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[Desire Of All Nations]

I think that I would leave that up to God to decide. You know within yourself if you are actually saved or not. No-one can tell you that because it's your relationship with God. Jm2c

The inherent problem with this theology is that the condition of someone's relationship with God isn't supposed to be based on their own conscience. Paul told the Christians of his day to make sure that they were in the faith and not just believe they were in the faith because Jer. 17 teaches that the human conscience is not a barometer for truth.

The Samaritan woman Jesus conversed with at the well is a fantastic example of how many people today delude themselves into thinking that they have a relationship with God. She tried to deceive Christ of all people by saying her people worshiped the true God for generations and that Jerusalem wasn't the headquarters of His work(Jhn 4:19-20), and Christ had to bluntly tell her that her people have spent generations worshiping a false god and in the wrong place(Jhn 4:22).

God does want a personal relationship with people, but unless it's done on His terms, the individual is simply fooling themselves that they have a relationship with God, or that whatever relationship they have with God is actually good. All of these denominations in professing Christianity are crystal clear evidence of the fact that too many religious people are like that Samaritan woman from Jhn 4: they want a relationship with God on their own terms, even while they claim to worship Him.

Just look at how all these denominations in professing Christianity exist, even in full opposition in 1 Cor. 1. Now if all of the denominations believe in the biblical God as they claim, none of the "Christian" denominations would currently exist. And yet they do, because they want to believe in a version of God that supports what they want to do or believe.

 

[dev553344]

How would most of you react to a pastor or elder telling you that you werent saved, or that you were condemned?

It's not a pastor or elder's power to pass judgment.

 

[Bob Estey]

How would most of you react to a pastor or elder telling you that you werent saved, or that you were condemned?

As for being saved, I always wonder what it is people think they are being saved from. The Lord's discipline can be harsh, and there is no escaping it, if that is the only way to get us to repent.

As for being condemned, I guess would say the same thing.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

As for being saved, I always wonder what it is people think they are being saved from. The Lord's discipline can be harsh, and there is no escaping it, if that is the only way to get us to repent.

As for being condemned, I guess would say the same thing.

let me guess, you dont believe in hell??

 

[Bob Estey]

let me guess, you dont believe in hell??

I believe hell is what we experience when we sin.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

I believe hell is what we experience when we sin.

unbelievable. You’ve never read the Bible, have you?
Hell is a real place, most will end up there.

 

[Bob Estey]

unbelievable. You’ve never read the Bible, have you?
Hell is a real place, most will end up there.

The trouble we can create for ourselves by sinning is quite real.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

The trouble we can create for ourselves by sinning is quite real.

im not denying that, but this aint hell. If you arent saved, you will end up in hell after you die.

 

[MatthewG]

What is hell like, Lifelong_sinner?

 

[Bob Estey]

im not denying that, but this aint hell. If you arent saved, you will end up in hell after you die.

I would think a child molester, spending his life in prison, where I've been told child molesters are treated worst of all, might wish he were in hell.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

What is hell like, Lifelong_sinner?

the worst, where the worm never dies and the smoke of your torment goes up forever. Imagine the worst pain you can imagine, then imagine it for an hour, then realize it’ll be like that for eternity, without end.
Revelation 14:11

 

[MatthewG]

Sounds terrible. Thank you for sharing, Lifelong_Sinner.

 

[teamventure]

As your "gospel", you'll generally preach... "commandment keeping, self effort, trying to be good, and water baptism", as your Gospel.
You wont ever give God the Credit for KEEPING YOU SAVED, and if you are embarrassed by a real believer who pointed out that you know nothing about the Cross, the blood atonement, or the finished work of Christ, you'll try to fake it, in about 2 posts, and then you'll be right back to the cult theology, same as a dog back to eat its own vomit.

That is a mischaracterization of people who believe you can lose your salvation.
I am not decided on the issue because scripture could lead a person either way.
You can't say that they are unsaved by default because that in itself would deny that Jesus can save and would leave you in a catch 22.

 

[teamventure]

Ive written 2 or 3 Threads here, that define : """ how to spot the heretic."""
Maybe they are still here...

