Defending the Trinity

[nothead]

I said already, you cannot compete with such as Dr. Ginsburg; who verified the Trinity to the point of loss of his family, country and fellow Jews in Poland.
His gain was (like Paul said) Christ Jesus!!!!
Floyd.

PS: you have made a real fool of yourself above; give in graciously to superior scholarship, and like him, humble yourself before the Lord God Almighty; and beg forgiveness for your heresy !

I'll givim a left right combo if'n I see him in heaven. Yeah you heard me. Think there ain't no battles in the skies? Wasn't the Devil an angel once?

The heavenly host are still the army of God. And I intend to be a warrior at least. I ain't no Caesar Chavez. But if you feel my right hand you will feel it.

 

[JoJoRoss]

Wormwood
[SIZE=12pt]Ah yes. Well, you wouldn't have a "Bible" were it not for the "traditions" you so loathe. With this mentality, we can just dissolve the church as a whole. I think these views are much more the product of the more recent "tradition" of postmodernism. This obsession with individualism and personal perspectives that feels distain for any tradition, leadership or authority is the spirit of this age. It has little to do with the actual teachings of the Bible and how they have been interpreted for thousands of years. Tis a real shame. [/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]In the midst of the lightness I try to maintain in this thread, I would like to offer a more serious note on this matter. I do believe this issue is of critical importance. I believe this issue is one in which salvation hangs in the balance. 1 John was written about those who were teaching false concepts about Christ.[/SIZE]

The scriptures came from God, not tradition. The Word of God is all we need:

2 Timothy 3:16- All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,


We have God in us now when accept His Son to guide us not men:

Jeremiah 31:31-34-
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


We can’t look to traditions of men. When we look to the Word, we can see that this issue was written for us to keep guard of men’s traditions taking over God’s commandments:

Matthew 15:2-3 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

You are making men’s traditions (trinity, “church”) the new mosaic law for believers. I am sorry but that is not biblical sir.

 

[Purity]

Thank you for caring again!

Rev.1:6, "I am the "Alpha and the Omega, saith the LORD GOD...." I wonder who this "LORD GOD" is? "The Lord God" and the other names designate (not "manifest") the Second Person as is clear from "Alpha and Omega," here, in 21:6, and 22:13.

This is Christ's signature, the signature of His deity. The book is signed in advance by Christ as the One who is no less than "LORD GOD, " co-equal with the Father.

One cannot help but to agape our "Lord God."

Old agaping Jack

678, take another look - clearly you missed the teaching but when I have time I will expand on what beginning and end means

It appears we need to go through this slowly so everyone is one the same page.
alpha and omega noun
[from the fact that alpha and omega are respectively the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet]
1 : the beginning and ending
2 : the principal element

I assume no one is going to deny this is factual information relating to the words alpha and omega.

That which has a beginning and an end - yes?

Old Jack... are you on board?

I said already, you cannot compete with such as Dr. Ginsburg; who verified the Trinity to the point of loss of his family, country and fellow Jews in Poland.
His gain was (like Paul said) Christ Jesus!!!!
Floyd.

PS: you have made a real fool of yourself above; give in graciously to superior scholarship, and like him, humble yourself before the Lord God Almighty; and beg forgiveness for your heresy !

Was it the Dr. part of his credentials which caused him to stray so far from the Shema - we may never know.

Check to see if you have an "itch" behind your ear

Your frustration is caused because you cannot accept the Bible text as its has been written in the first instance - when it states Jesus is the Son of God you need to go further and make him something he is not. You know the Apostle Paul never inferred God the Son, or was it written once. This clearly places the Trinity in a precarious position.

You say "However; with your assertions; you cannot escape the duty to produce a cogent; and academically acceptable thesis to support! " and yet, you should ask in the positive "Please provide Scriptural evidence which supports the Prophets and Apostles thesis"

Ok, where else is there a better place to start our discussion than in the beginning; the seedbed of the Bible.

Genesis 3:21 The LORD God (Yahweh Elohim) made garments from skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.

This Floyd, is a Christian's foundation teaching:

1. Sin deserves death (Romans 6:23)
2. Sacrifice offers a covering for sin (Heb 9:26)
3. Only God can provide a sin-covering sacrifice; a sacrifice which is “other than God” (Heb 10:12)

Figuratively speaking Heb 11:19 is speaking to God and His Son - For Abraham, God sacrificed His only Son, whom he has now received again from the dead through the resurrection (Rom 8:31-32; cp Joh 3:16).

The Old Testament repeats and reinforces (as above) these three principles constantly throughout the Law and the Prophets. In fact, if you were intellectually honest (which I hope you are) these three points underpin the entire Law of Moses, which you need to agree, underpins the entire New Testament atonement theology.

It is essential to understand these principles and recognise how they were fulfilled by Christ, as they inform our understanding of his identity and purpose.

The OT was a school teacher pointing forward to Jesus Christ (See Galatians 3:24); any interpretation contradicting the OT’s view of Christ must be rejected.

I will pre-empt your acceptance of points 1&2, however point 3 is where you will become hard of hearing. It is not for me to prove God offering a sacrifice which was NOT himself, as the Bible is clear in this regard - you need to prove firstly, from the OT, and then the NT, that God would offer Himself as a sacrifice for sin...something which is repulsive in my humble view.

Purity

Though Floyd rejected the above in search of published works I personally feel he should continue to read and prayerfully consider the evidence which is being presented.

I will be showing Floyd (and others participants) why Jesus' sin‐covering sacrifice was made effective by Jesus’ humanity (not deity) and come to see him as the apostles and first‐century Christians did: Jesus Christ: Son of God; Son of Man.

When we read the OT we find it refers to Jesus Christ in two ways: typology (which is symbolic) and prophecy. Most if not all Christians should agree with this statement. Jesus appears in prophecy, it is the implications of these symbolic and prophetical revelations which seriously impact NT Christology:

 Atoning sacrifice for Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:21)

 Melchizedek (Genesis 14:18; cp. Hebrews 5:10, 7:1‐10, 9:11)

 Ram sacrificed by Abraham (Genesis 22:11‐13)

 Passover lamb (Exodus 12; cp. John 1:29, 1 Peter 1:19, Revelation 5:6)

 Sin offering for high priest & (Leviticus 4)

 Brass serpent on pole (Numbers 21:8‐9; cp. John 3:14)

 Joseph (Genesis 37‐41)

 Boaz (Ruth 2‐4)

 King David (1 Samuel 17‐1 Kings 2)

 King Solomon (1 Kings 4‐1 Kings 11)

What the Trinitarian has struggled to accept as we have seen in Wormwoods communication with Nothead is the various primary roles Messiah is presented

(1) sacrifice for sin
(2) priest
(3) redeemer
(4) divinely anointed king in King David’s family line.

