this instance, these false teachers were denying that Jesus is the Christ. Similar to Purity's teaching, these false teachers were suggesting that the Spirit of the Christ came down on Jesus at his baptism to give special knowledge (gnosis) and then left when Jesus was put on the cross. According to these false teachers, Jesus was just a man. The Christ Spirit came down on Jesus to give special knowledge, but that is it. The cross had no special significance and one could do whatever they wanted with their bodies because the flesh was evil and the spirit alone was good. Thus, the knowledge the Christ Spirit came to give was all that mattered. Living a righteous life, nor the cross was of significance.

This is why John says,


Its also why he says,


It is not just the water (Christ's baptism) that testifies, but the "water AND the blood." Those who really know Christ walk as Jesus walked because these false teachers were claiming that knowledge alone mattered, not living a holy life. This is why John emphasizes that if we do not love, we don't know God.

My point is that the spirit of the antichrist is at work in the world in these last times (the times since the ascension of Christ). The work of the enemy is to twist the truth of who Jesus is and what he has done for us. It is why Peter says,


There are many groups who use the name Jesus or Christ, but it is not the name, but the content that they pour into that name that matters. Some deny the human nature of Christ because the "flesh is evil" (which is what John was combatting) while others deny the divine nature of Christ (such as the Jews who killed Jesus for blasphemy at such claims). Both are antichrist spirits and I would caution those reading in on these forums to carefully consider their concept of Jesus as a result.

• Jesus is the Creator of all things. (John 1:3; Hebrews 1:2; Col. 1:16)
• God is the Creator of all things (Gen. 1:1; Acts 17:24)

• God is Alpha and Omega. (Rev. 1:8; 21:6)
• Jesus calls himself the Alpha and Omega. (Rev. 22:13)

• Jesus is the first and last (Rev. 1:17-18)
• God is the first and last (Isaiah 44:6)

• God is dressed in white with hair white like wool. (Daniel 7:9)
• Jesus dressed in white with hair white like wool. (Rev. 1:13-14)

• God does not give his glory to another. (Is. 42:8; 48:11)
• People are called to give honor and glory to Jesus. (John 5:22-23; 2 Thess. 2:14; Heb 2:9; 1 Pet. 4:11)

• God alone is to be worshipped. (Matt. 4:10; Rev. 19:10)
• Jesus is worshipped. (Matt. 2:2, 11; 28:9; John 9:38; Heb. 1:6)

• God is the only one we should call upon (Joel 2:32; 1 Kings 18:24)
• Jesus is prayed to (Acts 7:59; Rom. 10:13)

• God declares himself to be "I AM" (Exodus 3:14)
• Jesus declares himself to be "I AM" (John 8:24, 58)

• God alone is Savior (Is. 45:21; Hos. 13:4)
• Jesus alone is Savior (Acts 4:12; Titus 3:4)

• Jesus is the Word (John 1:1, 18)
• The Word is God (John 1:1)

I could list over a hundred such parallels. Don't be swayed by those who would try to find a way to twist or deny the clear teaching of all of these passages by picking them apart or talking about the real meaning of the original language. As you can see in this forum, these arguments have been shown to be without merit. Jesus Christ is who the Scriptures clearly teach him to be, the image of the invisible God (Col. 1:15). The very radiance and nature of God (Heb. 1:3). He and the Father are one (John 2:9). He is the fullness of deity in bodily form (Col. 2:9). He was in very form God and became the form of man (Phil 2:6-7). Jesus made himself equal with God (John 5:18). He is declared to be God on multiple occasions (John 20:28; 1 John 5:20; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1). Jesus is both fully human and fully divine. Any other depiction of Christ is an antichrist depiction that goes against the Scriptures and the earliest teachings of the Church. These arguments by those who want to minimize the person of Jesus the Christ by twisting Scripture and implying conspiracy among early Christians should be utterly rejected as dangerously false teaching.

Well and Truly stated Wormwood!
Floyd.

 

[Purity]

• God is Alpha and Omega. (Rev. 1:8; 21:6)
• Jesus calls himself the Alpha and Omega. (Rev. 22:13)

Lets take one of these misconceptions.

Lets start the obvious first shall we....the Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet.

There just happens to be 24 letters in the Greek alphabet, answering to the 24 elders of Rev 4:4 : which you guest it represents the multitudinous Christ (i.e many members in one body manifesting Yahweh's character.