Basically, if you are not saved, the first evidence is that you'll TEACH and RANT in public that you can "lose your salvation".
You'll have a almost compulsive obsession to keep trying to prove that, lie.

As your "gospel", you'll generally preach... "commandment keeping, self effort, trying to be good, and water baptism", as your Gospel.
You wont ever give God the Credit for KEEPING YOU SAVED, and if you are embarrassed by a real believer who pointed out that you know nothing about the Cross, the blood atonement, or the finished work of Christ, you'll try to fake it, in about 2 posts, and then you'll be right back to the cult theology, same as a dog back to eat its own vomit.

I went to a Wesleyan Arminian college and your description above did not fit anyone I knew there.

 

[GEN2REV]

i get this answer more than i like, and it confuses me. How can a pastor and the elders run and keep a congregation together if they just let anyone in to the fold? I’ve never understood this, there has to be someone keeping the wolves out. If not the pastor and elders, than who?

Why would they want to keep anyone out? They're all about bringing more members into the church constantly; they're all about the money.

Even if certain individuals aren't about money, they're pressured to bring, and welcome, newcomers as often as possible. That's their job.

It's not like the churches of old anymore. Not for a century or more now.

The world would be a very different place right now if churches were still all about Truth and catering to honest Christians only.

 

[GEN2REV]

One reason....one reason ONLY—- Lifelong UNBELIEF

Believers , even murderers like Moses ,David and Paul are Saved because of their Faith in the Promises Of God.... just like Abraham....just like me and just like you

I wouldn't call Moses a murderer, but I totally get that you would.

David and Paul, unfortunately, yes.

Moses simply punched a man that was beating a perceived relative of Moses'. There's no indication whatsoever there that he murdered the man in cold blood - intending his death.

 

[GEN2REV]

So please explain that given the amount of people who say and believe that, they still arent saved?? I would go so far as to say that i bet you cant find 10 people on this forum who are active that are saved.
I know i’d struggle to name 10.

So YOU (someone who claims to NOT be saved) know who's saved on an internet chat forum based on 2-dimensional characters they type on a lighted screen, but you're question is how could these church elders have any idea who, among their real-world church, is saved and who is not.

Hmmm.

 

[MatthewG]

All people have been saved from - Hell/Satan and his Demons/Sin (Jesus paid for it already), the Grave.

That is the victory of Christ for all people.

Those who choose to believe and follow after Christ they have a different life following Christ, than those who make the choice not to follow Him.

There are two destinations - One (those who are saved to the kingdom of heaven) being those who may enter into the Heavenly Jerusalem, and those who will be outside (those who are not saved to the kingdom of Heaven) the Heavenly Jerusalem according to Revelation 22.

The wrath of God was poured out on the Nation of Israel for killing the son of God in 70Ad, and everything has been taken care of by the Lord Jesus Christ and all that he has done, even if you do not believe it yourself.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

So YOU (someone who claims to NOT be saved) know who's saved on an internet chat forum based on 2-dimensional characters they type on a lighted screen, but you're question is how could these church elders have any idea who, among their real-world church, is saved and who is not.

Hmmm.

no the original question was who thought it ok for pastors/elders to tell a member that they arent saved. Personally, i think its great that they do. I wish more would be upfront and honest about that, but i have found i get a lot of pushback on that. Quite a few folk seem to think its not a pastor/elders job to call out people, which is odd to me. If its not theirs, then whose job is it to keep the congregation clean?

as to your 2nd question?? And im assuming it is a question, its all about numbers. The clear majority of mankind is going to hell. Overwhelmingly the majority. Heres a great example.
The world has roughly 7 billion people, and toughly 2 billion are christian. And lets assume all of those “christians” are actually saved, that means 5 billion people would goto hell right now if we all died today. That means roughly 28% could make it to Heaven, and that 72% would goto hell. Dude, thats not even close to half. So yea, when i say the majority of people are going to hell, i mean far above half are.

 

[ScottA]

How would most of you react to a pastor or elder telling you that you werent saved, or that you were condemned?

It is good to tell the truth, and sometimes the truth hurts. But it is better to edify, better to build up than to tear down.