The Bible both NT and OT speak of a Jewish Messiah who incorporates all four roles simultaneously, none of which requires him to be God, and two (sacrifice for sin and descendent of King David) requiring he is not God.

A note to the Trinitarians - you will have seen so far in all our deliberations a failure to respond to these Scriptural arguments - why so? Why when sound Bible reasoning is put forward is there no rebuttal?

I suggest the only reason I perceive thus far is there are none to be found.

Truth has been revealed and rejected

Purity

 

[justaname]

678, take another look - clearly you missed the teaching but when I have time I will expand on what beginning and end means

It appears we need to go through this slowly so everyone is one the same page.
alpha and omega noun
[from the fact that alpha and omega are respectively the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet]
1 : the beginning and ending
2 : the principal element

I assume no one is going to deny this is factual information relating to the words alpha and omega.

That which has a beginning and an end - yes?

Old Jack... are you on board?


Was it the Dr. part of his credentials which caused him to stray so far from the Shema - we may never know.


Though Floyd rejected the above in search of published works I personally feel he should continue to read and prayerfully consider the evidence which is being presented.

I will be showing Floyd (and others participants) why Jesus' sin‐covering sacrifice was made effective by Jesus’ humanity (not deity) and come to see him as the apostles and first‐century Christians did: Jesus Christ: Son of God; Son of Man.

When we read the OT we find it refers to Jesus Christ in two ways: typology (which is symbolic) and prophecy. Most if not all Christians should agree with this statement. Jesus appears in prophecy, it is the implications of these symbolic and prophetical revelations which seriously impact NT Christology:

 Atoning sacrifice for Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:21)

 Melchizedek (Genesis 14:18; cp. Hebrews 5:10, 7:1‐10, 9:11)

 Ram sacrificed by Abraham (Genesis 22:11‐13)

 Passover lamb (Exodus 12; cp. John 1:29, 1 Peter 1:19, Revelation 5:6)

 Sin offering for high priest & (Leviticus 4)

 Brass serpent on pole (Numbers 21:8‐9; cp. John 3:14)

 Joseph (Genesis 37‐41)

 Boaz (Ruth 2‐4)

 King David (1 Samuel 17‐1 Kings 2)

 King Solomon (1 Kings 4‐1 Kings 11)

What the Trinitarian has struggled to accept as we have seen in Wormwoods communication with Nothead is the various primary roles Messiah is presented

(1) sacrifice for sin
(2) priest
(3) redeemer
(4) divinely anointed king in King David’s family line.

The Bible both NT and OT speak of a Jewish Messiah who incorporates all four roles simultaneously, none of which requires him to be God, and two (sacrifice for sin and descendent of King David) requiring he is not God.

A note to the Trinitarians - you will have seen so far in all our deliberations a failure to respond to these Scriptural arguments - why so? Why when sound Bible reasoning is put forward is there no rebuttal?

I suggest the only reason I perceive thus far is there are none to be found.

Truth has been revealed and rejected

Purity

None of this is an argument against the divinity of Christ...these things are not refuted yet this is not the full revelation of scripture.

These things are partial to the role of Christ as His own words attest...

Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

John tells of a different role Jesus enacts...

the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

What Trinitarians present is the full revelation of God, given by the testimony of Jesus the Christ, spread abroad by the apostles and saints, held as sound doctrine by the Church.

 

[Purity]

Thank you for caring again!

Rev.1:6, "I am the "Alpha and the Omega, saith the LORD GOD...." I wonder who this "LORD GOD" is? "The Lord God" and the other names designate (not "manifest") the Second Person as is clear from "Alpha and Omega," here, in 21:6, and 22:13.

This is Christ's signature, the signature of His deity. The book is signed in advance by Christ as the One who is no less than "LORD GOD, " co-equal with the Father.

One cannot help but to agape our "Lord God."

Old agaping Jack

Your inference here is also noted Old Jack.

What in affect you are saying is because one bares a divine title this must make them God? Am I right to assume this as your inference here?

A Unitarians position is that Christ is a divinely appointed representative of God and bears God's titles just like the example of the angel of God did in OT times.

If you disagree with this then please explain to us how being given a divine title immediately makes them God.

Purity

None of this is an argument against the divinity of Christ...these things are not refuted yet this is not the full revelation of scripture.

These things are partial to the role of Christ as His own words attest...

Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

John tells of a different role Jesus enacts...

the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

What Trinitarians present is the full revelation of God, given by the testimony of Jesus the Christ, spread abroad by the apostles and saints, held as sound doctrine by the Church.

Justaname,

Read this with me; God cannot be a sacrifice for sin or a King in David's line...do you comprehend?

 

[shturt678]

678, take another look - clearly you missed the teaching but when I have time I will expand on what beginning and end means
It appears we need to go through this slowly so everyone is one the same page.
alpha and omega noun
[from the fact that alpha and omega are respectively the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet]
1 : the beginning and ending
2 : the principal element

I assume no one is going to deny this is factual information relating to the words alpha and omega.

That which has a beginning and an end - yes?

Old Jack... are you on board?

Thank your again for your response and is one of your better replys, ie, excellent!

I'm ex-Navy and 'aboard' only don't make me seasick, ie, steady as she goes mate.

I just wanted to make sure we are on the same boat, ie, Rev.18, "I am the Alpha and the Omega." None other than "I alone" am God's revelation for men and that in written form. Will let the "saith Lord God" go for now taking notes from your view.




Was it the Dr. part of his credentials which caused him to stray so far from the Shema - we may never know.

Though Floyd rejected the above in search of published works I personally feel he should continue to read and prayerfully consider the evidence which is being presented.

I will be showing Floyd (and others participants) why Jesus' sin‐covering sacrifice was made effective by Jesus’ humanity (not deity) and come to see him as the apostles and first‐century Christians did: Jesus Christ: Son of God; Son of Man.