Is it apporapriate for Jesus who is described as "the word made flesh" be represented this way? Is he not the "author and finisher of our faith?" (Heb 12:2), and to him we should look?

Yes!~

In his verse, however, he speaks as the manifestation of Yahweh, the Almighty.

What Wormwood doesn't understand is Yahweh has no beginning nor ending, His manifestation in man has.

He "is" manifested in the Lord Jesus, and He "will be" manifested in sons of Adam over whom Christ is the Alpha and Omega. See 1Jn 3:1; Rom 8:19; and compare Isa 44:6 with Isa 41:4. In the former, the word "last" is in the singular - referring to the Lord Jesus personally; in the latter, it is in the plural - referring to him in a multitudinous sense. In this context, therefore, Alpha and Omega comprises the title ot Yahweh as manifested in the multitudinous Christ, over whom the Lord Jesus is head.

So in simple terms Yahweh is outside of the Alpha and Omega though he grants a beginning and end to each one of us including Christ though He himself is without beginning and end.

Imagine denying this truth

Purity

Floyd, if you are as intellectually honesty as you suggest, you will learn from this above lesson. You will appreciate the Holy Writ is far deeper and profound than Wormwood has presented. His exegesis has been poor and if anything it has restricted us from sharing a beautifully complete saving massage in Christ Jesus. So your "Well and Truly stated Wormwood!" is actually "Sick and erroneously stated Wormwood!" ..in my humble view.

 

[nothead]

In the midst of the lightness I try to maintain in this thread, I would like to offer a more serious note on this matter. I do believe this issue is of critical importance. I believe this issue is one in which salvation hangs in the balance. 1 John was written about those who were teaching false concepts about Christ. This is what John refers to as "antichrist" and claims that this "spirit of antichrist" is at work in the world to deceive people about the person of Jesus.

Abrahamic Monotheists make jokes so they not be weeping like babies and wreck their keyboards. John was referring to pre-gnostics who said Jesus was all God and only the vision of a man.

"Anti-Christ" referred to this concept, an early and proliferating heresy. Not at all, in fact almost opposite of the Abrahamic ideal. We say Jesus is not absolute God; how could he be since his God is there, said by him to be the Father, his own God. Gnostics said this manifestation of God was God with a illusion of flesh. No Jesus was flesh annointed. Big diff.
By the way, the traditional opponent of Catholics for 1 John is Cerinthus. Get your heresies straight, and you might find your own paradigm fits the category, who knows.

To deny the OT God is heresy? Since when, bubba. Your sanctimonious broohaha is the impetus for me to stay online and refute EVERY SINGLE FLATULENCE you might spout.

In this instance, these false teachers were denying that Jesus is the Christ. Similar to Purity's teaching, these false teachers were suggesting that the Spirit of the Christ came down on Jesus at his baptism to give special knowledge (gnosis) and then left when Jesus was put on the cross. According to these false teachers, Jesus was just a man. The Christ Spirit came down on Jesus to give special knowledge, but that is it. The cross had no special significance and one could do whatever they wanted with their bodies because the flesh was evil and the spirit alone was good. Thus, the knowledge the Christ Spirit came to give was all that mattered. Living a righteous life, nor the cross was of significance.

So then you know Purity's God ain't at all like the opponent of John in 1 John. Purity's God is the Abrahamic God. God never changes. Why should He?

It is not just the water (Christ's baptism) that testifies, but the "water AND the blood." Those who really know Christ walk as Jesus walked because these false teachers were claiming that knowledge alone mattered, not living a holy life. This is why John emphasizes that if we do not love, we don't know God.

How loving is it to promote a fourth century heresy not even close to the theology of Jesus himself? Blind people will lead the unwary into the pit. And be proud of their shared blindness to boot.

My point is that the spirit of the antichrist is at work in the world in these last times (the times since the ascension of Christ). The work of the enemy is to twist the truth of who Jesus is and what he has done for us. It is why Peter says

,
Hardly any of us started out anything but trinitarian. WE have reason to change. YOU have reason to change your view. Yes, salvation is likely at stake. By the Words of God, though through Jesus you are smack dab bassakwerds to the truth.

This is eternal life, that they know YOU the only True God and Jesus Christ (ME) who YOU have sent.

