Deleted

[Lifelong_sinner]

Deleted

 

[farouk]

How would most of you react to a pastor or elder telling you that you werent saved, or that you were condemned?

John 3.18: "...he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

 

[Angelina]

How would most of you react to a pastor or elder telling you that you werent saved, or that you were condemned?

I think that I would leave that up to God to decide. You know within yourself if you are actually saved or not. No-one can tell you that because it's your relationship with God. Jm2c

 

[ChristisGod]

How would most of you react to a pastor or elder telling you that you werent saved, or that you were condemned?

It would depend on the reasons .

 

[Mantis]

No bueno. He has no idea if a person is saved.

 

[ChristisGod]

Well, i guess i was just asking in general, but for arguments sake, lets say a man comes forward and admits to having an affair with the church secretary, would it be ok then?

There are biblical principles that apply to this scenario.

Matthew 18
“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

1 Corinthians 5
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.

The goal is always for repentance of sin, restoration and forgiveness as we this is what happened below as Paul attests to in his 2nd letter to them about the situation if sexual immorality in the church.

2 Corinthians 2
So I made up my mind that I would not make another painful visit to you. 2 For if I grieve you, who is left to make me glad but you whom I have grieved? 3 I wrote as I did, so that when I came I would not be distressed by those who should have made me rejoice. I had confidence in all of you, that you would all share my joy. 4 For I wrote you out of great distress and anguish of heart and with many tears, not to grieve you but to let you know the depth of my love for you.

Forgiveness for the Offender
5 If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you to some extent—not to put it too severely. 6 The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient. 7 Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. 9 Another reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. 10 Anyone you forgive, I also forgive. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, 11 in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.

FYI- I had to do this one time with my own sister and we were best friends and I was a leader in the church at the time where we both fellowshipped together. I cut off my relationship and my kids and hers did not see each other until she repented. So just like the above situation fellowship was restored as was our relationship personally and within the body. This was 35 years ago.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Cassandra]

i get this answer more than i like, and it confuses me. How can a pastor and the elders run and keep a congregation together if they just let anyone in to the fold? I’ve never understood this, there has to be someone keeping the wolves out. If not the pastor and elders, than who?

Wheat and tares.

Matt 13:28-30 " 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

 

[ChristisGod]

dude, that had to be rough. Did the kids understand what was going on?

No they were to young at the time but thankfully it was all resolved in 2 weeks

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Well, i guess i was just asking in general, but for arguments sake, lets say a man comes forward and admits to having an affair with the church secretary, would it be ok then?

That has absolutely NOTHING to do with Salvation....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

It would depend on the reasons .

One reason....one reason ONLY—- Lifelong UNBELIEF

Believers , even murderers like Moses ,David and Paul are Saved because of their Faith in the Promises Of God.... just like Abraham....just like me and just like you

 

[BloodBought 1953]

How would most of you react to a pastor or elder telling you that you werent saved, or that you were condemned?

It’s actually very simple to determine whether some body is “ Condemned” or not...one does not have to be a pastor or an elder to figure it out ....

The Bible say that there is “ NO CONDEMNATION” for those who are * IN* Christ Jesus .....It just goes to figure that if you are NOT “ in Christ Jesus” , you are a Lost person.....

So the question becomes, how does one KNOW and reveal to others that he is “ In Christ?”

Just ask the question—- “ What think ye
of Christ?”

If a person says the Jesus never existed...he is
Lost ....if one says that Jesus was a “ good and wise man” —and that ONLY— he is Lost .....If one says that Jesus was * A* son of god, as opposed to saying that Jesus is * THE* Son Of God, that man is Lost also....

On the other hand, if a person says with his Mouth that “ Jesus is Lord (God in the Flesh) and Believes That “God raised Him from the Dead” —— THAT man is Saved and he can “Never come under Condemnation”...

 

[BloodBought 1953]

So please explain that given the amount of people who say and believe that, they still arent saved?? I would go so far as to say that i bet you cant find 10 people on this forum who are active that are saved.
I know i’d struggle to name 10.

Anybody in here that has the Holy Spirit in them is Saved.....My opinion means absolutely Nothing.....All I can do is go to what Jesus said, using Paul as His Spokesman .....How does one know if he has that Holy Spirit within them ?
“ NO MAN can say,” Jesus is Lord” ( God in flesh) without having the Holy Spirit within them “.....That does not exactly set up the “ highest bar” that some would prefer, but nevertheless , that is the Biblical Requirement that shows that you are Saved.....