I checked the ship's log and found the following statemernts: A.D. 325, the council of Nicaea strongly affirmed teh deity of Jesus Christ, realizing that our savation depends upon the Incarnation. If Jesus was not both Truly God and truly man, His death couldn't atone for our sin. Only God would be capable of the infiite sacrifice necessary to the sins of the world.

Then the next entry: Acts3:13, "Servant Jesus" This is the great Ebed Yahweh of Isaiah, chapters 40-66, the "Servant" of YHWH, who is His Son, indeed, but the Son who by His Incarnation become "His Servant" to work out our salvation.

Before taking over the Bridge, one must scrutinize the boat's log maty

When we read the OT we find it refers to Jesus Christ in two ways: typology (which is symbolic) and prophecy. Most if not all Christians should agree with this statement. Jesus appears in prophecy, it is the implications of these symbolic and prophetical revelations which seriously impact NT Christology:

 Atoning sacrifice for Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:21)

Gen.3:21, Boat is sinking, ie, sprung a leak already, ie, It's too difficult to say whether the slaying of beasts for the purpose of clothing in Adam's day already involved 'sacrifice.' Sprung a leak and a few degrees off on the compass just starting out - not good?

 Melchizedek (Genesis 14:18;

Gen.14:18, he simply does this as one who wants to be seen to offer his support to such good men, ie, expresses only friendship. We're not doing too well and need a compass adjustment along the way soon sir.

cp. Hebrews 5:10, 7:1‐10, 9:11)

This is not going as well as I thought it would, however I do appreciate the caring where most could care less.

 Ram sacrificed by Abraham (Genesis 22:11‐13)

 Passover lamb (Exodus 12; cp. John 1:29, 1 Peter 1:19, Revelation 5:6)

 Sin offering for high priest & (Leviticus 4)

 Brass serpent on pole (Numbers 21:8‐9; cp. John 3:14)

 Joseph (Genesis 37‐41)

 Boaz (Ruth 2‐4)

 King David (1 Samuel 17‐1 Kings 2)

 King Solomon (1 Kings 4‐1 Kings 11)

What the Trinitarian has struggled to accept as we have seen in Wormwoods communication with Nothead is the various primary roles Messiah is presented

(1) sacrifice for sin
(2) priest
(3) redeemer
(4) divinely anointed king in King David’s family line.

The Bible both NT and OT speak of a Jewish Messiah who incorporates all four roles simultaneously, none of which requires him to be God, and two (sacrifice for sin and descendent of King David) requiring he is not God.

A note to the Trinitarians - you will have seen so far in all our deliberations a failure to respond to these Scriptural arguments - why so? Why when sound Bible reasoning is put forward is there no rebuttal?

I suggest the only reason I perceive thus far is there are none to be found.

Truth has been revealed and rejected

Purity

Thank you again from a lower paygrade view,

Old caring, and appreciative Jack

The scriptures came from God, not tradition. The Word of God is all we need:

2 Timothy 3:16- All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,


We have God in us now when accept His Son to guide us not men:

Jeremiah 31:31-34-
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


We can’t look to traditions of men. When we look to the Word, we can see that this issue was written for us to keep guard of men’s traditions taking over God’s commandments:

Matthew 15:2-3 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

You are making men’s traditions (trinity, “church”) the new mosaic law for believers. I am sorry but that is not biblical sir.


Thank you for caring!

Only one small itsy bitsy problem, ie, we don't have the original inspired Autographs, ie, "the Inspried Word of God," ie, we have only translated Bibles that are exrememly interpretive at that.- do you have the one valid interpretation compared to all the diverse interpretations where each think they have the valid one.

Not picking on you and thank you again,

Old Jack's view

 

[Purity]

I checked the ship's log and found the following statemernts: A.D. 325, the council of Nicaea strongly affirmed teh deity of Jesus Christ, realizing that our savation depends upon the Incarnation. If Jesus was not both Truly God and truly man, His death couldn't atone for our sin. Only God would be capable of the infiite sacrifice necessary to the sins of the world.

Then the next entry: Acts3:13, "Servant Jesus" This is the great Ebed Yahweh of Isaiah, chapters 40-66, the "Servant" of YHWH, who is His Son, indeed, but the Son who by His Incarnation become "His Servant" to work out our salvation.

Before taking over the Bridge, one must scrutinize the boat's log maty

By now you probably sense my love and respect for the councilmen at Nice is likened to that unfortunate growth one desperately seeks help in removing. Do you have the scapple?

Once you have surgically remove yourself from the ECF's, you "may" then have the opportunity to discover truth, but until then the captains log showed the ship hit an iceberg - all Trinitarians on board perished. As it went down they screamed "surely the incarnation was true!!!!"

Purity

Gen.3:21, Boat is sinking, ie, sprung a leak already, ie, It's too difficult to say whether the slaying of beasts for the purpose of clothing in Adam's day already involved 'sacrifice.' Sprung a leak and a few degrees off on the compass just starting out - not good?

Rev. 13:8

Gen.14:18, he simply does this as one who wants to be seen to offer his support to such good men, ie, expresses only friendship. We're not doing too well and need a compass adjustment along the way soon sir.

Throughout the Bible he comes before us in history (Gen. 14); in prophecy (Psa. 110); in typology (Heb. 7).

He is King of Righteousness and King of Peace: the first needful to the second. He is Priest of the Most High God; therefore a King Priest. On this auspicious occasion, after Abram has overthrown the confederacy from the north, he meets with him at Salem, offers him bread and wine, and blesses him in the name of God.

On all counts his priesthood is fulfilled in Christ Jesus who is the King Priest...but not God - the mediator between God and man - the Man Jesus.

His name means King of Righteousness, and his title (King of Salem) signifies King of Peace. Paul states that this has a doctrinal significance "first being by interpretation King of Righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of Peace" (Heb 7:2). Righteousness inevitably must precede peace (see James 3:17; Isa. 48:22; Isa. 57:21). The immortal priests of the Age to come will be king-priests (Rev. 5:9-10), and are represented as "sons of Zadok" (righteousness — Ezek. 44:15), because after the order of Melchi-Zadok.

Old Jack, should you like any more information on the study of Melchizedek let me know.

Some have foolishly tried to make him Christ; some have not understood what his priesthood offers: some have failed to appreciate the King Priest role assigned to Christ - many believe in the Trinity.

Still caring Old Jack.

 

[Floyd]

None of this is an argument against the divinity of Christ...these things are not refuted yet this is not the full revelation of scripture.

