Did God Need Jesus' Sacrifice to Make You Acceptable to Him?

[Stranger]

No, my dear.
Does it portray God as an angry, killing machine? So, no. :]

....was he portrayed as an angry killing machine? So, no.

A fair and honest question;
from direct, up-close and personal, intimate contact.
Does this confound good people that read the Bible? Yes, it does.
I am sorry for that...i can not explain it.

I do not worship a roadmap, nor an owner's or instruction manual...
the destination 'is the thing'.
Lemme use an analogy:
Once I have reached the Magic Kingdom, Disney World, in Kissimee, Fl...I leave the roadmap
in the car and enjoy!

So it is pretty impossible for me to ever debate what the roadmap says...But, I can
talk about my happiness...that's about it.
So it frustrates many nice people that want me to go back to my car in the parking lot
and discuss routes and various roadblocks on that map.

I am sorry in advance i don't fit some mold many people have that have their noses
still in the map...I'm happily on a ride delighting in it.
I will start a thread on that verse in my signature, good idea. So many
complicate this life and the the joys here, I find.

Was Jesus sacrifice an ignorant concept? Did it occur or is it just man's imagination?

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

-there is no need of some ostentatious, bloody torture

except that ppl need a scapegoat, yes. And all of your stuff here is buried in Scripture already, btw, it is there to find.
but see most ppl want to live forever, so they don't want to die, right, so you have to use a little stragedy or ppl won't hear you. The ego cannot abide itself as evil, iow, and just telling ppl to start from there would shut them down right away; because of course it is us who is the tyrant that thought in immature, jealous, angry, barbaric human ways

 

[bbyrd009]

Was Jesus sacrifice an ignorant concept? Did it occur or is it just man's imagination?

Stranger

the point is not whether it was valid or even needed or not, Stranger; the point is that it is we who needed that, and the "God needed it" is a cover story, that is penetrated when you understand "Who told you that you were naked?" and supported by a lot of other vv. There is an OT God, and a NT God, and God has not changed

 

[bbyrd009]

Was Jesus sacrifice an ignorant concept?

understand how "The Son of Man must be raised up like a Snake on a Pole in order to..." can be taken differently, iow. "This is what must happen for humans to accept and understand." Not "this Guy magically makes you right with God"
(unless you follow, iow, not just profess)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Fair question.
Many reasons. But, first,
-one would have to believe in the story of the Fall of Man in the Garden.
I don't.
-One would have to believe the Creator of the Universe, God, the brilliant Father Almighty, was some sort of Omnipresent all knowing Spiritual Being tyrant that thought in immature, jealous, angry, barbaric human ways.
I don't.
- without believing in the Garden story...man remains the beloved creation/son..pure, loved of the Father, even with all his mistakes.
-there is no need of some ostentatious, bloody torture

Anyone that has ever had a child or been in love knows unconditional love and forgiveness...
in fact....they know the place where there is no such thing as forgiveness, because the
wisdom love brings puts you in an enlightened, awakened state where there is never
an offense taken from the start. ( At least, I hope everyone has exp'd that place,geeze...)
And this is just from a little human...just think
how God does not think as the everyday
deluded human does.

There was no need for a 'savior' because there was nothing to be saved from...
But throughout time...God sent masters and teachers to remind the deluded lot of us...
where Home was, who we were...what we were a part of and why we were here.
Bread crumbs left by the Masters.

Now, did humanity slip into a sacrificial, blood-letting savage state of concepts so deeply that ONLY thinking a murder for their sake could awaken them
to their true state?
Even tho, God never lost sight of them, arms were always open,
they were always welcome to be in that state of Realization of the Kingdom?
It was only their forgetfulness of their True Selves and then, their made up primitive stories of some scary God that needed to be appeased because their was an earthquake rumbling?
Thus,'' Oooo, lets' kill lamb and make happy the mean God in Sky...''

Besides, I know God...and He is only love.

Now did He let the whole event happen...letting cause and effect take it's course in that
volatile political, savage climate? Sure,
because Men at that time believed in this 'cr*p'...
so maybe their hearts would open to Him...His Heart
that was always open from the get-go.

But, was it actually needed....no way....Did Jesus need someone to die
for him to be exalted to such a Consciousness?
No, he just knew God for what He was, remaining in the original state of knowing, aka Perfect Awareness...
which WE had forgotten. (and made up stories...like throwing virgins into volcanoes...)

So basically you are saying you do not believe the word of God and there is..."nothing to be saved from" ?? How deceived you are under a canopy of fantasy. What you need to be saved from is the fire of His presence. There is only one way that can happen...go into the ark; with is Christ. Your definition of love is not His. I can relate...I have been there underneath those same protection of lies. What I don't understand is how people claim one verse (that is appealing to their flesh) out of the word and then reject all others. Love is NOT someone giving us money to pay off our home. Love is someone kicking that false foundation we are trusting in out from underneath us so that the flesh FAILS. Here is love and you sneer at the distaste of it because it is offensive to your flesh:


Acts 2:29-33
[29] Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30] Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

[31] He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. [32] This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. [33] Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

David spoke of the resurrection of Christ....knowing and believing the fruit of his loins would raise up Christ to sit on his throne.

