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Did Jesus baptize with the Holy Spirit?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Shan Missions, Mar 2, 2008.

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  1. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    And by this you are assuming that Christ did not die before the thief died what if Christ died first then was the thief under baptism??
     
  2. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    Kriss,I understand what you said in your post. I believe most of what you stated. I also see that you still went around verse 5. This is where it states that the disciples would be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. This is what they waited for- THe BAPTISM. To say they were already baptized is saying they get a second baptism. Verse two shows that Jesus through the Holy Ghost gave commandments unto the apostles. This was not the Holy Ghost in the disciples. It was on Jesus. Jesus was already born of God. He did not have to get reborn. The Holy Ghost empowered Jesus to fulfill his ministry.To answer your question about the disciples, How they did the work they did during Jesus walk on the earth. The same way the old testament prophets did. The Holy Spirit came upon them, but my understanding is that it was not permanent until Christ died.
     
  3. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    (kriss;39318)
    And by this you are assuming that Christ did not die before the thief died what if Christ died first then was the thief under baptism??
    Even if Christ died first, He did not sent the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentecost.I would say he would be under the blood!
     
  4. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    And I have never said that a baptism did not occur after the Holy Ghost came upon them I have said that if baptisim is a belief and repentance causing a change of ones heart that the disciples already had this as did the thiefso the Holy Ghost had to also offer something diferent which was and Power this is not what happens a a normal baptisim. This was a Miracle And you are correct one does not need to be baptised twice so So how could this be the first baptismit was not it was the fullfillment of the promise to send the Holy spirit
     
  5. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Even if Christ died first, He did not sent the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentecost.I would say he would be under the blood!
    And how do you know this ?? Yes he was under the blood but if one is a believer and repents is he not changed that is baptised in the Name of Christ??
     
  6. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    How do I know this?? From scripture-Acts 1:5 again states That the baptism was not given until day of Pentecost. Will you please take the time to explain to me what you think this verse says.
     
  7. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    yes and that is exacty when the Holy Spirit appeared to them, on Pentecost day. And many believed and became baptised I have said this several times But it was not the spirit that baptised them it was belief and repentance an inner change that allowed the spirit to come unto them I dont think we are saying that much differnt I think maybe we just are not talking the same language.This is going in circles so much Im not sure where we are agreeing and not anymore.
     
  8. horsecamp

    horsecamp New Member

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    (Shan Missions;39036)
    Matthew 3:11 I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. John 1:33 I would not have known Him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, "the man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is He who will baptize with the Holy Spirit." John said that Jesus would baptize with Holy Spirit.But I don't see anywhere in the NT telling us that Jesus baptized any one with the Holy Spirit.Can someone tell?Thanks.
    in water baptism the above trueMathew 28:19 only in baptism does scripture connect water with the Holy spirit also with the Father and the Sonwater baptism is spoken of as a washing of rebirth and renewel by the Holy spirit Titus 3:5Even creation came about by Gods Holy Spirit and his powerful word and through simple earthly element we know as waterGenesis 1:1-2 ( 2 Peter 3:5simularly we also became a new creation by Gods all powerful word working through the waters of baptismread also 1 Peter 3:20-21We have been united with Christ in holy baptism.Galatians 3:26as it is written there truly is only one baptism just as there truly is only one Lord and one true faith.Ephesians 4:5
     
  9. Unorthodox Christian

    Unorthodox Christian New Member

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    Even if Christ died first, He did not sent the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentecost.I would say he would be under the blood!
    Was John Under the Blood when he Was Given the Holy Ghost upon hearing the Name of Jesus? In the Womb of Elizabeth
     
  10. waynemlj

    waynemlj New Member

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    Hi Shan Missions,This is a big question you asked, here, for sure!I can give you a quote to show you where Jesus apparently baptized His apostles with the Holy Spirit, but I will have to add that there is some mystery about this topic in my mind.This takes place after Jesus' Resurrection. John 20:21-22, "Jesus said to them, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.' And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit.' "Yet, we have this from Jesus to consider also. In Luke 24:49, "And behold I am sending the promise of the Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high."And we know that a special event took place that the Bible refers to as Pentecost. Acts 2:1-4, "When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them.And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance."My Bible Concordance gives various interpretations of this matter of Jesus baptizing with the Holy Spirit, none of which are worth mentioning here.But a note from my study Bible comes as close as anything I've been able to discover."The gift (when Jesus breathed on them...) is essential for the performance of the tasks given the disciples. The occasion is a foreshadowing of the fulness of the Spirit to be bestowed on the church at Pentecost."That's the best I can offer on this rather mysterious topic.A very good and thoughtful question you have posed here, Shan Missions!waynemlj
     