These things are partial to the role of Christ as His own words attest...

Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

John tells of a different role Jesus enacts...

the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

What Trinitarians present is the full revelation of God, given by the testimony of Jesus the Christ, spread abroad by the apostles and saints, held as sound doctrine by the Church.


Yes; just so!

Floyd.

 

[Purity]

None of this is an argument against the divinity of Christ...these things are not refuted yet this is not the full revelation of scripture.

These things are partial to the role of Christ as His own words attest...

Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

John tells of a different role Jesus enacts...

the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

What Trinitarians present is the full revelation of God, given by the testimony of Jesus the Christ, spread abroad by the apostles and saints, held as sound doctrine by the Church.


Yes; just so!

Floyd.

Floyd,

What do you think are the works of the devil?

Be careful how you answer

 

[Floyd]

Floyd,

What do you think are the works of the devil?

Be careful how you answer

[SIZE=26pt]Satan's purpose 11-18[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]CHAPTER 11[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.18[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]the nations have been full of wrath,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]now your wrath is come,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and the time of the (c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]dead to be judged,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and to give the (d)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]recompense to thy servants the prophets,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]to the saints, and to those that fear Thy name, small and great;[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and to (e)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]destroy[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]those that destroy the earth."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](e)[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]"Destroy those that destroy the earth;" [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]this, and many other hard and firm statements in Scripture are not easily accepted by Christendom currently, because of the many false teachings around the world propagating the "gentle Jesus," myth. There is no doubt that our Lord is the most gentle Saviour, but Christ (The Anointed of Jehovah) has to deal with the evil of which most people are unaware, and in the timing of Jehovah (Rev. 6,) that dealing [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]leading to the ultimate conquering of[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Satan is underway. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]In that context, Satan expected the victory when Christ died on the accursed tree, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]but instead Christ gained victory over death, and became the first fruit of propitiation (the saved) to the Father, (Jehovah God.) [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]In this knowledge, Satan, who knows The Word, laid plans, and has the freedom[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] to attempt to eliminate Israel. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]If this attempt succeeds he has the victory. Satan's strategy is:-[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]1) To obtain the knowledge of creation (Jer. 31:35-37,) (this has been sought avidly by science since approx. AD 1850.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]2) To destroy the earth by degradation of all means. (This has accelerated since the start of the Industrial revolution.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]3) To destroy Israel. (This has increased in intensity since the 2nd. world war.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]4) To destroy faith in God/ Christ. (Satan has permit to do his best/worst, to kill or prevent belief, faith, or love in Christ!)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]It has been recognised since the 1800s that one of the most effective tools for Satan's propaganda is the Pulpit. In modern times read leaders, pastors, etc., who preach a false message. One of the most powerful at this date 2014, is in the Charismatic movement advocating the same powers as was manifest in the Acts period for the benefit of the Jews. It is undoubtedly the case that the fastest growing Group in Christendom are the Charismatics, and their leaders when challenged re their miraculous powers usually respond by attacking the questioner, to the effect that they are of Satan! [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]A further very suspicious and dubious grouping are under the joint heading of the "Ecumenical Movement." This grouping is discreetly led by Rome, and has the purpose of drawing large groups of Christian Dominations together. That in itself is a worthy object, however, as the criterion is not to concentrate on the differences in theology, the distinct stipulation of Salvation in Christ only (Acts 4:12) is neglected or eliminated![/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt]Other erroneous groups, such as The Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Unitarians and New Age; all have aberrations in their teachings, usually ref. the Deity of Jesus Christ. See: [/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]"New Age" Religion:[/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt]It is not the intention in this comment to imply or state that the people involved are not Christians. That is a question only the Lord Himself knows, as only He knows the heart of every person. What is intended, is to throw suspicion on the motives of the leadership of these groupings.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]It is the opinion of the writers that these powerful groupings will be used by the Beast/Antichrist for his purposes on a world-wide scale.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]All of these are in progress at present, and in V.18 all the destroying agencies, people, demons and methods are destroyed, (Zech. 13:2.) This must take place, together with Satan's binding, prior to the regeneration of the earth by Jehovah Zebaoth, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and the 1000 year reign of Jehovah / Christ.[/SIZE]

Floyd,

What do you think are the works of the devil?