 

[ChristisGod]

It’s actually very simple to determine whether some body is “ Condemned” or not...one does not have to be a pastor or an elder to figure it out ....

The Bible say that there is “ NO CONDEMNATION” for those who are * IN* Christ Jesus .....It just goes to figure that if you are NOT “ in Christ Jesus” , you are a Lost person.....

So the question becomes, how does one KNOW and reveal to others that he is “ In Christ?”

Just ask the question—- “ What think ye
of Christ?”

If a person says the Jesus never existed...he is
Lost ....if one says that Jesus was a “ good and wise man” —and that ONLY— he is Lost .....If one says that Jesus was * A* son of god, as opposed to saying that Jesus is * THE* Son Of God, that man is Lost also....

On the other hand, if a person says with his Mouth that “ Jesus is Lord (God in the Flesh) and Believes That “God raised Him from the Dead” —— THAT man is Saved and he can “Never come under Condemnation”...

Well one cannot deny this and be saved.


Joel 2:32
32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Will be delivered;
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who escape,
As the Lord has said,
Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.


Here we see Paul quote this OT passage about YHWH and apply it to Jesus who is the one and only Lord according to the N.T.


Romans 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."


So a person must confess Jesus is YHWH(Lord) to be saved. Confess means to agree with so the person confessing Jesus is Lord is in agreement that He is YHWH. Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord ( YHWH) will be saved.


To Confess

NT:3670 ‎o(mologe/w ‎homologeo (hom-ol-og-eh'-o);

Strong's Concordance

homologeó: to speak the same, to agree

Original Word: ὁμολογέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: homologeó
Phonetic Spelling: (hom-ol-og-eh'-o)
Definition: to speak the same, to agree
Usage: (a) I promise, agree, (b) I confess, (c) I publicly declare, (d) a Hebraism, I praise, celebrate.

3670 homologéō (from 3674 /homoú, "together" and 3004 /légō, "speak to a conclusion") – properly, to voice the same conclusion, i.e. agree ("confess"); to profess (confess) because in full agreement; to align with (endorse)



NT:3670

1. homologeo (‎o(mologe/w‎, NT:3670), lit., "to speak the same thing" (homos, "same," lego, "to speak"), "to assent, accord, agree with," denotes, (a) "to confess, declare, admit," John 1:20; e. g., Acts 24:14; Heb 11:13; (b) "to confess by way of admitting oneself guilty of what one is accused of, the result of inward conviction," 1 John 1:9; (c) "to declare openly by way of speaking out freely, such confession being the effect of deep conviction of facts," Matt 7:23; 10:32 (twice) and Luke 12:8 (see next par.); John 9:22; 12:42; Acts 23:8; Rom 10:9-10 ("confession is made"); 1 Tim 6:12 (RV); Titus 1:16; 1 John 2:23; 4:2,15; 2 John 7 (in John's epistle it is the necessary antithesis to Gnostic doceticism); Rev 3:5, in the best mss. (some have No. 2 here); (d) "to confess by way of celebrating with praise," Heb 13:15; (e) "to promise," Matt 14:7.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)


Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 3670: ὁμολογέω

ὁμολογέω, ὁμολογῶ; imperfect ὡμολόγουν; future ὁμολογήσω; 1 aorist ὡμολόγησα; present passive 3 person singular ὁμολογεῖται; (from ὁμόλογος, and this from ὁμον and λέγω); from (Sophocles and) Herodotus down;

1. properly, to say the same thing as another, i. e. to agree with, assent, both absolutely and with a dative of the person; often so in Greek writings from Herodotus down; hence,

2. universally, to concede; i. e.

a. not to refuse, i. e. to promise: τίνι τήν ἐπαγγελίαν, Acts 7:17 L T Tr WH (here R. V. vouchsafe); followed by an object. infinitive, Matthew 14:7 (Plato, Demosthenes, Plutarch, others).

b. not to deny, i. e. to confess; declare: joined with οὐκ ἀρνεῖσθαι, followed by direct discourse with recitative ὅτι, John 1:20; followed by ὅτι, Hebrews 11:13; τίνι τί, ὅτι, Acts 24:14; to confess, i. e. to admit or declare oneself guilty of what one is accused of: τάς ἁμαρτίας, 1 John 1:9 (Sir. 4:26).