  11. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    (Unorthodox Christian;39378)
    Was John Under the Blood when he Was Given the Holy Ghost upon hearing the Name of Jesus? In the Womb of Elizabeth
    I saw this scripture after I posted, and also Luke 1:67 When Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost. Can you enlighten me on this?I believe the Old testament saints were saved by faith in the blood to come. It was by there faith that was counted unto them for righteousness. But these verses have troubled me.
     
  12. haanne

    haanne New Member

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    There is a lot I have to learn about the work of the Holy Spirit, Baptism etc. I learn by asking question. Some people get offensive when I ask questions, but this is how I learn. What I have come to learn this far is that there is more to the work of the Holy SPirit than I was taught. The Holy Spirit has always been even during creation. In the Old Testament the spirit came upon prophets to empower them for what God called them to do. But the Holy Spirit never entered a person until the work Christ-to reconcile us to the Father. It is through Christ all things are possible in the Spirit. The Scripture that I quoted before states that Christ had to die and return to his father before the Holy Spirit came. Knowing this from scriptures is when I ask the question "How did the thief recieve the Holy Spirit if it had not been given yet?" I have not had this answered with scriptures to back it up. I also ask How were the Old testament saints saved if the Holy Spirit did not endwell then? Again, No answer! What I find in scripture is that we are saved by faith in the work of Christ, not our own. The same faith that the old testament saints were saved-faith in the promise of Jesus. But then the Holy Spirit had not come to dwell inside a person. It was their faith that was counted unto them for righteousness. The thief was saved the same way the old testament saints were saved, through faith! The Holy Spirit had not been given at that time.This is my understanding so far. I am open minded enough to except the truth shown in scriptures.
    Dear friend, please do not become frustrated. This is a huge deal and there is alot involved. Dont be discouraged by people who become defensive. Everyone is diffrent we all learn in diffrent ways .Asking questions is a great way to learn. 1. the thief on the cross-but lets go back a littlelets look at John1:1John 11In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.So from this we learn that the (word) which is Christ was with God from the begining(katabole) -absolute begining (in him was life and life was the light of men) so they created everything together.5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.Here is the old testament God created his people and spoke with them and led them through prophets and various ways so it states in the old testament.However the people continued to sin and turn away from God.6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.So God sent John someone who had been prophesied about who could relate to the people and tell them that God in the flesh was coming.9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.[/FONT]I love this because it somes up so much... So Christ came so that anyone who would recieve him would have the powerto become the sons of God. Even to them that believe on his name.then they are born of God.So all this being said lets look at the thief: luke23:39-4439Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, £“If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”40But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42Then he said £to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”43And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”44Now it £was about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. 45Then the sun was £darkened, and the veil of the temple was torn in two. 46And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’”£ Having said this, He breathed His last.47So when the centurion saw what had happened, he glorified God, saying, “Certainly this was a righteous Man!”This is so awesome. In the old testament men would sacrifice animals and the blood shed would atone their sins.Here is Jesus hanging on the cross dying , one thief is blaspheming him and the other is a believer. He is a confessed believer.so he siad remember me today in your kingdom lord.Jesus tells him today you will be with me in paradise.Then he dies for the thiefs sins.And ours too. Then the thief went to heaven to dwell with the spirit.So, the spirit is for us who are living . Because the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. That is why we need the Holyspirit . and it is given upon believing.
     
  13. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    haanne, Are you saying everyone from Genesis til Jesus death recieved the Holy Spirit when they believed?
     