Be careful how you answer

[SIZE=20pt]Satan’s Motivation![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]First a few words on Satan himself.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Scripture says that Satan was the most magnificent being that God created. The word Satan is Hebrew, and means “an adversary, an enemy, an accuser”. He has other names which are related to Greek, and his role in events yet to be. Note that he is a “created” being, not “begotten”, as only Jesus has that designation! Before Satan became the “adversary”, his name was “Lucifer”, which means “Morning star”, and his fall from favour is described in Isaiah 14:12-15.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]There is much confusion and myth regarding Satan, starting in the Garden of Eden. He is there in Gen. 3:1, called a “serpent”, from the Hebrew “nachash”, which means “to hiss, mutter, whisper, etc.”, which has been translated subsequently as “serpent”. An allied Chaldean word means “bright”, which chimes with other Scriptural comment describing Satan as having a “glorious appearance”. In Isaiah 6:2-6, the Hebrew word “seraph” is used to describe “heavenly beings” as “burning bright, and elevated”. In Numbers 21:8, “saraph” is “fiery serpent”. The words seraph and nachash are both used in Scripture to describe a serpent and a glorious spirit being. In 2 Cor. 11:3, Paul fears for the Corinthians, that they will be beguiled as Adam and Eve, and refers to the appearance of Satan on that occasion in 2 Cor. 11:14, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]"that he has transformed himself into an angel of light".[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]So, when Satan beguiled Eve, he was magnificent to behold, as he said “surely thou wilt not die”, Gen. 3:4, and he has been saying it ever since, with the consequence that many humans will listen to him, and will go to their destruction! They will listen to Satan, even though they know the difference between good and evil![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]In summary of this brief description; Satan was the most beautiful of God’s created creatures. He became enchanted by his own beauty and power, and wanted God’s position Ezek. 28. He is cast from favour, Isaiah 14:12. His name is changed after his rebellion, to Satan, and he is allowed to try to stop trust and faith in God on earth, (Job). This process is still under way, and will not end until the events described in Rev. 20:2![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]In conversation with an Orthodox Jew, the information was offered that Orthodox Judaism does not interpret the references to Satan in the Old Testament (Tanach), as is understood by right thinking Christians (Christ-Ones). One has to be reminded here, that “Orthodox Judaism” sprang from the Pharisees of Jesus’ day.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]The Old Testament (OT) shows that Satan has freewill which showed in the Garden of Eden in Genesis, but it is surmised that his existence is much older. Scripture refers to him as the Covering Cherub of an earlier situation, Ezek. 28:14 (in the KJV, the "art" should be translated "wast"), hence the supposition that Satan in his earlier pre-rebellious mode was an appointed trustee by Almighty God which he reneged against. The fact that Satan tried successfully to pervert the Words of God to Eve and Adam re the “the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil”, cuts no ice with Pharisaic Jews, and they merely say that all Satan was/is an Angel of God, and only a “servant” subject to God’s commands, without freewill![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]That clearly cannot be, as Satan quickly showed himself to be against God in the Garden of Eden. There clearly is great purpose in the forbearance of Almighty God in allowing Satan's constant rebellion and perversion of people and angels, as witnessed in Revelation. However, the outworking of Satan's rebellion has yet to be dealt with pen-ultimately at the beginning of the Millennial Reign of Christ/Jehovah on earth, and finally at the end of the Millennial Reign Rev. 20:10.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]The references to Satan’s many attempts in Scripture to pervert God’s Words can be examined by anybody, so space will not be used here for such.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The remarkable thing to notice in all the events where Satan is involved is the fact that he always wanted/wants to deliberately change the meaning of the Words that God has given! Why would he do that? Well the answer quite simply is that to do so contravenes the Will of Almighty God! Why would Satan want to contravene God’s Will? To thwart His Plans! Why would Satan want to thwart God’s Plans? Because, if he was successful he would conquer God on God’s own Territory, which is His Love, His Word, His Promises, and His Fidelity to all His pronouncements in Scripture; and His Holy Being![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Here we have the core of the matter! God has in the past made firm promises to mankind, starting in Genesis 3:15, (which through the Roman Church, Satan has tried to attribute to Mary, instead of Jesus).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]What then is the plan of Satan?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Satan's strategy is:-[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]1) To obtain the knowledge of Creation (Jer. 31:35-37,) (this has been sought avidly by science since approx. AD 1850.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]2) To destroy the earth by degradation of all means. (This has accelerated since the start of the Industrial Revolution.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]3) To destroy Israel. (This has increased in intensity since the 2nd world war.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]4) To destroy faith in God/ Christ. (Satan is permitted to do his best/worst, to kill or prevent belief, faith, or love in Christ!)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]1) Satan has been trying to obtain the knowledge of Creation from the beginning, and is behind the work of Darwin and others to this purpose. He will not admit defeat, and will persevere in this up to the “[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Day of the Lord[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]”.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]2) The attempts to degrade the earth’s environment has accelerated since the Industrial Revolution in the UK, and is a strong sign of the times we are living in, accelerating towards the “[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Day of The Lord[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]”.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]3) This effort of Satan has been underway since Abram. As the promises were made by Jehovah God to His people, Satan’s efforts have increased, as was evidenced by the 2ndWorld War. The fact that the religious life of Israel is dominated by Pharisees, the same group that denied and organized Christ’s crucifixion via the Romans, does not help their situation, nor their denial of Satan as a powerful entity against God, and themselves! Satan’s purpose is to eliminate Israel, so that he can negate God’s promises to the Patriarchs! God has stated categorically that Israel will always exist, and Satan is extremely active in trying to thwart that Promise! Israel, since becoming a Nation again in 1948, are probably close to the OT promised culminations, but unfortunately, have yet to suffer more.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]They have yet to experience a false leader and situation, which will thankfully be short lived! [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]4) Satan’s current major thrust is to try to destroy the message of God in Christ. Since the Reformation in the 16th century he has lost his grip on the Word of God through the Roman Church, (although it has crept back to quite a large degree). He has quite successfully transferred corruption and confusion to many Protestant groups, to the extent that many people are held under one form of bondage or another! How has he done this? Quite simply by the same methods he used in the Roman case. He has used the minds of men to distort the Words of God, especially in Christ Jesus. The reformation ethos of re-examining the basic Principles of Doctrine were/are fertile ground for him![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Many new Groups and Sects that have proliferated since the Reformation have proved fertile ground for the wiles of Satan, and the confusion of mankind. More than one good man has said that Satan’s best recruiting ground is in the Pulpit, not in the fleshpots of the world! At the present, it is these people that Satan wants to add to his list of converts, which at present includes 1/3 of all heavens angels![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]How then to be sure of being in the Truth of God in Christ, and not be beguiled by Satan’s lies and subtlety?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]One of the most profound Truths of Jesus, is that He makes us free! The many and varied “rules” and complex “interpretations” of Satan’s preachers and teachers are so formulated, that even they can’t explain with clarity what they are talking about! Any person can go to the Bible, and prayerfully ask for understanding, for the love of God in Christ to be theirs! Any teacher that puts conditions on this, is not in Truth![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Any teacher or Group that states that the Israel of the Old Testament has not got a future, and have been disowned by Jehovah God and are replaced by the “Church”, are not telling the truth, and should be ignored. This teaching is sometimes linked to that of “Election”, and states that we have no choice in the matter of Salvation, only those “selected by God” are “Elect” and “Foreknown”. For more on this subject see: [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Is Our Freewill Of Value Or Is Everything Predestined?[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt](Separate study)[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Calvinist "Works" Teaching[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] (Separate study)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Any teacher or Group that try to use words to bamboozle the seeker, and any form of threat or insult, should be ignored; and the seeker can rest assured in the simple message of Christ Jesus, that all who believe in Him will have eternal life (John 3:16)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]By these methods, the seeker will find peace and Salvation in Jesus the Christ of Almighty God; and by reading the Bible, as a friend, will come to know more of the Mind of Christ/God![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]There is no doubt that our Lord is the most gentle Saviour, but Christ (The Anointed of Jehovah) has to deal with the evil of which most of us are unaware, and in the timing of Jehovah (Rev. 6,) that dealing leading to the ultimate conquering of Satan is underway. In that context, Satan expected the victory when Christ died on the accursed tree, but instead Christ gained victory over death, and became the first fruit of propitiation (the saved) to the Father, (Jehovah God). So Satan’s plans and motivations will come to nothing eventually![/SIZE]

Floyd,

What do you think are the works of the devil?