First you have to die to be reborn.
Spirit.

1 Peter 1:7-9 KJV
[7] That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: [8] Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: [9] Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

 

[101G]

Anyone that has ever had a child or been in love knows unconditional love and forgiveness...
in fact....they know the place where there is no such thing as forgiveness, because the
wisdom love brings puts you in an enlightened, awakened state where there is never
an offense taken from the start. ( At least, I hope everyone has exp'd that place,geeze...)
And this is just from a little human...just think
how God does not think as the everyday
deluded human does.

first thanks for the response. second, God is Spirit, third God is Just, and right. fourth, question. if your child killed your neighbor child, is it the Love you have for your child that he should go free?. would it be right to just jail your child?.... no, because your neighbor have the same right as you do. but your neighbor child is dead, so what is the right thing to do?. would God be a JUST God by letting your child go free or with just a few days in jail, would that be fair?. now if I say an eye for an eye your child would be dead also. if your son was killed, then there is just two children dead. but here is where the love of God comes in at. he allowed his son to die for all the son and daughters who are in this same exact same situation. else we all will be killing one another sons and daughters, and nothing being done about it. that's why God allowed his son to die. to stop the violence. but on top of this not only did he let his son die for your son and my son and all of our sons and daughters, but he raised his son up and willing, if you repent, he willing, and lovingly raise your son, or daughter up also. hence the reason for his death and resurrection, scripture, Romans 14:9 "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living". see God is not the God of the LIVING ONLY, but of the dead also. so that all sons and daughter may live.

I hope you understand, if not don't worry about it.

Peace in Christ Yeshua.

 

[Ally.s.j]

Well, I wasn't asking if you could, I was asking if God could have done it another way. My answer to that is no. Like I said, the sacrifice had to be born of a woman and without blemish, one who knew no sin. Since all have fallen short of Gods glory, then the sacrifice had to come from one made without hands. Therefore the only sacrifice that could be acceptable to God was from his only begotten son. To say that there was another way makes a moron out of God and the gospel null and void.

I said this way to many times. and a few dont get it. I know what scripture says about Christ I bought into it. I dont doubt it. I can go as far to say I walk in more faith than most Christians I know or spoke to in person or in online sites. I dont need convinsing as to what Jesus done and the value of that. I believe God can do any thing. If there was no Jesus. God would sort it another way. or He is very very limited. I dont think God is limited in any way. But a few do so that is up to them. Think were done you dont agree. Thats cool. I dont need you to think or believe what I believe.

 

[Ally.s.j]

so, i can agree with you here if the "other ways" are essentially what the Good Samaritan defines, even if he would say "Jesus? Never heard of him, and if he is Jewish, not interested in hearing about him." or iow, following another Name imo, "Love your neighbor." The Vineyard Owner with Two Sons is another reflection of this i guess. 1 John 3:7 is another, Dear children, don't let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous.

I dont understand a lot of your posts. sorry bro.

 

[Ally.s.j]

Pay attention. Go back to my post #150. I gave you three things that are impossible for God.

God cannot cease to be Himself. He cannot deny Himself. (2 Tim. 2:13) "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

Stranger

Hmmm You pay attention. You never gave me what I asked for. And that is two and both out of context. Can God sin yes He could but will not. If He can sin then He would deny Himself.

 

[Ally.s.j]

.
@bbyrd009
@Miss Hepburn

Please explain to me why you believe that the sacrifice of Christ was unnecessary?

See no one said that. You did. In your thinking. We said that God could have done it another way if He wanted. Or He would be very limited. And would not be the God we know.

 

[Nomad]

Are you laboring under the impression that God needed Christ's sacrifice in order to make you saved or acceptable to Him? Because that is a lie, ok, straight from hell and pastors. If you think you have some verse that supports this notion, then post it and let's see.

Your post is quite disturbing to say the least. You want a "verse?" How about all of them? Redemption via substitutionary atonement is the central theme of Scripture. It's prefigured throughout the OT and realized + expounded in the NT. It permeates all of Scripture and is certainly no lie from hell. Alas, here are some "verses" demonstrating the need for Christ's sacrifice.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death...

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

 

[101G]

The two DEATHS
1 John 3:16 "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren". the Lord Jesus laid down his life. ok, what life did he lay down? the NATURAL life of blood. the body God shared himself in is "HIS" body, (possession). that life he owned (Natural life). and that was the life he dwelled in. John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth". and when God/Jesus died, it was that NATURAL life of BLOOD that he gave.

Peace in Christ Yeshua.

 

[bbyrd009]

I dont understand a lot of your posts. sorry bro.

ah, sorry, what other concept might God have used to communicate with us--in the way that i am failing with you lol--other than the one that we evidence needing, iow.