There are many groups who use the name Jesus or Christ, but it is not the name, but the content that they pour into that name that matters. Some deny the human nature of Christ because the "flesh is evil" (which is what John was combatting) while others deny the divine nature of Christ (such as the Jews who killed Jesus for blasphemy at such claims). Both are antichrist spirits and I would caution those reading in on these forums to carefully consider their concept of Jesus as a result.

I don't call the general or chief of staff the president. Neither does the Chief of Staff or the General. IF you knew the First Principle of the Universe, you would know this

Hear Oh Israel, YHWH Elohim, YHWH one.

• Shema trumps any other scripture or interpretation of false meaning. Since it is the First Principle of the Judeo-Christian Nation. I half-oriental nothead being part of this nation.

I could list over a hundred such parallels. Don't be swayed by those who would try to find a way to twist or deny the clear teaching of all of these passages by picking them apart or talking about the real meaning of the original language. As you can see in this forum, these arguments have been shown to be without merit. Jesus Christ is who the Scriptures clearly teach him to be, the image of the invisible God (Col. 1:15). The very radiance and nature of God (Heb. 1:3). He and the Father are one (John 2:9). He is the fullness of deity in bodily form (Col. 2:9). He was in very form God and became the form of man (Phil 2:6-7). Jesus made himself equal with God (John 5:18). He is declared to be God on multiple occasions (John 20:28; 1 John 5:20; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1). Jesus is both fully human and fully divine. Any other depiction of Christ is an antichrist depiction that goes against the Scriptures and the earliest teachings of the Church. These arguments by those who want to minimize the person of Jesus the Christ by twisting Scripture and implying conspiracy among early Christians should be utterly rejected as dangerously false teaching.

Again, Shema trumps them all. Upon which all the prophets and the Law hangs. God is numerically one. This means one entity of God.

 

[Floyd]

CHRISTIAN DAVID GINSBURG



[SIZE=14pt]Encyclopaedic References:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]GINSBURG, CHRISTIAN DAVID (1831 ), Hebrew scholar, was born at Warsaw on the 25th of December 1831. Coming to England shortly after the completion of his education in the Rabbinic College at Warsaw, Dr Ginsburg continued his study of the Hebrew Scriptures, with special attention to the Megilloth. The first result of these studies was a translation of the Song of Songs, with a commentary historical and critical, published in 1857. A similar translation of Ecclesiastes, followed by treatises on the Karaites, on the Essenes and on the Kabbala, kept the author prominently before biblical students while he was preparing the first sections of his magnum opus, the critical study of the Massorah. Beginning in 1867 with the publication of Jacob ben Chajims Introduction to the Rabbinic Bible, Hebrew and English, with notices, and the Massoreth HaMassoreth of Elias Levita, in Hebrew, with translation and commentary, Dr Ginsburg took rank as an eminent Hebrew scholar. In 1870 he was appointed one of the first members of the committee for the revision of the English version of the Old Testament. His life-work culminated in the publication of the Massorah, in three volumes folio (1880-1886), followed by the Masoretico-critical edition of the Hebrew Bible (1894), and the elaborate introduction to it (1897). Dr Ginsburg had one predecessor in the field, the learned Jacob ben Chajim, who in 1524-1525 published the second Rabbinic Bible, containing what has ever since been known as the Massorah; but neither were the materials available nor was criticism sufficiently advanced for a complete edition. Dr Ginsburg took up the subject almost where it was left by those early pioneers, and collected portions of the Massorah from the countless MSS. scattered throughout Europe and the East. More recently Dr Ginsburg has published Facsimiles of Manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible (1897 and 1898), and The Text of the Hebrew Bible in Abbreviations (1903), in addition to a critical treatise on the relationship of the so-called Codex Babylonicus of A.D. 916 to the Eastern Recension of the Hebrew Text (1899, for private circulation). In the last-mentioned work he seeks to prove that the St Petersburg Codex, for so many years accepted as the genuine text of the Babylonian school, is in reality a Palestinian text carefully altered so as to render it conformable to the Babylonian recension. He subsequently undertook the preparation of a new edition of the Hebrew Bible for the British and Foreign Bible Society. He also contributed many articles to J. Kittos Encyclopaedia, W. Smiths Dictionary of Christian Biography and the Encyclopaedia .[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Scriptural Source controversies.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The many controversies re. the origins of the Christian Old Testament (OT), the Septuagint, and the Essenes were dealt with by the scholarship of Dr. David Ginsburg. His international recognition as a Hebrew Scholar, and particularly his famous work on the Massorah, together with his joint efforts with Dr. E. W. Bullinger[/SIZE] in the editing of the Companion Bible, have produced one of the finest critical works of the KJV available.
[SIZE=14pt]The ongoing controversy between the Orthodox (Pharisaic) Jews, and Christians, as to the authentic OT, is cleared by Dr Ginsburg's detailed knowledge and work on the OT Manuscripts, which, as he became a Christian, are not accepted by Pharisaic Jewry, as the Christology of the OT is confirmed by him![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Dr. Ginsburg's conversion to Christ, as he came from a devout background of Orthodoxy, has resulted in his negation by Orthodox Jewry, as he is regarded an "heretic". His detractors state that he became a Christian at age 15, and could not have known what he was doing! However; in the book "The Appointed Time", by Rick L. Wills, on page 3 he states that David Ginsburg converted to Christ at age 25, which makes more sense, as he would have been unlikely to have attended Rabbinical College in Warsaw as a Christian! Also, his rabbinical studies would have prepared him for the momentous works he was to accomplish in his lifetime, particularly on Massorah! The Jewish resistance to his brilliance is understandable, as they lost a great mind to the truth of Christ Jesus Messiah![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Floyd.[/SIZE]