Be careful how you answer

[SIZE=13.5pt]Mystery Babylon;[/SIZE]


[SIZE=medium]Rev.14:8. V.8 And there followed (a)another angel, saying, "(b)Babylon is fallen, the great (c)city, (d)because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium](a)"Another;" (Greek; ALLOS = another of the same kind.) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium](b)"Babylon;" see Isa. 21:9 & Rev. 18:2. As mentioned in earlier chapters, Babylon is the source of all pagan religions, (in this Creation). That progressed strongly under Nimrod and his mother. Their work has spread worldwide, and their pagan heritage is in all countries, and as well as religions, is showing in all human activity. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]As mentioned previously, all religions or human activity which does not acknowledge Acts. 4:12, is of Babylon! In V.8 of Rev. 14, we are told that Babylon is fallen! When that happens in the future, all the world's systems, governments, institutions, trade and commerce, religions and beliefs, ideas and opinions etc., will be brought to nothing, and will stand helpless before Almighty Jehovah Zebaoth![/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium](c)"City;" is not in the ancient text, in this statement the reference is to the great Satanic Babylonian force.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium](d)"Because etc;" here is the simply stated fact that Satan has used all the human Babylonian endeavours to attempt to usurp God Almighty, and enslave and control human beings for his purpose. The words "made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication;" gives the meaning to the methods of Satan's controls, using all human weaknesses.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Rev.18. V.2 (a)And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, "(b)Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of demons, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium](a)Powerful messenger, and the message so joyful that the angel is bursting with power in the voice! [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium](b)See 14:8 and notes. Also, Isa. 21:9, 47:9-11, Jer. 51:8. The physical Babylon became desolate approx. B.C. 539, after the Medes and the Persians ruled, (Medo - Persian empire.) The angel's declaration concerns the great Satanic spiritual parallel, which has grown from the physical original, and has spread worldwide. This concerns all man's activities which are not under the auspices of God. Particularly; all trade, commerce, money making activity and anything related to world commerce, where a hierarchy of favour and coercion for favour from men/women is involved. There is probably no area of human activity excluded from the curse of spiritual Babylon, except "prayer and worship in spirit and in truth," John 4:23-24. We are all involved in the system at present, until it is brought to an end (see 14:8) and elsewhere, hence Paul's warning, (1Tim. 6:10. the love of money etc.) The Almighty's disfavour was shown when Christ cleansed the Temple in Jerusalem with a whip, of moneychangers and traders, (John 2:15,) (Psm. 69:9,) which is a precursor of the great fall of "Babylon!" (The error and sin was the use of the Temple for monitory gain and exchange, as opposed to another area without the connotation of Sanctity.)[/SIZE]

 

[Purity]

:blink: you were not careful Floyd.

The verse you were quoting has context and meaning and in your machine gun approach shot up every verse which you think speaks to this subject.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8)

Where does sin come from?
What sinned from the beginning?
In what was God manifested?
From what did these works originate from?

Floyd - slow down and work through the verse you quoted - consider the questions and think about other Scriptures which help you in answering these questions.

See how you go.
Purity

Unwittingly this subject is closely related to the Trinity as you may see

 

[Floyd]

:blink: you were not careful Floyd.

The verse you were quoting has context and meaning and in your machine gun approach shot up every verse which you think speaks to this subject.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8)

Where does sin come from?
What sinned from the beginning?
In what was God manifested?
From what did these works originate from?

Floyd - slow down and work through the verse you quoted - consider the questions and think about other Scriptures which help you in answering these questions.

See how you go.
Purity

No, you have it wrong; your comments are naïve, and wrongly linked. Much work has been done prayerfully over many years on this subject; and you are in any case not in truth; so how could you possible know. You must read all the above carefully; and the below; before you can begin to speak for Satan !