 

[bbyrd009]

Your post is quite disturbing to say the least.

well i would have put it differently now, that is way too inflammatory i guess. Stress the God needed there if you would

How about all of them? Redemption via substitutionary atonement is the central theme of Scripture. It's prefigured throughout the OT and realized + expounded in the NT. It permeates all of Scripture and is certainly no lie from hell. Alas, here are some "verses" demonstrating the need for Christ's sacrifice.

note that the need for the sacrifice is not being challenged, however; just where the need was, as your vv even verify

 

[Job]

2 Corinthians 4
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

.

 

[tabletalk]

Fair question.
Many reasons. But, first,
-one would have to believe in the story of the Fall of Man in the Garden.
I don't.
-One would have to believe the Creator of the Universe, God, the brilliant Father Almighty, was some sort of Omnipresent all knowing Spiritual Being tyrant that thought in immature, jealous, angry, barbaric human ways.
I don't.
- without believing in the Garden story...man remains the beloved creation/son..pure, loved of the Father, even with all his mistakes.
-there is no need of some ostentatious, bloody torture

Anyone that has ever had a child or been in love knows unconditional love and forgiveness...
in fact....they know the place where there is no such thing as forgiveness, because the
wisdom love brings puts you in an enlightened, awakened state where there is never
an offense taken from the start. ( At least, I hope everyone has exp'd that place,geeze...)
And this is just from a little human...just think
how God does not think as the everyday
deluded human does.

There was no need for a 'savior' because there was nothing to be saved from...
But throughout time...God sent masters and teachers to remind the deluded lot of us...
where Home was, who we were...what we were a part of and why we were here.
Bread crumbs left by the Masters.

Now, did humanity slip into a sacrificial, blood-letting savage state of concepts so deeply that ONLY thinking a murder for their sake could awaken them
to their true state?
Even tho, God never lost sight of them, arms were always open,
they were always welcome to be in that state of Realization of the Kingdom?
It was only their forgetfulness of their True Selves and then, their made up primitive stories of some scary God that needed to be appeased because their was an earthquake rumbling?
Thus,'' Oooo, lets' kill lamb and make happy the mean God in Sky...''

Besides, I know God...and He is only love.

Now did He let the whole event happen...letting cause and effect take it's course in that
volatile political, savage climate? Sure,
because Men at that time believed in this 'cr*p'...
so maybe their hearts would open to Him...His Heart
that was always open from the get-go.

But, was it actually needed....no way....Did Jesus need someone to die
for him to be exalted to such a Consciousness?
No, he just knew God for what He was, remaining in the original state of knowing, aka Perfect Awareness...
which WE had forgotten. (and made up stories...like throwing virgins into volcanoes...)

You said:
"-One would have to believe the Creator of the Universe, God, the brilliant Father Almighty, was some sort of Omnipresent all knowing Spiritual Being tyrant that thought in immature, jealous, angry, barbaric human ways.
I don't."

I know you don't believe the Scriptures, but this is a verse which shows that you also don't believe the "Creator of the Universe, God" :

(from Exodus 34) 13. But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images 14. (for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God),.."

 

[Helen]

@Miss Hepburn QUOTE:- You said:
"-One would have to believe the Creator of the Universe, God, the brilliant Father Almighty, was some sort of Omnipresent all knowing Spiritual Being tyrant that thought in immature, jealous, angry, barbaric human ways.
I don't."

-----
He IS one Brilliant Father Almighty, and Omnipresent all knowing Being...yet He is NO tyrant that thinks in barbaric ways.

Isaiah 55 8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."

We think with a peanut brain...nothing He did in the OT is wasted, which seems barbaric to us...we have not seen the end of the story yet.
His full Plan is not unfolded yet. To think like that is to judge God...it is the fool who does that. This short moment in time for everyone who has ever lived...is nothing compared to what He has in store.

 

[Helen]

ah, sorry, what other concept might God have used to communicate with us--in the way that i am failing with you lol--other than the one that we evidence needing, iow.

Come come Mark...don't be shy..you sorry? We know you deliberately hide your thoughts in words hard to understand.
I always have to read your posts..then re-read them, to see what you are trying 'not' to say!!

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Was Jesus sacrifice an ignorant concept? Did it occur or is it just man's imagination?

What is an ignorant concept is that God needed this to happen...as if He needed this for anything.
Would you need it? Have a son go thru that in order to forgive what his older brother did years before?
Would that idea make sense to you?

Did Jesus die on a Cross? I've never thought that it didnt.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Tabletalk....on jealousy..my take, OK? Just how I see it.
Jealousy for God is so innocent, cute, precious and sweet...without guile of
any sort..just like when my German Shepherd nudges the cat out of the way when I pet her.
Not the angry spouse that kills or divorces his wife jealousy.

So I should not have included that...but then, we wouldn't be having this
conversation! ;]