 

[nothead]

CHRISTIAN DAVID GINSBURG



[SIZE=14pt]Encyclopaedic References:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]GINSBURG, CHRISTIAN DAVID (1831 ), Hebrew scholar, was born at Warsaw on the 25th of December 1831. Coming to England shortly after the completion of his education in the Rabbinic College at Warsaw, Dr Ginsburg continued his study of the Hebrew Scriptures, with special attention to the Megilloth. The first result of these studies was a translation of the Song of Songs, with a commentary historical and critical, published in 1857. A similar translation of Ecclesiastes, followed by treatises on the Karaites, on the Essenes and on the Kabbala, kept the author prominently before biblical students while he was preparing the first sections of his magnum opus, the critical study of the Massorah. Beginning in 1867 with the publication of Jacob ben Chajims Introduction to the Rabbinic Bible, Hebrew and English, with notices, and the Massoreth HaMassoreth of Elias Levita, in Hebrew, with translation and commentary, Dr Ginsburg took rank as an eminent Hebrew scholar. In 1870 he was appointed one of the first members of the committee for the revision of the English version of the Old Testament. His life-work culminated in the publication of the Massorah, in three volumes folio (1880-1886), followed by the Masoretico-critical edition of the Hebrew Bible (1894), and the elaborate introduction to it (1897). Dr Ginsburg had one predecessor in the field, the learned Jacob ben Chajim, who in 1524-1525 published the second Rabbinic Bible, containing what has ever since been known as the Massorah; but neither were the materials available nor was criticism sufficiently advanced for a complete edition. Dr Ginsburg took up the subject almost where it was left by those early pioneers, and collected portions of the Massorah from the countless MSS. scattered throughout Europe and the East. More recently Dr Ginsburg has published Facsimiles of Manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible (1897 and 1898), and The Text of the Hebrew Bible in Abbreviations (1903), in addition to a critical treatise on the relationship of the so-called Codex Babylonicus of A.D. 916 to the Eastern Recension of the Hebrew Text (1899, for private circulation). In the last-mentioned work he seeks to prove that the St Petersburg Codex, for so many years accepted as the genuine text of the Babylonian school, is in reality a Palestinian text carefully altered so as to render it conformable to the Babylonian recension. He subsequently undertook the preparation of a new edition of the Hebrew Bible for the British and Foreign Bible Society. He also contributed many articles to J. Kittos Encyclopaedia, W. Smiths Dictionary of Christian Biography and the Encyclopaedia .[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Scriptural Source controversies.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The many controversies re. the origins of the Christian Old Testament (OT), the Septuagint, and the Essenes were dealt with by the scholarship of Dr. David Ginsburg. His international recognition as a Hebrew Scholar, and particularly his famous work on the Massorah, together with his joint efforts with Dr. E. W. Bullinger in the editing of the Companion Bible, have produced one of the finest critical works of the KJV available.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The ongoing controversy between the Orthodox (Pharisaic) Jews, and Christians, as to the authentic OT, is cleared by Dr Ginsburg's detailed knowledge and work on the OT Manuscripts, which, as he became a Christian, are not accepted by Pharisaic Jewry, as the Christology of the OT is confirmed by him![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Dr. Ginsburg's conversion to Christ, as he came from a devout background of Orthodoxy, has resulted in his negation by Orthodox Jewry, as he is regarded an "heretic". His detractors state that he became a Christian at age 15, and could not have known what he was doing! However; in the book "The Appointed Time", by Rick L. Wills, on page 3 he states that David Ginsburg converted to Christ at age 25, which makes more sense, as he would have been unlikely to have attended Rabbinical College in Warsaw as a Christian! Also, his rabbinical studies would have prepared him for the momentous works he was to accomplish in his lifetime, particularly on Massorah! The Jewish resistance to his brilliance is understandable, as they lost a great mind to the truth of Christ Jesus Messiah![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Floyd.[/SIZE]