[SIZE=20pt]Satan’s Motivation![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]First a few words on Satan himself.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Scripture says that Satan was the most magnificent being that God created. The word Satan is Hebrew, and means “an adversary, an enemy, an accuser”. He has other names which are related to Greek, and his role in events yet to be. Note that he is a “created” being, not “begotten”, as only Jesus has that designation! Before Satan became the “adversary”, his name was “Lucifer”, which means “Morning star”, and his fall from favour is described in Isaiah 14:12-15.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]There is much confusion and myth regarding Satan, starting in the Garden of Eden. He is there in Gen. 3:1, called a “serpent”, from the Hebrew “nachash”, which means “to hiss, mutter, whisper, etc.”, which has been translated subsequently as “serpent”. An allied Chaldean word means “bright”, which chimes with other Scriptural comment describing Satan as having a “glorious appearance”. In Isaiah 6:2-6, the Hebrew word “seraph” is used to describe “heavenly beings” as “burning bright, and elevated”. In Numbers 21:8, “saraph” is “fiery serpent”. The words seraph and nachash are both used in Scripture to describe a serpent and a glorious spirit being. In 2 Cor. 11:3, Paul fears for the Corinthians, that they will be beguiled as Adam and Eve, and refers to the appearance of Satan on that occasion in 2 Cor. 11:14, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]"that he has transformed himself into an angel of light".[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]So, when Satan beguiled Eve, he was magnificent to behold, as he said “surely thou wilt not die”, Gen. 3:4, and he has been saying it ever since, with the consequence that many humans will listen to him, and will go to their destruction! They will listen to Satan, even though they know the difference between good and evil![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]In summary of this brief description; Satan was the most beautiful of God’s created creatures. He became enchanted by his own beauty and power, and wanted God’s position Ezek. 28. He is cast from favour, Isaiah 14:12. His name is changed after his rebellion, to Satan, and he is allowed to try to stop trust and faith in God on earth, (Job). This process is still under way, and will not end until the events described in Rev. 20:2![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]In conversation with an Orthodox Jew, the information was offered that Orthodox Judaism does not interpret the references to Satan in the Old Testament (Tanach), as is understood by right thinking Christians (Christ-Ones). One has to be reminded here, that “Orthodox Judaism” sprang from the Pharisees of Jesus’ day.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]The Old Testament (OT) shows that Satan has freewill which showed in the Garden of Eden in Genesis, but it is surmised that his existence is much older. Scripture refers to him as the Covering Cherub of an earlier situation, Ezek. 28:14 (in the KJV, the "art" should be translated "wast"), hence the supposition that Satan in his earlier pre-rebellious mode was an appointed trustee by Almighty God which he reneged against. The fact that Satan tried successfully to pervert the Words of God to Eve and Adam re the “the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil”, cuts no ice with Pharisaic Jews, and they merely say that all Satan was/is an Angel of God, and only a “servant” subject to God’s commands, without freewill![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]That clearly cannot be, as Satan quickly showed himself to be against God in the Garden of Eden. There clearly is great purpose in the forbearance of Almighty God in allowing Satan's constant rebellion and perversion of people and angels, as witnessed in Revelation. However, the outworking of Satan's rebellion has yet to be dealt with pen-ultimately at the beginning of the Millennial Reign of Christ/Jehovah on earth, and finally at the end of the Millennial Reign Rev. 20:10.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]The references to Satan’s many attempts in Scripture to pervert God’s Words can be examined by anybody, so space will not be used here for such.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The remarkable thing to notice in all the events where Satan is involved is the fact that he always wanted/wants to deliberately change the meaning of the Words that God has given! Why would he do that? Well the answer quite simply is that to do so contravenes the Will of Almighty God! Why would Satan want to contravene God’s Will? To thwart His Plans! Why would Satan want to thwart God’s Plans? Because, if he was successful he would conquer God on God’s own Territory, which is His Love, His Word, His Promises, and His Fidelity to all His pronouncements in Scripture; and His Holy Being![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Here we have the core of the matter! God has in the past made firm promises to mankind, starting in Genesis 3:15, (which through the Roman Church, Satan has tried to attribute to Mary, instead of Jesus).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]What then is the plan of Satan?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Satan's strategy is:-[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]1) To obtain the knowledge of Creation (Jer. 31:35-37,) (this has been sought avidly by science since approx. AD 1850.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]2) To destroy the earth by degradation of all means. (This has accelerated since the start of the Industrial Revolution.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]3) To destroy Israel. (This has increased in intensity since the 2nd world war.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]4) To destroy faith in God/ Christ. (Satan is permitted to do his best/worst, to kill or prevent belief, faith, or love in Christ!)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]1) Satan has been trying to obtain the knowledge of Creation from the beginning, and is behind the work of Darwin and others to this purpose. He will not admit defeat, and will persevere in this up to the “[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Day of the Lord[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]”.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]2) The attempts to degrade the earth’s environment has accelerated since the Industrial Revolution in the UK, and is a strong sign of the times we are living in, accelerating towards the “[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Day of The Lord[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]”.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]3) This effort of Satan has been underway since Abram. As the promises were made by Jehovah God to His people, Satan’s efforts have increased, as was evidenced by the 2ndWorld War. The fact that the religious life of Israel is dominated by Pharisees, the same group that denied and organized Christ’s crucifixion via the Romans, does not help their situation, nor their denial of Satan as a powerful entity against God, and themselves! Satan’s purpose is to eliminate Israel, so that he can negate God’s promises to the Patriarchs! God has stated categorically that Israel will always exist, and Satan is extremely active in trying to thwart that Promise! Israel, since becoming a Nation again in 1948, are probably close to the OT promised culminations, but unfortunately, have yet to suffer more.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]They have yet to experience a false leader and situation, which will thankfully be short lived! [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]4) Satan’s current major thrust is to try to destroy the message of God in Christ. Since the Reformation in the 16th century he has lost his grip on the Word of God through the Roman Church, (although it has crept back to quite a large degree). He has quite successfully transferred corruption and confusion to many Protestant groups, to the extent that many people are held under one form of bondage or another! How has he done this? Quite simply by the same methods he used in the Roman case. He has used the minds of men to distort the Words of God, especially in Christ Jesus. The reformation ethos of re-examining the basic Principles of Doctrine were/are fertile ground for him![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Many new Groups and Sects that have proliferated since the Reformation have proved fertile ground for the wiles of Satan, and the confusion of mankind. More than one good man has said that Satan’s best recruiting ground is in the Pulpit, not in the fleshpots of the world! At the present, it is these people that Satan wants to add to his list of converts, which at present includes 1/3 of all heavens angels![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]How then to be sure of being in the Truth of God in Christ, and not be beguiled by Satan’s lies and subtlety?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]One of the most profound Truths of Jesus, is that He makes us free! The many and varied “rules” and complex “interpretations” of Satan’s preachers and teachers are so formulated, that even they can’t explain with clarity what they are talking about! Any person can go to the Bible, and prayerfully ask for understanding, for the love of God in Christ to be theirs! Any teacher that puts conditions on this, is not in Truth![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Any teacher or Group that states that the Israel of the Old Testament has not got a future, and have been disowned by Jehovah God and are replaced by the “Church”, are not telling the truth, and should be ignored. This teaching is sometimes linked to that of “Election”, and states that we have no choice in the matter of Salvation, only those “selected by God” are “Elect” and “Foreknown”. For more on this subject see: [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Is Our Freewill Of Value Or Is Everything Predestined?[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt](Separate study)[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Calvinist "Works" Teaching[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] (Separate study)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Any teacher or Group that try to use words to bamboozle the seeker, and any form of threat or insult, should be ignored; and the seeker can rest assured in the simple message of Christ Jesus, that all who believe in Him will have eternal life (John 3:16)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]By these methods, the seeker will find peace and Salvation in Jesus the Christ of Almighty God; and by reading the Bible, as a friend, will come to know more of the Mind of Christ/God![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]There is no doubt that our Lord is the most gentle Saviour, but Christ (The Anointed of Jehovah) has to deal with the evil of which most of us are unaware, and in the timing of Jehovah (Rev. 6,) that dealing leading to the ultimate conquering of Satan is underway. In that context, Satan expected the victory when Christ died on the accursed tree, but instead Christ gained victory over death, and became the first fruit of propitiation (the saved) to the Father, (Jehovah God). So Satan’s plans and motivations will come to nothing eventually![/SIZE]

 

[Purity]

you were not careful Floyd.

The verse you were quoting has context and meaning and in your machine gun approach shot up every verse which you think speaks to this subject.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8)

Where does sin come from?
What sinned from the beginning?
In what was God manifested?
From what did these works originate from?

Floyd - slow down and work through the verse you quoted - consider the questions and think about other Scriptures which help you in answering these questions.

Floyd, you are hurting yourself by mistreating the Word of God in such a manner.

Look at 1 John 3:8 and read the verses around this one to better understand what John is teaching.

