Did God Need Jesus' Sacrifice to Make You Acceptable to Him?

[Miss Hepburn]

Hi 101G...RE your example:
my love for my son...a murderer, would not change.
His repentance would make my heart swell in thankfulness.
His ignorance if he was not sorry would not change my love for him, tho.
Would it anyone?

My dog nipped my neighbor's show poodle before an event.
Mine darted on a leash and broke her new collar I got online, even.
It cost hundreds for the Vet bill...(I made $400 Cuz friends kept throwing money my way just mentioning it!)
Did my love stop ? No...but we go out the back door now and go south..a different path.
My heart remained open...and I'm just a human with a pea brain.

I also sat with a murderer in Key West, a bad drug deal..I was the first one he confessed to...who knows if anyone came after me...he cried in deep repentance
...God imbued me supernaturally with His Love for the man. It flowed through me like beams of light going thru me
from Heaven...I think angels were there!
The love of God even when we make huge mistakes
is almost beyond imagination..of course not for me now...my mind doesn't even think
in terms of punishment or justice...just repentance of the heart.

I refer to the criminal on Jesus' right, often, as the example of love and immediate
transport to Paradise...I do believe Jesus was a representation of our Father...and His wishes.
Did Jesus have to die before he made that promise to him?

My questons are mostly rhetorical.

 

[Stranger]

What is an ignorant concept is that God needed this to happen...as if He needed this for anything.
Would you need it? Have a son go thru that in order to forgive what his older brother did years before?
Would that idea make sense to you?

Did Jesus die on a Cross? I've never thought that it didnt.

Why is it an ignorant concept? Based on what?

I am not God. God's ways are higher than my ways. Do you agree?

Was Jesus sacrifice an ignorant concept?

Stranger

 

[Nomad]

well i would have put it differently now, that is way too inflammatory i guess. Stress the God needed there if you would

note that the need for the sacrifice is not being challenged, however; just where the need was, as your vv even verify

As long as God desires to redeem/reconcile humanity, the "need" for substitutionary atonement cuts both ways. We "need" Christ's sacrifice to cleanse us from sin. God "needs" Christ's sacrifice to satisfy his own standard of justice. For God to deny his own standards would be tantamount to denying His own nature.

2Ti 2:13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Why is it an ignorant concept? Based on what?
I am not God. God's ways are higher than my ways. Do you agree?
Was Jesus sacrifice an ignorant concept?

Stranger

Hey,if you don't see it as some wacko concept that a Being of infinite Love would even think, then I would be at a loss of words.
God isn't a scary Star Trek Being.

God's ways are not our ways...nor His thoughts...agreed.
Was his sacrifice an ignorant concept? Didn't I answer that, from my pov, already?
Ok...again...the idea God needed it was.
And please remember, anyone reading
this...if you want to believe it was needed...I have no qualms with that.
We are all in the place in this moment that is right for us.
Nomad and a million others are in a whole different place.

Now, do I know it upsets people in different ways...sure...maybe I shouldn't
have said anything.

Oh, I forgot...based on my personal experience with God...so not from someone else's perspective.

 

[Stranger]

Hey,if you don't see it as some wacko concept that a Being of infinite Love would even think, then I would be at a loss of words.
God isn't a scary Star Trek Being.

God's ways are not our ways...nor His thoughts...agreed.
Was his sacrifice an ignorant concept? Didn't I answer that, from my pov, already?
Ok...again...the idea God needed it was.
And please remember, anyone reading
this...if you want to believe it was needed...I have no qualms with that.
We are all in the place in this moment that is right for us.
Nomad and a million others are in a whole different place.

Now, do I know it upsets people in different ways...sure...maybe I shouldn't
have said anything.

Oh, I forgot...based on my personal experience with God...so not from someone else's perspective.

You still didn't explain why it is an ignorant concept? Based on what?

You agree God's ways are not our ways, or His thoughts, our thoughts. Then why are you opposed to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ? And, what do you base your understanding of God on?

If God's ways are not your ways, then how do you interpret your personal experience? And, if someone else's experience is different than yours, who is right? You? Them? Doesn't matter?

It appears that your knowledge of God comes only from you. Anyone can claim that.

Stranger

 

[Richard_oti]

hmm, i see a reflection here of "How long, oh Lord, must we wait" by the saints under the altar. Iow there is forgiveness for past deeds done in ignorance, but there is also the pov of those sinned against to consider. Of course Joan of Arc or Stephen are not asking "how long," as they have forgiven already--the "how long must we wait" thing is thus revealed as a false perspective imo.