Blah, blah and double blah.

That's blahblah to you sir.

Did I say he ABROGATED the FIRST PREMISE of the Judeo-Christian faith? Which he as a Jew HAS NO EXCUSE FOR?

SINCE the Shema is the very basis for all Jews being Monotheist in the first place? ABRAHAMIC Monotheism, not your slimy rendition thereof?

 

[Floyd]

Blah, blah and double blah.

That's blahblah to you sir.

Did I say he ABROGATED the FIRST PREMISE of the Judeo-Christian faith? Which he as a Jew HAS NO EXCUSE FOR?

SINCE the Shema is the very basis for all Jews being Monotheist in the first place? ABRAHAMIC Monotheism, not your slimy rendition thereof?

I said already, you cannot compete with such as Dr. Ginsburg; who verified the Trinity to the point of loss of his family, country and fellow Jews in Poland.
His gain was (like Paul said) Christ Jesus!!!!
Floyd.

PS: you have made a real fool of yourself above; give in graciously to superior scholarship, and like him, humble yourself before the Lord God Almighty; and beg forgiveness for your heresy !

 

[shturt678]

Lets take one of these misconceptions.

Lets start the obvious first shall we....the Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet.

There just happens to be 24 letters in the Greek alphabet, answering to the 24 elders of Rev 4:4 : which you guest it represents the multitudinous Christ (i.e many members in one body manifesting Yahweh's character.

Is it apporapriate for Jesus who is described as "the word made flesh" be represented this way? Is he not the "author and finisher of our faith?" (Heb 12:2), and to him we should look?

Yes!~

In his verse, however, he speaks as the manifestation of Yahweh, the Almighty.

What Wormwood doesn't understand is Yahweh has no beginning nor ending, His manifestation in man has.

He "is" manifested in the Lord Jesus, and He "will be" manifested in sons of Adam over whom Christ is the Alpha and Omega. See 1Jn 3:1; Rom 8:19; and compare Isa 44:6 with Isa 41:4. In the former, the word "last" is in the singular - referring to the Lord Jesus personally; in the latter, it is in the plural - referring to him in a multitudinous sense. In this context, therefore, Alpha and Omega comprises the title ot Yahweh as manifested in the multitudinous Christ, over whom the Lord Jesus is head.

So in simple terms Yahweh is outside of the Alpha and Omega though he grants a beginning and end to each one of us including Christ though He himself is without beginning and end.

Imagine denying this truth

Purity

Floyd, if you are as intellectually honesty as you suggest, you will learn from this above lesson. You will appreciate the Holy Writ is far deeper and profound than Wormwood has presented. His exegesis has been poor and if anything it has restricted us from sharing a beautifully complete saving massage in Christ Jesus. So your "Well and Truly stated Wormwood!" is actually "Sick and erroneously stated Wormwood!" ..in my humble view. T

Thank you for caring again!

Rev.1:6, "I am the "Alpha and the Omega, saith the LORD GOD...." I wonder who this "LORD GOD" is? "The Lord God" and the other names designate (not "manifest") the Second Person as is clear from "Alpha and Omega," here, in 21:6, and 22:13.

This is Christ's signature, the signature of His deity. The book is signed in advance by Christ as the One who is no less than "LORD GOD, " co-equal with the Father.

One cannot help but to agape our "Lord God."

Old agaping Jack