  14. haanne

    haanne New Member

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    no, im saying before Christ died it wasnt time for the holyspirit. After Christ died he left the spirit to lead and guide us as believers once we recieve Christ. Have you read any in Romans and Corinthians one and two. There are some great clarifacations in both of these books. P/s I love your zeal for the truth . -haanne
     
  15. haanne

    haanne New Member

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    1. god created man 2. man was sinful3. God made a plan to reconcile his ceation to himself 4. men sacrificed animals to atone for sins old test and part of new testament5.Jesus who was present from the begining had always been the plan6.via Adam and eve and Garden of Eden vs serpent trying to mess up bloodline7.at just the right time God sent his son so that none should perish.8. after the ultimate sacrifice the son left and the spirit would remain in the hearts of anyone who would believe in the Son.romans 56You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.[COLOR="Red"[/COLOR]
     
  16. haanne

    haanne New Member

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    Do you know the purpose of the Holyspirit?
     
  17. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    I do not know if I can answer that in a simple reply. He draws us to God.He convicts us of our sin.He indwells us at salvation through faith in Christ work on the cross.He leads us to all truth.He comforts.He empowers us to do the work God has called us to do.HE IS THE SPIRIT OF MY FATHER IN HEAVEN THAT INDWELLS ME AND WILL NEVER LEAVE ME!
     
  18. haanne

    haanne New Member

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    Amen ... amen ... amen ...and amen!!!
     
  19. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    haanne, Thank you for all your encouragement and patience with me. The Holy Spirit has a lot of work to do in me!
     
  20. Siskim

    Siskim New Member

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    ...it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." John 16:7"And behold I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be undued with power from on high." Luke 24:49Acts Chap. 1&2..."for John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses to me...." "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost..." People do debate and speculate and argue this subject intensely...no doubt. This baptism in the least is with the "Holy Ghost and Fire".....The big debate is do we receive this baptism at Salvation or after. What makes it difficult is that the disciples and believers in the upper room received it after they believed...but at the same time, this is when the Holy Spirit was first sent to the earth after Jesus left....so since the Holy Ghost is now who is with us in this world, as was promised, is this baptism automatic at Salvation or do we repent and then be baptised with the Holy Ghost...or...does this mean...if you repent you will be baptized or does it mean...repent and be saved and then be baptized?It's easy to stand and fight for what we think or believe...but if we are not sure, do we really want to convince others of what is not perfect positive?Maybe sometimes we argue, I mean debate..trying to convince ourselves mostly.Although mostly no one who is on the mind's plane will accept testimony as worth anything, I had the most amazing experience with this Baptism of Fire...I was as changed as Peter was after the upper room experience...many years ago. Before this I loved Jesus and loved Jesus again...but after this I distincly felt a new power, confidence, fearlessness, Boldness...and had a life changing experience vividly some time after I was saved. The details are clear and distinct even today. It was After this that we moved out to the streets and the drinking parties at the lake on saturday nights and preached to large groups of young people..some drunk...and prayed with groups of them. It was after this that I had a Boldness in the public that I did not have before. That I literally ...literally felt a blanketing...like a Comforter...and understood the scripture that says.."we have no need that any man teach us but ...this Teacher will reveal all things to us, yea, the deep things of God...Maybe I just had come into realization...of this Baptism that had already taken place...to me though it was clearly a new experience, a dramatic transformation...that was evident in me and in my outward life...proof of some change was visible even to others...and clearly to me!I have understood speaking in tongues for years, while many debate and debate this subject...I have seen evidence of this in my outward circumstances and life...when I have prayed this way...so no matter what the theological truth is...I understand anyway this Baptism...even if it was only my new "awareness" of it that brought the manifestations in my life. I know the moment that this change occurred...just like you know the moment you were saved...and the evidence followed immediately.I will not claim whether it occurs at Salvation or after, because it's a difficult subject in light of all the knowledge that is present about it...but it is very clear and evident to me and remains so and has remained so...as clearly as Salvation has. I can write a book about the wonders of this Baptism...and when you know you know because it's clearly evident in all your being and life...I think regardless of when this occurs, the signifigant thing is that we know because we have received and have and do know the resluts. For anyone who really has the desire or need or better said...wanting for the reality of this Baptism of the Holy ghost and Fire....I will not debate, but will try to help this person......siskim
     
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