(but i note that i went a diff direction here from what you intimated, surely there are other good perspectives to be derived from that "aforetime" also)

Interesting perspective. But that's what I like about you. I could make 5 leading statements, and you are likely to go the other way in at least 3 of them, if not 4.

 

[Richard_oti]

God isn't a scary Star Trek Being.

What!?!?! Ok, that's it, you must now surrender your Trekkie membership card. You have completely disillusioned me, <chuckle>

Was his sacrifice an ignorant concept?

As Romans puts it: It was to declare His righteousness. Not that he needed it. It was for our benefit.

<snip>

 

[Ally.s.j]

God barbaric? Hardly. Thats what you say about someone you dont know. If you know God you know He is not barbaric. He also needs no one to defend Him. There is a sowing and reaping. Its not barbaric. From Adam there was sowing and reaping.

 

[mjrhealth]

What was it Winston Churchill quoted in WW2,

Never was so much owed by so many to so few

and here we had one man, willing to become sin, and give up His life for all of mankind.

Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

we should not belittle so great a sacrifice, He did it for you.....

 

[charity]

Please explain to me why you believe that the sacrifice of Christ was unnecessary?

@bbyrd009 reply#208
@Miss Hepburn reply#216

Thank you for your responses. I am not finding them easy to understand: for your form of expression is new to me, as are your thoughts. I therefore find myself unable to respond adequately. However what I can say is that I believe that the sacrificial offering of Christ was a necessity, for he took the penalty of our sin upon Himself and died in our place, that we may have life everlasting who are trusting in the efficacy of His finished work. (Ephesians 1)

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
charity

 

[Miss Hepburn]

You still didn't explain why it is an ignorant concept? Based on what?You agree God's ways are not our ways, or His thoughts, our thoughts. Then why are you opposed to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ? And, what do you base your understanding of God on?
If God's ways are not your ways, then how do you interpret your personal experience? And, if someone else's experience is different than yours, who is right? You? Them? Doesn't matter?
It appears that your knowledge of God comes only from you. Anyone can claim that.

Stranger

My knowledge comes only from me? Where else should it come from?
Hearsay?

Ignorant, as you know doesn't mean stupid, but uninformed, uneducated about something. A concept is not a truth..but an idea, opinion.
Early man had an ignorant concept about the earth being flat.
When he saw the earth, some made calculations I guess, he then knew it was round....
Also that it wasn't the center of the solar system.
So, primitive minds thought God was a scary anthropomorphic 'Being' of some sort.
Many still think in his way...thus, that 'He' wanted, needed, was happy and pleased with any and all blood sacrifices.
So far, so good?...I mean I'm trying my best to "explain", again.

When a person finally knows and understands God...he then knows God never ever could want or need or be pleased with such atrocities, nor could God do such atrocities....but was blamed for atrocities...just as early man man thought a comet was a harbinger of doom or you would sail off the edges of earth.

Please, please, I beg you...Do not believe me.
Find out for yourself, personally.
Be still....for hours...for days and decades...ask if this is true...
"Lord, are you only love? Are the stories men have told misconceptions of You.
Have I always been able to join You, know You without the murder of Jesus?
Were You always waiting for us to just open our eyes with no need of blood shed?"

If I am wrong...gee, my mistake was saying God is only glorious, kind, patient, unconditional love and could never have done or said the cruel things He is blamed for
under the rationale it was 'just' and it is His Nature...when His Nature is only pure eternal love....not the kind that tortures under the guise it will take away some one else's sins...and satisfies Him now.

Third time, btw...I base my understanding from direct contact from, with God...which many think is some impossible thing...another uninformed, uneducated idea.

Be still....ask.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Thank you for your responses. I am not finding them easy to understand: for your form of expression is new to me, as are your thoughts. I therefore find myself unable to respond adequately. However what I can say is that I believe that the sacrificial offering of Christ was a necessity, for he took the penalty of our sin upon Himself and died in our place, that we may have life everlasting who are trusting in the efficacy of His finished work. (Ephesians 1)Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you! I 100% understand it would be hard. It's a new thing I'm saying, when millions and millions for centuries believed something else! Were told something else!
I know...I was one of them!! I believed the logic that God 'needed' blood; that someone or
something (a lamb) could take away the sins of another.

This is the thing, tho, charity...you don't have to believe a word I say or believe.
You are fine believing what you do.
Your heart is all that is important...and it's obvious it is doing great!
Stay on your course.

I was shocked when I 'got'....it was 'us' that strayed away so far, we forgot
even Who our Father even was! Where we came from...so Man blamed God,
made up stories that got written down... blamed, for so many many
things that He had nothing to do with....all He wants is our love...that is all
He ever wanted and still waits for.
He is absolute Pure Puppy Love...as pure as a baby...and His desire for our love is
bottomless....oh my...He will wait forever for every single last one of us to
acknowledge Him and truly know Him...I digressed...