3. to profess (the difference between the Latin profiteor (`to declare openly and voluntarily') and confiteor (`to declare fully,' implying the yielding or change of one's conviction; cf.pro fessio fidei, confessio peccatorum) is exhibited in Cicero, pro Sest. 51, 109), i. e. to declare openly, speak out freely (A. V. generally confess; on its construction see Buttmann, § 133, 7): (followed by an infinitive, εἰδέναι Θεόν, Titus 1:16); τίνι (cf. Buttmann, as above; Winer's Grammar, § 31, 1 f.) followed by direct discourse with ὅτι recitative, Matthew 7:23; one is said ὁμολογεῖν that of which he is convinced and which he holds to be true (hence, ὁμολογεῖν is distinguished from πιστεύειν in John 12:42; Romans 10:9f):

 

[MatthewG]

Hello Lifelong,

I would ask them, where do they get the authority to say who is condemned or not condemned?

Is not God the judge of individuals? Is it not God who gives the spirit when people believe in the death, burial and resurrection? Didn't Jesus come to save all people? When a man make a judgement and uses the bible and say this is the way it is and that is it, does that mean he is the final authority, or is God the final authority?

So if anyone told me I was saved or not saved or I was condemned or a heretic as a believer in the the Lord Jesus Christ? I wouldn't question my faith over a person and what they may say about me personally. Each individual prays and interacts with God on their own, without anyone between them, and to get to know God and to know the Lord Jesus, is beneficial to the soul (mind/will/emotion), following after Him, who is the King.

 

[Dropship]

How would most of you react to a pastor or elder telling you that you werent saved, or that you were condemned?

Hit them back with this verse-
Jesus said- "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned.." (Luke 6:37)

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Hit them back with this verse-
Jesus said- "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned.." (Luke 6:37)

I think that is wrong use of scripture.

 

[Mantis]

i get this answer more than i like, and it confuses me. How can a pastor and the elders run and keep a congregation together if they just let anyone in to the fold? I’ve never understood this, there has to be someone keeping the wolves out. If not the pastor and elders, than who?

Well maybe they can sense wolves but I doubt it. They are to feed the sheep but the tares will grow with the wheat. I know Jesus but I have no idea who is saved. I pray daily for my friends and family. Some of whom do speak of God from time to time but I have no idea if they are saved so I will pray for their salvation until I die(or until they are all church growing, Bible reading Christians but I will probably still pray for their salvation anyway!!).

 

[Mantis]

Well, i guess i was just asking in general, but for arguments sake, lets say a man comes forward and admits to having an affair with the church secretary, would it be ok then?

Everyone can fall to sin, even pastors. It doesn’t mean they are not saved. Everyone screws up and deserves a second chance. God will never leave or forsake us if we are faithful to confess known sins. He gives us second chances(and maybe many, many more chances).

 

[Behold]

I think that is wrong use of scripture.

Its ok to ask them if they have received Christ as their Savior.
Its more ok to ask them to explain "salvation", or "how did God save you".
And this way you can find out if they are born again, or born again and deceived, or not born again at all.


If they say......>"God chose me before the foundation of the world, because im the elect".

Then that person is not born again.
That person is a hyper calvinist , and is deeply deceived.


If they say...."i keep the commandments and try not to lose my faith, and i try to be like Christ".

Then this person is perhaps saved, but has "fallen from Grace" and now has no FAITH in Christ, to keep them saved.
They have broken faith.


If the person says...>>"i was saved by water baptism", or "by joining the Mormon or Catholic Church, or by becoming one of the 144,000"""..

Then this person is not born again, but they are very religious and they have been completely indoctrinated by their cult, to give all credit not to Christ on the Cross, for their salvation. but to their "church".

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Its ok to ask them if they have received Christ as their Savior.
Its more ok to ask them to explain "salvation", or "how did God save you".


If they say......>"he chose me before the foundation of the world, because im the elect".

Then that person is not born again.
That person is a hyper calvinist , and is deeply deceived.


If they say...."i keep the commandments and try not to lose my faith, and i try to be like Christ".

Then this person is perhaps saved, but has "fallen from Grace" and now has no FAITH in Christ, to keep them saved.
They have broken faith.


If the person says...>>"i was saved by water baptism", or "by joining the Mormon or Catholic Church"..

Then this person is not born again, but they are very religious and they have been trained by their cult to give all credit not to Christ on the Cross, for their salvation.

you’re another calvinist hater. Yet you cant see that it is the most correct doctrine, taken from paul himself in romans chpt 9.