He is stating "sin is of the false accuser" that this false accuser sinned in the beginning.

He that 1. committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil 2. sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the 3. Son of God was manifested, that he might 4. destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8)

1. Where does sin come from?
2. What sinned from the beginning?
3. In what was God manifested?
4. From what did these works originate from?

You don't need to answer now - mediate on this for a while and let your mind travel through the Scripture's - I am reluctant to provide them while you are in such an obtuse state of mind.

Purity

 

[Floyd]

you were not careful Floyd.

The verse you were quoting has context and meaning and in your machine gun approach shot up every verse which you think speaks to this subject.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8)

Where does sin come from?
What sinned from the beginning?
In what was God manifested?
From what did these works originate from?

Floyd - slow down and work through the verse you quoted - consider the questions and think about other Scriptures which help you in answering these questions.

Floyd, you are hurting yourself by mistreating the Word of God in such a manner.

Look at 1 John 3:8 and read the verses around this one to better understand what John is teaching.

He is stating "sin is of the false accuser" that this false accuser sinned in the beginning.

He that 1. committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil 2. sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the 3. Son of God was manifested, that he might 4. destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8)

1. Where does sin come from?
2. What sinned from the beginning?
3. In what was God manifested?
4. From what did these works originate from?

You don't need to answer now - mediate on this for a while and let your mind travel through the Scripture's - I am reluctant to provide them while you are in such an obtuse state of mind.

Purity

Flattery will get no response Purity.
Your approach is fast approaching a blank wall.
Your defence of Satan in the past has left me cold; the avenue you are approaching is not valid; and your demand is laughable.
You need to read all that has been given you.
Floyd.

 

[JoJoRoss]

Thank you for caring!

Only one small itsy bitsy problem, ie, we don't have the original inspired Autographs, ie, "the Inspried Word of God," ie, we have only translated Bibles that are exrememly interpretive at that.- do you have the one valid interpretation compared to all the diverse interpretations where each think they have the valid one.

Not picking on you and thank you again,

Old Jack's view

[SIZE=medium]No offense taken! Thanks for your input.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I believe if you get the Hebrew and Greek translations, you are able to get the God breathed interpretation. e-Sword is a great tool for this. I believe a majority of believers out there don’t do this and just go off what their pastor says. You have to dig in God’s Word to find His inspired truth. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Now if I had your reasoning, how can I believe anything in the bible? I think God can hold His truths on paper despite man’s fiddling with His Word. You just have to dig a little more with the Hebrew and Greek and use the Holy Spirit to guide you. How would we know God's truth without His Word? Again trust God (His Word) not men:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Psalm 118:8-It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=medium]Gods Peace,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]JoJo[/SIZE]

 

[shturt678]

Thank you again JoJo

[SIZE=medium][/SIZE]

No offense taken! Thanks for your input.

[SIZE=medium]I believe if you get the Hebrew and Greek translations, you are able to get the God breathed interpretation. e-Sword is a great tool for this. I believe a majority of believers out there don’t do this and just go off what their pastor says. You have to dig in God’s Word to find His inspired truth. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Now if I had your reasoning, how can I believe anything in the bible? I think God can hold His truths on paper despite man’s fiddling with His Word. You just have to dig a little more with the Hebrew and Greek and use the Holy Spirit to guide you. How would we know God's truth without His Word? Again trust God (His Word) not men:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Psalm 118:8-It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=medium]Gods Peace,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]JoJo[/SIZE]

Using the Interlinears does reduce all the extremely diverse interpretations down to only diverse interpretations along with Lexicons of course, ie, good job!

The only way one can get a "God breathed" interpretation is to allow the Scriptures to explain Scritprues (IIPet.1:20, 21 - the Holy Ghost interprets) in light of ICor.12:10 as our Lord set it up waaay back. The only problem is we cannot trust those entrusted knowing the ancient languages, and we have to dig in individually.

First and foremost since God is the one that leads one to the "truth" then all we do is have to have an agape for that "truth" it would seem to me (IIThess.2:10b)?

Old Jack that appreciates your input.

 

[JoJoRoss]

Using the Interlinears does reduce all the extremely diverse interpretations down to only diverse interpretations along with Lexicons of course, ie, good job!

The only way one can get a "God breathed" interpretation is to allow the Scriptures to explain Scritprues (IIPet.1:20, 21 - the Holy Ghost interprets) in light of ICor.12:10 as our Lord set it up waaay back. The only problem is we cannot trust those entrusted knowing the ancient languages, and we have to dig in individually.

First and foremost since God is the one that leads one to the "truth" then all we do is have to have an agape for that "truth" it would seem to me (IIThess.2:10b)?

Old Jack that appreciates your input.

I agree on all points. Your reasoning sits well with me Old Jack

Gods Peace,

JoJo

 

[Purity]

Flattery will get no response Purity.
Your approach is fast approaching a blank wall.
Your defence of Satan in the past has left me cold; the avenue you are approaching is not valid; and your demand is laughable.
You need to read all that has been given you.
Floyd.

No flattery here Floyd! Simply trying to open your mind just a little, but it appears its stuck. Your reasons for not examining 1 John 3:8, a verse which you quoted, reveals your confirmation bias.

Those questions are there to see if you can in fact open the Word of God and not screen dump another's work.

I will leave the post with you but next time you quote a verse take care that you have taken the time to understand it, its context and application.

God bless your reading
Purity

 

[shturt678]

I agree on all points. Your reasoning sits well with me Old Jack

Gods Peace,

JoJo

Always did like those Californians,

Old transplanted Washingtononian to Hawaii Jack

 

[Purity]

This still sits with you.

:blink: you were not careful Floyd.

The verse you were quoting has context and meaning and in your machine gun approach shot up every verse which you think speaks to this subject.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8)

Where does sin come from?
What sinned from the beginning?
In what was God manifested?
From what did these works originate from?

Floyd - slow down and work through the verse you quoted - consider the questions and think about other Scriptures which help you in answering these questions.

See how you go.
Purity

Unwittingly this subject is closely related to the Trinity as you may see

Your inference here is also noted Old Jack.

What in affect you are saying is because one bares a divine title this must make them God? Am I right to assume this as your inference here?

A Unitarians position is that Christ is a divinely appointed representative of God and bears God's titles just like the example of the angel of God did in OT times.

If you disagree with this then please explain to us how being given a divine title immediately makes them God.

Puritu

Old Jack?