But, that is my experience...each person should have their own.
You are fine right where you're understanding is, my dear.
I should never have brought this up here.

 

[bbyrd009]

Come come Mark...don't be shy..you sorry? We know you deliberately hide your thoughts in words hard to understand.
I always have to read your posts..then re-read them, to see what you are trying 'not' to say!!

really? hmm, i'm aware of maybe doing that more on a subject where i disagree with a poster than someplace like there? Where i can't have any clue? Most of the time i'm just lobbing grenades though lol, i don't know anything

 

[bbyrd009]

God "needs" Christ's sacrifice to satisfy his own standard of justice.

ha, then how could He possibly walk in the Garden with two naked sinners? What changed?

 

[bbyrd009]

It appears that your knowledge of God comes only from you. Anyone can claim that.

wadr it doesn't appear we agree much better arguing from the Book, either lol. You would surely characterize the Creation account as a "fall," right? The "fall of man?" But you can't find that in Scripture imo; you have to assume it, make it up, basically

Let me fall into the hands of the LORD,
for his mercy is very great; but do not let me fall into human hands ...

therefore tell those who cover it with whitewash that it is going to fall. ...
Tell these whitewashers that their wall will soon fall down.

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! ... Did
God's people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not!

So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! ... If
you think you are standing strong, be careful not to fall. ...

wow, that turned into an interesting study, particularly this last one. Seems kinda strange to caution the one who is actually trying to stand firm...or at least thinks they are standing firm...huh. Anyway, maybe you could show me "the fall of man," i can't find it anywhere

 

[Miss Hepburn]

What do people think is God's "standard of justice "?
Seems it may be if you don't tow the line...He kills you.
If you are pure of heart He kills you... for others that didn't tow the line.
I mean, according to the Bible.
I say this with all seriousness.

Now, is God in a place where there is no space and time and we are an ant
terrarium project?
"Darn, these ants are boring...toss 'em...let's see what the brown ants do."
I dunno, is that the general belief here?

If I came from outer space and read all these beliefs I would
think This God was a tosser
I said that for the Brits here, hahahaha!

 

[bbyrd009]

Interesting perspective. But that's what I like about you. I could make 5 leading statements, and you are likely to go the other way in at least 3 of them, if not 4.

ah, thats prolly because i wasn't sure where you were headed there, so i just posted what popped into my head to keep the thread alive. Because your ref here strikes me as the best chance of shooting this down, tbh.

what you mean by "aforetime is interesting" there might bring this out, so i'll repost the vv, in NIV this time, which i dislike, but it maybe clarifies a little better there, unless you object:
Romans 3
25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood--to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--

 

[bbyrd009]

What was it Winston Churchill quoted in WW2,

Never was so much owed by so many to so few

and here we had one man, willing to become sin, and give up His life for all of mankind.

Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

we should not belittle so great a sacrifice, He did it for you.....

i am all for that, and i suggest that the Sacrifice is diminished when improper and even satanic motives are attached to it, such as "God cannot tolerate you like you are, God needs you to do something first," which are simply lies. The perspective is warped, and God is returned to a Star Trek Being, an OT God iow.

God is fine with you just like you are. Now, you may not be fine with God, but that is a different subject, see.

It is us that is separate from God; God is not separate from us.
We hide from God, God does not hide from us.

And imo it is nothing short of sin to suggest that anyone other than self needs Christ.
It is a path to disillusion with Christ, i am now following Christ because that is what God needs, instead of that being what i need. It is a way to follow the God of the OT. It even keeps Christ on the cross, in a way i guess i will not be able to show very easily, unless some inspiration or verse presents itself.

 

[bbyrd009]

What was it Winston Churchill quoted in WW2,

Never was so much owed by so many to so few

a great comparo imo, bc ol' Winston was presenting the pov of the world there, and of course he would not even be able to understand how much a believer does not need ppl who have been deceived as to what "service" means to go and kill other ppl in defense of their "rights." And yes, this is the exact same perspective we bring to God.

 

[bbyrd009]

Third time, btw...I base my understanding from direct contact from, with God...which many think is some impossible thing...another uninformed, uneducated idea.

well see, all you gotta do is convince ppl that the Book is the Word, and then any manifestation of Word will be discounted; nevermind that no one can demonstrate that Book = Word from the Book. Meeting Him in the air is the only way to meet Him, as it turns out

and your fruit confirms this, imo,
or it does not; and we are told to use no other standard, even though of course that is about all we use